Hell

[Mick]

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

[Monta]

[Replying to post 48 by BusB]

It would seem that places like Revelation 14:11 are speaking only of the smoke remaining after that process is finished and the torment or testing completed. For it is the smoke of their torment which ascends up for ever and ever.

Yes, I have had that thought.

I am trying to figure out exactly what Rev. 14:11 and Rev. 20:10 mean regarding eternal conscious torment. I am inclined to believe in unconditional immortality (annihilation) but these verses just don't seem to align with it.
God bless,
Mick

Verse 10. And the Devil that seduced them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ages of ages.

Signifies those who are in lusts of evils of life and loves of falsirities of doctrine.. The beast and the false prophet and the devil which seduced them means all the evils of life and falsities combined.
Lake of fire is hell where evderyone is tormented by their own loves and its lusts. There are degrees torment according to degrees of the love of evil and falsity.

14:11
'And the smoke of their torment shall go up for ages of ages' signifies torment from self love and the pride in their own intelligence. Fire love of self. brimstone lusts derived from it. This is with those who are in faith without love.

This is pretty close to how Swedenborg said it.

[Mick]

[Replying to Monta]

This is pretty close to how Swedenborg said it.

Thanks for your comments Monta. I find it a fascinating study and hope that I will come to a conclusion one of these days. I go back and forth continually.

God bless,
Mick

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 48 by BusB]

It would seem that places like Revelation 14:11 are speaking only of the smoke remaining after that process is finished and the torment or testing completed. For it is the smoke of their torment which ascends up for ever and ever.

Yes, I have had that thought.

I am trying to figure out exactly what Rev. 14:11 and Rev. 20:10 mean regarding eternal conscious torment. I am inclined to believe in unconditional immortality (annihilation) but these verses just don't seem to align with it.

God bless,
Mick

Revelation 20:10  “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.�

There at Revelation 10:10 the Greek word for torment is “basanizo� which comes directly from “basanos�. So much for my idea about it meaning testing as of metal unless the devil is forever more tested.

1 Timothy 6:16 tells us that Jesus is the only one God blessed with imortality, at least at the present time. So that rules out that the devil is immortal. It must be something to do with the thought of jailers and imprisonment to a result just as onewithhim said.

I searched further on that since my post regarding it and I did find that a related Greek word, “basanistais�, is translated as jailer at Matthew 18:34 in some Bibles. The idea that this is because a part of a jailer's responsibility was to torment prisoners I find to be flawed in that the Law forbade such cruelty even against enemy nations when conquering them. Therefore it has to be that the permanent state of confinement is what constitutes the “torment.� After all, even if law-defying Israelite judges strayed from the law to begin literally tormenting prisoners, God would not break his own law. His Law even forbids the torment of lower beast.

Those who claim that God sanctions tormenting anyone do not know that Old Law. A person suffering torment of their own making is a different story. That is only allowed because it is a part of reaping what we sow and can bring about repentance. But if we don't repent then we eventually die and then all that is left is the smoke from off of that torment.

We see that death is equated with imprisonment at Psalms 102:1920 “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did Jehovah behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;�

[tam]

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]

Peace to you OC!

I really liked your post.

But just to clarify one point for the sake of accuracy:

Its specifically saying that if you don't believe in him you won't be living forever.

The verse is states that if you DO believe in Him, then you WILL be living forever.



The verse itself does not actually speak to those who do not believe in Him. People make the implication that if those who believe in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life, it must mean that those who do not believe in him shall perish and not receive everlasting life.

But that is not necessarily so.





But to everything else, well said.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I believe that the verse DOES mean that those who don't believe will be destroyed. OC's entire post is very good.

His post is good. But much of Christendom uses that verse in John 3:16 to state that all those who did not believe in Christ before they died, will perish (eternally).


But that is incorrect.

Some did not believe (during their lifetime), but will be resurrected to life (at the second resurrection) based upon their deeds as recorded in their individual scrolls. Christians are resurrected (or changed) at the first resurrection (everyone else who has died are resurrected at the second resurrection). Revelation 20

Obviously they are no longer non-believers, since they will be seeing Christ for themselves. (and they will have been resurrected from the dead, which doesn't leave much room for doubt that everything has happened just as He said it would and He has done everything He said He would do)

Same goes for those people who are still alive (but who were not believers) when Christ returns. The King invites some of them (the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable, based upon what they did for even a least one of His brothers) into the Kingdom. Obviously, they are ALSO no longer non-believers at this time. They are seeing and speaking to Christ.


They do not reign with Christ for a thousand years of His eternal reign (as His Bride does), but they are still invited into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom.

**


That is all I meant.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Left Site]

Things which I find interesting to consider concerning this subject of "Hell" are as follows:

Leviticus 19:33  And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

Proverbs 12:10  A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

It was the Egyptians who tormented prisoners: Exodus 1:11  “Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.�

The principle Jehovah prescribed for the Israelite was that they not do things as their cruel Egyptian taskmasters did: Exodus 22:21  Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Surely Jehovah wanted his people to stand out as different from the Philistines who tormented their prisoners: Judges 16:5  And the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and said unto her, Entice him, and see wherein his great strength lieth, and by what means we may prevail against him, that we may bind him to afflict him: and we will give thee every one of us eleven hundred pieces of silver.

The spirit of God's law is alive and how we interpret his law therefore acts like a mirror able to reflect who we ourselves are on the inside. When we think we see that Jehovah sanctions us to act with a cruelty that defies what is moral it is our own selves that we are seeing and not God or his perfect law. This tests our faith so that we know if our faith is like that of Abraham, who rightly knew, “That be far from thee to do after this manner, …. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?� Genesis 18:25

The faithful young Elihu knew this and told Job: “Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.� Job 34:10 And we should know that, also, if we have faith like that of Abraham, as did Elihu. Throughout the book of Psalms we find that it is the wicked who sanction doing such evil.

There are a few different ways that men have become trapped into this false belief that God literally torments certain ones perpetually as punishment for sin, such as by literal fire. One such way is the errant belief that literally all men who ever lived will be resurrected to judgment day. We can ponder that belief even against the lone book of Psalms and see that it is untrue. Right away we run into our first clue:

[Now, “Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.�, is actually speaking of something different from those in general who will or will not be standing in the judgment. Those in “the congregation of the righteous� are the of the first resurrection spoken of at Revelation 20:5-6. I am not going to speak more about them for now.]

Psalms 1:5  “Therefore the wicked shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.�

Why is that the wicked shall not stand in the judgment? Is the Psalmist saying that the wicked will be there in the judgment but will fall? Or is he saying that they will not be there at all?

Psalms 1:6  “For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous; But the way of the wicked shall perish.�

The Psalmist's words in verse 6 seem to be telling us that the wicked will not be there at all but let us not be hasty and just hold that thought as we move on.

Next we see what happens to our present day kings and nobles during Armageddon: Psalms 2:10-12
10  “Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11  Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
12  Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, For his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.�

What happens to them? They perish. What does perish mean? It means “they are gone forever.� They will not be resurrected to judgment because they have already received their final judgment.

Let us see if that continues to hold true:

Psalms 9:5- 6  “Thou hast rebuked the nations, thou hast destroyed the wicked; Thou hast blotted out their name for ever and ever. The enemy are come to an end, they are desolate for ever; And the cities which thou hast overthrown, The very remembrance of them is perished.�

That rebuke of nations is said to happen at Armageddon, before the commencement of judgment day. And what happens to the wicked? Their name is blotted out for ever and ever. No name means no resurrection. No name means no one to call forth in a resurrection.

The wicked above in Psalms 9:5-6 are contrasted in verse 18 to the needy and the poor who will not be forgotten by Jehovah. The needy and the poor are made to suffer by the wicked but Jehovah will soon put an end to that. Psalms 82:4  “Rescue the poor and needy: Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.� Thus the contrast is that these wicked ones are destroyed and forgotten with no hope of being resurrected.

Speaking concerning this present life: Psalms 92:7  “When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever.�

Psalms 145:20  “Jehovah preserveth all them that love him; But all the wicked will he destroy.�

I skipped over a lot. So if you go through the Psalms verse by verse, there is more there which cinches the conclusion that those who are judged to be wicked right now in this life die that first death and never live again. No eternal burning with a pagan hell fire. Just the endless nothingness of death awaits them. If they are going to escape that they have to change their hearts now while it is yet possible.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And did you actually look up any cross references for the above in an Greek Lexicon or an interlinear? Did you even googe?

Yes, if you check your interlinear you will find that it is quite clear. {snip}
Mick

Funny because I came across the following...








Would you like to make a comment about the above entries?


JW

[Mick]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness


Funny because I came across the following...

Regarding G930,

Thayers dictionary says
"1) one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack
1a) an inquisitor, torturer also used of a jailer doubtless because the business of torturing was also assigned to him".

Strong's dictionary says,
From G928; a torturer: - tormentor.

God bless,
Mick

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 57 by Mick]

Duly noted. But my question was: Do you have any comment about the entries *I* found?

Would you like to make a comment about the above entries?


JW

[Mick]

[Replying to post 57 by Mick]

Duly noted. But my question was: Do you have any comment about the entries *I* found?

I didn't read the Google links but the images you posted say much the same as the quotes I mentioned. The NASEC says much the same: "from G928; a torturer: - torturers (1)."

So, three out of the three dictionaries I have say the same thing.

Besides that, the mention of burning sulphur indicates to me that the word means more than jailer.

Having said that, I think it is possible that the torture will end. The smoke of their torment may just refer to the memory of it all going on forever, like the destruction of Edom in Isa 34:10.

God bless,
Mick

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 59 by Mick]

Was there any mention of the word "jailor" in any of the entries I posted? If so, what do you make of the explanations thereof?