Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #58]

In case I missed it, has anyone posted their comments on the OP?

.

Well, you never responded to my posts 29-36, although you earlier said you'd get to all 8 questions (having previously responded to 3 of them).

[onewithhim]

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

Because Jesus is Thomas' God. He's just not his AMLIGHTY God.

The disciples didn’t make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser Gods; they believed in one God and Thomas calls Jesus that.

The disciples did indeed make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser gods. To the Greek-speaking people of the disciples' day, the term "god" meant merely an honored, powerful person. This could be kings, governors, judges....anyone in a high position. Jesus was, in that sense, a "god" to Thomas.

Other than that, there is no other reference that a disciple made to Jesus being "God." Nowhere. When John wrote these things down, it would have been the perfect opportunity to clearly state that Jesus were God, if this was true, but there is no other reference to that idea. Instead, John once again speaks of Jesus as the Son of God. He even writes that Jesus has a God which he is about to return to.

"Many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:30,31, NASB)

"Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."'" (John 20:17, NASB) This fact was reiterated even when Jesus returned to heaven. He said:

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

[onewithhim]

5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

Nothing in response

I'm not sure which Psalm you are referring to. But it's plain to see that God and His Son are two distinct individuals, in Psalm 2. "The kings of the earth take their stand and high officials have massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one, saying: 'Let us tear their bands apart and cast their cords away from us!' The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah himself will hold them in derision....Saying 'I, even I, have installed my King upon Zion, my holy mountain.' Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: 'You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.' Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter's vessel you will dash them to pieces.' ....Kiss the son, that he may not become incensed and you may not perish from the way..."

It is speaking of Jehovah and His Son, Christ Jesus. The Son is obviously subservient to the Father who has anointed and installed him as King. There is no room there to assume that Jesus is also God.

[onewithhim]

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

Jesus identified as the "first and the last" from the DEAD and not in the absolute (ie "first and last" of everything).

The Ancient of Days is YHWH The Father not Jesus.

The author of Revelation (1:17-18, 2:8, 22:13) doesn’t say Jesus is the first and the last from the dead. He says he is the first and the last. He then says he was dead, resurrected, and is alive forever, but that’s not the reason given for being the first and the last. This is more clear in that the last verse that uses this title (22:13) says nothing about him being dead and alive again. These are clearly two different thoughts, not Jesus is X because of Y.

And the author places Jesus as the one like the son of man that Daniel identifies with the Ancient of Days, so the author is claiming Jesus is the Ancient of Days.

"The first and the last" is written differently than "Alpha and Omega." You can see that if you look at an Interlinear Bible. Jesus is the first and the last, and Jehovah is Alpha and Omega. At 22:13 Jehovah is saying He is coming quickly. It doesn't indicate that it is referring to Jesus. Jehovah comes quickly in association with Christ Jesus, as they both are said to come, at Malachi 3: 1 and 5. In verse 5 Jehovah says: "And I will come near to you people for judgment"...Jehovah of armies has said.

Jesus can't be both the Ancient of Days and the one like the son of man. The son of man "gained access " to the Ancient of Days and was "brought close before that One." Jesus is definitely not the Ancient of Days. It is Jehovah, who GAVE Jesus rulership and dignity and kingdom.

[onewithhim]

7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

Because any "worship"*, praise, honor, glory, and power Jesus recieves is due to his position as the Son of God (inferior to Almighty God, the Father).

* in the bible the original term rendered worship in most bible can be rendered hommage (respectful sign of submission)

There is a clear difference between worship, which is reserved only for God (Exod 20:5 and all over the Hebrew scripture) and paying respect to various humans. Rev 5:11-14 has every creature worshiping the one on the throne and the lamb with glory, something God doesn’t share with another. This is sharing the same glory. If your view was correct, this would be a scene where they are just worshiping the one on the throne and not the Lamb, but they aren’t.

I agree with what JehovahsWitness posted to you about this. It can't be any clearer.

[onewithhim]

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Jesus didn't double down in the false accusation that he claimed equality with YHWH ALMIGHTY GOD the Father. He "doubles down" on his original claim...
JOHN 10:36b

"... I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Why isn’t that part of Jesus claiming to be God?

Because he didn't claim to be God! He said he was God's Son.

[The Tanager]

Thank you for your responses. I love hearing the views of others to challenge my own. I’d love to continue the discussion with you on each question, but (sadly) understand if you just want to respond once and move on. If you want to continue exchanging our thoughts, I thought I’d summarize my responses to your response on the first 3 questions as well.

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

You brought up Kittel’s definition and I said that definition didn’t fit your view. The glory Jesus shared with God before creation couldn’t be from it making Jesus impressive to men since men weren’t created yet.


2. How can Jesus pour out the spirit of God on his disciples (John 20:22) if he isn't God?

You said Jesus can pour out the Spirit because he asked God to allow Him to do that, but that isn’t what the text says. Jesus doesn’t say “I prayed to God, and He’s pouring out the Spirit through me” or something like that. In Joel 2:28 (which prophesies the pouring out of the Spirit) attributes it to God. It doesn’t say “I, God, will allow another to pour it out” or something like that.


3. How can Jesus give the right to forgive sins (John 20:23) if he isn't God?

You meant (I think) that God gave Jesus the right to forgive sins. My point in response was that Jesus owns the authority, He doesn’t forgive in the name of God; He just forgives. The disciples are given the authority to forgive sins, but they say it’s in the name of Jesus, instead of owning it as their power.


4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

The disciples did indeed make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser gods. To the Greek-speaking people of the disciples' day, the term "god" meant merely an honored, powerful person. This could be kings, governors, judges....anyone in a high position. Jesus was, in that sense, a "god" to Thomas.

What evidence do you have that the Jewish disciples, at this time, called honored, powerful people “god”?


5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

I'm not sure which Psalm you are referring to.

You brought up Mark 15:34 when Jesus cries from the cross “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”. Jesus is quoting the first line of Psalm 22 for those who are watching Him die. The psalm begins with feeling abandoned by God and ends with praising God for His great works. This seems an apt psalm to quote His followers watching this unfold; not a statement about His identity as God or not.

But it's plain to see that God and His Son are two distinct individuals, in Psalm 2.

Why do you think this is directly talking about Jesus and not the king of Israel? They were called anointed ones as well. Foreign rulers were, as well, for that matter.


6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

"The first and the last" is written differently than "Alpha and Omega." You can see that if you look at an Interlinear Bible. Jesus is the first and the last, and Jehovah is Alpha and Omega.

According to Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah is called the First and the Last, which is a title given to Jesus in Rev 1:17-18 and 2:8.

At 22:13 Jehovah is saying He is coming quickly. It doesn't indicate that it is referring to Jesus. Jehovah comes quickly in association with Christ Jesus, as they both are said to come, at Malachi 3: 1 and 5. In verse 5 Jehovah says: "And I will come near to you people for judgment"...Jehovah of armies has said.

I’ve already shared why I think it is referring to Jesus, including no change before verse 16. Malachi 3:1-5 is the Lord talking and the messenger is John the Baptist, not Jesus.

Jesus can't be both the Ancient of Days and the one like the son of man. The son of man "gained access " to the Ancient of Days and was "brought close before that One." Jesus is definitely not the Ancient of Days. It is Jehovah, who GAVE Jesus rulership and dignity and kingdom.

No, I’m saying the one “like a son of man” in Rev 1:13 and 14:14, that is Jesus, is described in ways that mirror Daniel’s Ancient of Days in Dan 7)


7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

I agree with what JehovahsWitness posted to you about this. It can't be any clearer.

I responded to JW that supports your view isn’t clearly true. Rev 5:13 still has every creature worshiping the Father and Jesus with the exact same words in the exact same way with no distinction made between worshiping God and paying homage to Jesus.


8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Because he didn't claim to be God! He said he was God's Son.

There are various titles for God, so “God’s Son” isn’t necessarily not a claim to divinity simply because it isn’t the title “God”. The Jewish leaders take his response to be doubling down on blasphemy, so that shows Jews saw “Son of God” as claiming divinity.

When questioned Jesus didn’t say, no, I’m claiming to be a ‘god’ like in Psalm 82:6 (which he quotes), but distinguishes his claim from that use of ‘god’.

[Capbook]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

Jesus calls the Father my God in John 20:17 and to others verses you quote because He humbled himself, taking upon Him the form of a servant. Phil 2:17. That is His human nature.
Let me cite Calvin's Commentary on John 20:17

Christ calls Him his God, in so far as, by
taking upon him the form of a servant, he humbled himself, (Phil 2:7.)
This is, therefore, peculiar to his human nature, but is applied to his whole person, on account of the unity, because he is both God and Man. As to the second clause, in which he says that he ascends to his Father and our Father, there is also a diversity between him and us; for he is the Son of God by nature, while we are the sons of God only by adoption; but the grace which we obtain through him is so firmly established, that it cannot be shaken by any efforts of the devil, so as to hinder us from always calling him our Father, who hath adopted us through his Only-begotten Son.
(from Calvin's Commentaries, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2005-2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

[JehovahsWitness]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

Of course all glory comes from God. This does not mean that the copy or the replica is equal to the original or the source. The light bulb cannot be equal to the electcity plant that produced its electricity.

When Israel set out from Egypt, God appeared in cloud and fire/light (Exod 13:20-22), it looked like a consuming fire on Mount Sinai (Exod 24:17), when Moses comes down from the mount his face was radiant from this glory and he had to veil his face (34:29-35), the cloud and light fills the tabernacle (Exod 40), Isaiah talks about it (Isa 4:5), and so does Ezekiel (Ezek 1, 10, others). This is the imagery called upon by the writer of Hebrews.

The author describes Jesus as the actual radiance, the light itself, not some copy or replica.

But not the source. The source of all true glory is the Almighty: that Jesus is a reflection of God's glory does not make him equal in rank or authority to the Father.

[JehovahsWitness]

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

I would truly appreciate an answer to my question to you here; maybe you missed it in the last post. When you say Jesus taught about lesser gods, are you talking about John 10 or a different passage?

You must have missed it: post #37 viewtopic.php?p=1147790#p1147790