What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[Divine Insight]

I agree with everything you've said, but for me it doesn't stop there. The absurdities continue on even after the "fall" had occurred.

It's Evil to be Naked

After their eyes were opened they realized they were naked and hid themselves because they now knew that being naked is evil.

What?

How could that be? If being naked is evil and morality is absolute, then it must have been evil even before the fall. So why were they naked to begin with if being naked is evil? This story is beyond absurd to the point where I believe that it's basically an insult to expect anyone to believe it or even take it seriously.

Why Didn't Adam and Eve Rebel Against God?

What did Adam and Eve do after the fall? Did they shout angrily at God proclaiming that thy refuse to obey him anymore? No, not even close.

To the contrary Eve confessed and explained everything to God including testifying against the evil serpent who had beguilded her. She wasn't screaming at God proclaiming that she is no longer interested in obeying him or cooperating with him. To the contrary she did precisely what every good Christian Girl is being asked to do. She confessed all her sins and turned in all the guilty parties. She should have been granted her salvation right on the spot.

Adam also told the truth. He confessed that he's just an idiot who was stupid enough to do whatever the serpent and the woman suggested. He should have blamed God for not having given him a better brain actually. But he didn't even do that. Instead he just confessed to being stupid. Again, not rebelling against God or proclaiming that he no longer wants to obey God. He too should have been exonerated from any wrong doing and granted salvation on the spot too.

Why was an Evil Serpent Required at All?

Would mankind have "fallen from grace" on his own?

Would Adam and Eve have secretly plotted to knowingly disobey God on their own? That would have made a more convincing stories actually. But alas no, that's not the Biblical story. Instead they had to be beguiled by an already evil serpent.

This brings up the serious question of whether humans would have EVER fallen from grace on their own free will choice without being beguiled by an already evil force. Why should mankind be blamed for having "fallen from grace" when there's no reason to believe that they would have ever done such a thing had they been left on their own.

And I agree, there's no way that this God didn't arrange for this "Fall" yet he curses the evil serpent to crawl on its belly and eat dirt like as if it had done something he didn't want it to do. That's a dead give-away right there that this story is not only fictionally, but it's extremely poorly written fiction to boot.

[mickiel]

There is no such thing as " The fall of man", Adam and Eve were clearly set up by God to fail, and God had a divine purpose in that, he was creating the " Need for Christ on earth." Adam and Eve were weak and unconverted way before they ever experienced the serpent. They reacted as God knew they would, and God wanted no other outcome.

[ttruscott]

Wow, a big task you set yourself to do... I'll follow your lead.

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions.

Excellent start.

First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

I too agree with this estimation.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical.

A quibble...they were created in the image of GOD as persons of which consciousness is a part but not the whole, methinks. It certainly wasn't physical.

In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point.

OR, they had some knowledge but were rejecting other aspects of good and evil they felt did not apply to their lives.

Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

I don't see how you reached the conclusion of this paragraph [in bold]. IF GOD created everyone as good and if some self created their evil nature by a free will rejection of HIM and HIS law then HE did not create the anyone evil at all and this verse supports that too.

Surely we can use the knowledge we get from other revelations to accept that GOD is righteous and in HIM is no wickedness at all Psalm 92:15, and GOD is light in whom is no darkness at all 1 John 1:5 so we can easily believe HE did not create anyone evil at all as it is not in HIM to come out, in fact, it is much easier to believe that than HE did create evil.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth.

Yes, I have to agree this must have been HIS plan. I do wonder at where and how the rest of the beasts of the field got their mild case of sinfulness since I have concluded that GOD cannot create evil.

Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

Yes, understood, except we do not have any reason yet why HE would do such a thing.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

Yes, I agree they were spiritually blind but I also see that blindness and nakedness are both used to denote the sinfulness of a person, Rev 3:17

Can nakedness refer to their unclothed state as GOD created them? Not at all because 1. they were created nude and told them to procreate so there can be no sin in being unclothed with each other and 2. when their eyes opened they saw their sin, their nakedness not their eating, so nakedness must refer symbolically to their being in a sinful state and from this comes their blindness.

So I agree they did not have the Spirit of GOD except in HIS grace because they were already sinful/naked before they ate.

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

What happened is what is said to have happened; the sinful couple had their eyes opened to their sinfulness called nakedness and became ashamed. They were not ashamed earlier because they did not accept that they were sinners until they were convicted of guilt by not being able to obey their GOD's command. Thus the law convicted them of their sin, Romans 3:20 The law simply shows us how sinful we are. by our inability to keep it. The shame caused them to seek repentance and though they did it all wrong like a sinners do, GOD took advantage of their repentance to give them skin coats symbolic of Christ's death on behalf of their sin.

Thus this story, far from being about the fall or the first sin, it is about the first redemption and rebirth from sin. The fact that this means that A&E were not created here as GOD does not create sinners, but were moved here from a spirit place is not surprising as Jesus told us all about being sown into the earth, not created as the devil sows also as found in the explanation (stripped of al symbolism) in Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.�

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear. ...with a focus upon v 37-39, the most ignored verses in the whole bible as so few have ears to hear this teaching that has been rejected for so long by the church.

I think too there is a hint at what their sin might have been. Since it is obvious that the serpent came into the garden with evil intent, he was obviously on YHWH's black list and condemned and any communication with him would be idolatry but here goes Eve having theological discussions with him about life and death matters and following his lead as to what the command might mean just as if he was her Pastor. Clearly she was in a state of idolatry or GOD was very derelict in HIS duty to protect HIS young protegé from an evil she did not understand. IF she hadn't already been blinded by her sin she would have asked her GOD about what the serpent was on about since she and GOD would still have been friends.

Therefore I believe we can see that her sin was idolatry of the non-elect reprobate, probably from rejecting YHWH's command to come out from among them so they could be judged, and Adam's sin was idolatry of her over GOD's command to refrain from communion with sinners like Eve as also referenced by the fact that she gave him the fruit (of idolatry) and he ate. The idolatry of the reprobate is also suggested by the fact that we are told we must live with the reprobate tares until we are mature (holy) which suggests their sinful behaviour will have some part to play in changing our minds about their evil so that we too are finally ready to condemn them. Eve for one will not listen to them ever again!

I hope you find my suggestions helpful...

[wiploc]

One of the most distorted events in human history,

Myth isn't history.

is the events in Eden and what really happened there.

I like Asimov's theory that this myth is a complaint about the agricultural revolution:

Was a time when we traveled about hunting and gathering, hardly working at all. The world was our garden. Now we have to hoe and weed all day, earning our bread by the sweat of our brows. How come we no longer live the easy life in the garden? We must have been bad.

The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan.

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

According to the story, he made us in his image. Figure two legs, a head, hair, like that.

If you, for some reason, want to retreat from the plain reading of the text, you can substitute "spirit" or "consciousness" if you want to. But there's no way to say that one interpretation is right and another is wrong.

In the original story, god made us look like him.

The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means.

Only if you want to pretend that. There's no reason to insist that is is somehow true.

The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

I believe this was long before Satan was invented.

Personally, I like the theory that the serpent was god himself. More subtle than the beasts god had made, indeed.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception.

What deception? The god lied; the serpent told the truth.

He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do.

And why not? If doubting and disobeying god is evil, and if Eve didn't have knowledge of evil, then she didn't know not to disobey.

And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

It was all part of the plan.

[mickiel]

In Gen. 3:5 we again see that Adam and Eve were spiritually blind BEFORE they confronted satan, and satan KNEW they were blind to his deceptions; " For God KNOWS that the day you eat, your eyes shall be opened and THEN you will know the difference between good and evil." God sent the serpent to a blind couple who had no chance at all; even the devil knew they were blind, it took the serpent perhaps seconds to deceive them, and it was over!

Obviously heavenly premeditated. It was academic.

[JLB32168]

In Gen. 3:5 we again see that Adam and Eve were spiritually blind BEFORE they confronted satan, and satan KNEW they were blind to his deceptions; " For God KNOWS that the day you eat, your eyes shall be opened and THEN you will know the difference between good and evil."

It is inconsistent with being created in God’s Image and Likeness would entail spiritual blindness. Judaism doesn’t teach that Adam and Eve were spiritually oblivious and neither does Eastern Orthodox Christianity. It teaches that Adam and Eve only lacked the fullness of the knowledge of good and evil. They possessed the ability to deliberate between good and evil and that is why they are responsible for their poor choices.

They had the pricking of conscience at being tempted to disobey and they didn’t heed the image and likeness in which they were created.

[mickiel]

In Gen. 3:5 we again see that Adam and Eve were spiritually blind BEFORE they confronted satan, and satan KNEW they were blind to his deceptions; " For God KNOWS that the day you eat, your eyes shall be opened and THEN you will know the difference between good and evil."

It is inconsistent with being created in God’s Image and Likeness would entail spiritual blindness. Judaism doesn’t teach that Adam and Eve were spiritually oblivious and neither does Eastern Orthodox Christianity. It teaches that Adam and Eve only lacked the fullness of the knowledge of good and evil. They possessed the ability to deliberate between good and evil and that is why they are responsible for their poor choices.

They had the pricking of conscience at being tempted to disobey and they didn’t heed the image and likeness in which they were created.

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means. God thinks,we can think, and humans are not like God in ANY other way.

[JLB32168]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means.

And you’re certainly free to believe that; however, it isn’t the teaching of ancient and modern Judaism and it isn’t the teaching of most of Christendom which says that while man didn’t have all knowledge of good and evil, he had some – certainly enough to determine that disobedience was wrong.

If man didn’t know the difference then he couldn’t be held responsible for his wrong acts.

[mickiel]

Being in God's image and likeness, only means we can think; that's all it means.

And you’re certainly free to believe that; however, it isn’t the teaching of ancient and modern Judaism and it isn’t the teaching of most of Christendom which says that while man didn’t have all knowledge of good and evil, he had some – certainly enough to determine that disobedience was wrong.

If man didn’t know the difference then he couldn’t be held responsible for his wrong acts.

That is exactly what I am saying, Adam and Eve were completely blind to satan, they were NOT responsible for what happened, God was! Judasim and Christianity are just wrong about this. In Gen. 3:7, " And the eyes of both of them were OPENED!" Which means BEFORE this eating event, they were CLOSED! That is simple obvious interpretation, nothing a theologian needs to explain; its right there for any to read. Their eyes, ( or MINDS were closed BEFORE this event!). Now, again obviously; and IF we use common sense and avoid the deception of religions, their eyes being closed does NOT mean they were physically blind; that is nonsense deduction. It means they were spiritual AND morally blind! They were dumb and simple minded. They had absolutely no intelligent training from God. There is absolutely no evidence to support God teaching them a lot of things. ZERO!

Now, knowing how fair and just God is, he knew it was not their fault, that they were not responsible for this, we can rightly interpret that God WANTED this outcome. He wanted humanity to be raised in sin and shaped by iniquity! And that is exactly what happened to humanity.