What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[ttruscott]

It is inconsistent with being created in God’s Image and Likeness would entail spiritual blindness. Judaism doesn’t teach that Adam and Eve were spiritually oblivious and neither does Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Indeed but Eve's listening to the serpent and following his take on things proves she was spiritually blind to his evil and his nefarious purpose. Since I agree she couldn't have been created that way, I must ask, how did she get that way?* For her to be talking to him at all, unless she was ministering to him by GOD's will, she is already being sinful because we know the holy people of GOD cannot and do not commune with demons.

Revelation 3:17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. This verse teaches us so much: nakedness here is symbolic of evil, not nudity. The nakedness that is a symbol of evil is the reason for or at least aligned with spiritual blindness. And they are both connected here tightly with another symptom of being sinful, 'you do not realize,' which refers to not being ashamed, just like Adam and Eve.

[It also seems quite apropos that in Genesis we start with the first sinners and in Revelation we end with the last sinners and the message is the same: sinners are blind to spiritual truth which includes being blind to their nakedness / sin and are therefore not ashamed.]

It is also not a mistake that the word for naked is the same word used to describe the evil of the serpent as crafty and differ only in the vowel pointing put into the scripture c600 AD, `arm. In fact the verses could have been translated, "And the man and the woman were crafty and not ashamed. Now the serpent was more naked than all the other beasts..." And the the thing that suppressed the idea of their being already sinful when they were moved/sown (Matt 13:36-39) into their new bodies in the garden is a strong and abiding bias in favour of our being created here on earth at conception or birth.

So we have Eve in communion with a devil blindly and if she is not exhibiting sinfulness and idolatry, in what part of this scenario can we see her holiness? And where is GOD - has HE not promised to protect the way of the naive and innocent? I think it is time for a new study of this story as orthodoxy does not make sense.

*How she got that way is posted elsewhere...

[ttruscott]

Now, knowing how fair and just God is, he knew it was not their fault, that they were not responsible for this, we can rightly interpret that God WANTED this outcome. He wanted humanity to be raised in sin and shaped by iniquity! And that is exactly what happened to humanity.

This denial of GOD's holiness is not necessary since all we need to see are three things:
~GOD can't create evil, therefore the creatures must have created it by their free will.
~All are born in sin here like Adam and Eve, so their time of choice to sin must have been pre-earth.
~We are sown here into bodies, not created here, Matt 13:36-39.

[mickiel]

The true purpose for God determining the outcome of Eden, was to establish the need for Christ to come to earth; in Gen. 3:15 part of the curse God places on the serpent, is to get " His head bruised", or his leadership on earth taken away by Christ. The purpose of the garden of Eden, is again given in Gen. 3:22, where God again reveals it; " Behold, the man has become like us, KNOWING good and Evil." Which means before these events in Eden, the man was NOT " Like God." They did not know what good or evil was, so God had to teach them what it was, and he used the serpent to teach them.

This means God and Christ KNOW evil; now WHY do they know it?

Because they collaborated on its creation.

[wiploc]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

Spoken with great authority, but why should we believe it?

[mickiel]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

Spoken with great authority, but why should we believe it?

You have made an error in assuming why I post things, I don't care what you believe, I hold no interest in convincing anyone.

We don't look like God, we don't shape like God and we don't have the nature of God. God is not human. No one has seen God and the bible does not describe how he looks. His image has nothing to do with human looks. And no human acts like God. The only thing we can do that God can do is think. That's it, the comparison stops there. Anythingelse is fooling yourself.

[wiploc]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

Spoken with great authority, but why should we believe it?

You have made an error in assuming why I post things, I don't care what you believe, I hold no interest in convincing anyone.

We don't look like God, we don't shape like God and we don't have the nature of God. God is not human. No one has seen God and the bible does not describe how he looks. His image has nothing to do with human looks. And no human acts like God. The only thing we can do that God can do is think. That's it, the comparison stops there. Anythingelse is fooling yourself.

I'm going to assume you're not really a troll, and that you really are trying to communicate something.

You're not posting something like, "The answer to question seven is 83.2, but I'm not going to tell you what question seven is part of." No, you're really trying to be helpful, to share your knowledge.

So I'm asking you how we can learn to appreciate what you're sharing. How can we come to understand what you understand?

Don't just announce an answer that we can't see is right. Show your work. Tell us how we can stop fooling ourselves and follow in your footsteps to learn that, for instance, god's image has nothing to do with his looks.

[ttruscott]

The true purpose for God determining the outcome of Eden, was to establish the need for Christ to come to earth;

...whereas I would say that the purpose for God determining the outcome of Eden was to establish that HIS election promise of salvation was now being fulfilled in this world.

HE had no need for Christ to die unless HE falsely created someone evil and needed a saviour for them. The need for Christ to die was in response to some of HIS elect choosing by their free will to be evil in HIS sight AFTER YHWH promised them salvation if they ever did that.

[mickiel]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

Spoken with great authority, but why should we believe it?

You have made an error in assuming why I post things, I don't care what you believe, I hold no interest in convincing anyone.

We don't look like God, we don't shape like God and we don't have the nature of God. God is not human. No one has seen God and the bible does not describe how he looks. His image has nothing to do with human looks. And no human acts like God. The only thing we can do that God can do is think. That's it, the comparison stops there. Anythingelse is fooling yourself.

I'm going to assume you're not really a troll, and that you really are trying to communicate something.

You're not posting something like, "The answer to question seven is 83.2, but I'm not going to tell you what question seven is part of." No, you're really trying to be helpful, to share your knowledge.

So I'm asking you how we can learn to appreciate what you're sharing. How can we come to understand what you understand?

Don't just announce an answer that we can't see is right. Show your work. Tell us how we can stop fooling ourselves and follow in your footsteps to learn that, for instance, god's image has nothing to do with his looks.

You have made another error in judging me, I am not looking for a following. I am not saying I am right, I am just doing what you do; giving my view. I don't try to tell others how to think, and I am not fishing for appreciation.

When the bible states that we are created in God's image, but it never reveals how God looks, how can his image mean his looks? Are we now created in something invisible? The bible never reveals how God shapes, it only says God is a spirit. Humans are not spirit, we are physical flesh, so obviously we are not in some kind of spirit image of God. The only reasonable thing we have in common with God, is that we are conscious beings. We don't know if God has a type of body that looks human. A spirit does not have to have a " Body"; that is contradiction anyway; there is no such thing as a " Spirit - body"; spirit is spirit, flesh is flesh, John 3:6 is clear on that.

We don't know if God has a head, or arms or legs, or a torso, those things are human, God is not a human. God could have a form like a dragon, with 7 heads and 6 wings; we just don't know. He could be composed of a fire like substance and look like a ghost; looks is not his image, consciousness is his image. God is neither male or female, humans are, so image is nothing physical or some kind of gender. What does human males and females have in common- consciousness.

That is what a spirit is- consciousness; that is what our lives really are, consciousness. This body we have is just carrying our consciousness around.

[wiploc]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

Spoken with great authority, but why should we believe it?

You have made an error in assuming why I post things, I don't care what you believe, I hold no interest in convincing anyone.

We don't look like God, we don't shape like God and we don't have the nature of God. God is not human. No one has seen God and the bible does not describe how he looks. His image has nothing to do with human looks. And no human acts like God. The only thing we can do that God can do is think. That's it, the comparison stops there. Anythingelse is fooling yourself.

I'm going to assume you're not really a troll, and that you really are trying to communicate something.

You're not posting something like, "The answer to question seven is 83.2, but I'm not going to tell you what question seven is part of." No, you're really trying to be helpful, to share your knowledge.

So I'm asking you how we can learn to appreciate what you're sharing. How can we come to understand what you understand?

Don't just announce an answer that we can't see is right. Show your work. Tell us how we can stop fooling ourselves and follow in your footsteps to learn that, for instance, god's image has nothing to do with his looks.

You have made another error in judging me, I am not looking for a following. I am not saying I am right, I am just doing what you do; giving my view. I don't try to tell others how to think, and I am not fishing for appreciation.

When the bible states that we are created in God's image, but it never reveals how God looks, how can his image mean his looks? Are we now created in something invisible? The bible never reveals how God shapes, it only says God is a spirit. Humans are not spirit, we are physical flesh, so obviously we are not in some kind of spirit image of God. The only reasonable thing we have in common with God, is that we are conscious beings. We don't know if God has a type of body that looks human. A spirit does not have to have a " Body"; that is contradiction anyway; there is no such thing as a " Spirit - body"; spirit is spirit, flesh is flesh, John 3:6 is clear on that.

We don't know if God has a head, or arms or legs, or a torso, those things are human, God is not a human. God could have a form like a dragon, with 7 heads and 6 wings; we just don't know. He could be composed of a fire like substance and look like a ghost; looks is not his image, consciousness is his image. God is neither male or female, humans are, so image is nothing physical or some kind of gender. What does human males and females have in common- consciousness.

That is what a spirit is- consciousness; that is what our lives really are, consciousness. This body we have is just carrying our consciousness around.

Okay, I won't misjudge you any more. Rather, I'll put you on ignore. And I request that you do the same for me.

=

ETA: Can anybody tell me how to work the ignore function?

[mickiel]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

Spoken with great authority, but why should we believe it?

You have made an error in assuming why I post things, I don't care what you believe, I hold no interest in convincing anyone.

We don't look like God, we don't shape like God and we don't have the nature of God. God is not human. No one has seen God and the bible does not describe how he looks. His image has nothing to do with human looks. And no human acts like God. The only thing we can do that God can do is think. That's it, the comparison stops there. Anythingelse is fooling yourself.

I'm going to assume you're not really a troll, and that you really are trying to communicate something.

You're not posting something like, "The answer to question seven is 83.2, but I'm not going to tell you what question seven is part of." No, you're really trying to be helpful, to share your knowledge.

So I'm asking you how we can learn to appreciate what you're sharing. How can we come to understand what you understand?

Don't just announce an answer that we can't see is right. Show your work. Tell us how we can stop fooling ourselves and follow in your footsteps to learn that, for instance, god's image has nothing to do with his looks.

You have made another error in judging me, I am not looking for a following. I am not saying I am right, I am just doing what you do; giving my view. I don't try to tell others how to think, and I am not fishing for appreciation.

When the bible states that we are created in God's image, but it never reveals how God looks, how can his image mean his looks? Are we now created in something invisible? The bible never reveals how God shapes, it only says God is a spirit. Humans are not spirit, we are physical flesh, so obviously we are not in some kind of spirit image of God. The only reasonable thing we have in common with God, is that we are conscious beings. We don't know if God has a type of body that looks human. A spirit does not have to have a " Body"; that is contradiction anyway; there is no such thing as a " Spirit - body"; spirit is spirit, flesh is flesh, John 3:6 is clear on that.

We don't know if God has a head, or arms or legs, or a torso, those things are human, God is not a human. God could have a form like a dragon, with 7 heads and 6 wings; we just don't know. He could be composed of a fire like substance and look like a ghost; looks is not his image, consciousness is his image. God is neither male or female, humans are, so image is nothing physical or some kind of gender. What does human males and females have in common- consciousness.

That is what a spirit is- consciousness; that is what our lives really are, consciousness. This body we have is just carrying our consciousness around.

Okay, I won't misjudge you any more. Rather, I'll put you on ignore. And I request that you do the same for me.

Request denied, but peace on your journey.