Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[kjw47]

Since you believe Jesus is a true god, does this mean you believe there are two gods?

There are more than two gods, there are MANY gods.

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

For even though there are what are called gods, whether in the Heavens or in The Earth, as there are many gods and many lords

None being called god small g is God capitol G. There is only one God=YHWH(Jehovah). Jesus serves and worships YHWH(Jehovah)

[MissKate13]

What would a false god be to you?

Thanks for your question!
In my humble opinion, a false god would be the exact opposite of our true God.

Our God by nature is love, righteousness, holiness, truth, grace and mercy.

A false god by nature would be the exact opposite: hate, unrighteousness, falsehood, no grace, and merciless.

Interesting way of considering what a false god is.

According to your concept ... would the goddess of mercy of Buddhism be a "true god"?

There is only ONE true GOD: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All other gods are false.

I’ve answered your questions. Now please answer mine.

Is Jesus true God or a false god?

[MissKate13]

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

A true god.

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I’m happy to know you believe Jesus is/was a true god. And for the record, whether a lower case or capital G is before the word god makes no difference to me. Capital letters were not used in the original language of the Greek extant manuscripts.

Since you believe Jesus is a true god, does this mean you believe there are two gods?

There is only one True Almighty God. While Jesus is a mighty spirit being, a god even, he is second to Jehovah the Almighty. Jesus is not the True Almighty God or even equal to his Father. Jesus is never referenced to as the True God or a True God.

Satan is a god and his demons are gods in that they are mighty and powerful. People even worship them. People even worship angels as gods and Jesus as god but this is wrong according to Deuteronomy 6:10, Matthew 4:10 and Revelation 22:9. None of these can hold a candle to who Jehovah is according to Psalms 83:18.

Is Jesus a true or false god?

[MissKate13]

I have a copy of the Kingdom Interlinear, which I use regularly along with lexicons when I’m want to know how the original language reads and what it means.
... What is your opinion of the NWT adding “other” to the word of God?

If you have and use Interlinears and lexicons (which you should if you are a serious student of the bible), you know all translators add words to the target language to render their translations understandable and accurate.

I do use interlinears and lexicons, and I am aware that translators add words to make the text more understandable, but it becomes a problem when those words change the meaning of a passage.

A good example would be Ephesians 1:13. Compare the NIV with the NKJV.

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,”. (NIV)

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,” (NKJV)

Do you see the difference? Look at the original language. It is obvious that the NIV is a biased version. The translators were pushing their doctrine of faith alone.

For example, the greek word for "thing" is not in the text at Colossians 1:16 at all, yet most translators have added that word ("things") at least two times.

I agree. The word “thing” is not in the original language, The KI has it in brackets, and they use it in their English translation as all translations do to make the verse more understandable. The word “other,” however is neither in the original language, nor is it in brackets in the Kingdom Interlinear. No other English translation uses “other” in the Colossians passage. Therefore, I conclude the NWT shows bias just as the NIV does in Ephesians 1:13.

So I ask again. Are you okay with the NWT adding the word “other” to the Colossians 1 passage?

I know you are not going to contest the English translation you use never adds words that are not in the original text, that would simply be untrue. I see nothing untoward with the adding of the word "other" to Col 1:16 but if you do, maybe you can see yourself to writing in a sentence or two as to why you see it as problematic

.

My response is written in previous paragraphs.

Adding words that change the meaning of a passage are very problematic. The Holy Spirit, through His
pen men gave dire warnings against such practice. Adding the word “other” changes the meaning of the passage. It implies that Jesus was first created and then He created other things, yet the passage itself says no such thing.

Have a blessed day,
Kate

[JehovahsWitness]

TO BRACKET OR NOT TO BRACKET

The word “other,” however is neither in the original language, nor is it in brackets in the Kingdom Interlinear.

So part of your argument is the lack of brackets in the NWT!? Are you suggesting all bibles should put brackests around [ALL] the added words? Does any bible translation bracket all their added words?

What is this reference to "the kingdom interlinear", are you refering to The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures 1969 pub by the Jehovahs Witness WATCHTOWER SOCIETY? If so, there are indeed brackets around [other] in verse 16 of Colossians chapter 1

This is quite a bizare criticism and as it stands one that isn't even based in fact since the Watchtower translators do use brackets in their intelinear (1969) at Col 1:16.

The use of brackets to alert readers to added words is not one systematically done in any translation. Translators (including JWs) have chosen to use brackets on occassions but since such brackets are not part of the original greek text nobody can legitimately reproach a translator if they choose against their use.

Anyone with an Interlinear, a concordance or a basic knowledge of Greek can easily find which words a translator has added to their verson, with or without the help of brackets.

[JehovahsWitness]

Adding words that change the meaning of a passage are very problematic.

Okay I agree. Are you claiming "other" changes the intended meaning of Col 1:16. If so, please state

(a) state what you believe to be the writers intended meaning (with supporting text/argumentation)

(b) demonstrate how the word "other" deviates from (a). Supporting reference to greek grammar would add weight to your argument.

JW

...when differences of opinion arise regarding various translations, Hebrew and Greek sources will have a greater authority.

[MissKate13]

How is firstborn defined in standard academic Greek lexicons?

Prototokos

• the firstborn of man or beast; of Christ, the first born of all creation - Thayer's Greek Lexicon

• From protos and the alternate of tikto; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively) -- firstbegotten(-born). - Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

QUESTION: What did Paul mean when he refered to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)?

Some have suggested that since the scriptures have examples of the term "firstborn" (prototokos ) denoting preeminence that Paul meant Christ was preeminent over creation without being part of said creation. But note the folowing ...

The term "firstborn" (prototokos) occurs 128 times in the Septuagint and 8 times in the NT and at no time is it used to denote someone "supreme" or "preeminent" of a group he himself does NOT belong to. For example, Genesis 49:3, "Ruben, thou art my first-born [prototokos] ... and the first [arkhe - 'beginning'] of my children." - Septuagint Version. So Reuben was preminent but of the group of the children of Israel to which he (Reuben) also belonged.

CONCLUSION Even if Paul *is* saying Jesus is "preeminent" he is still saying he (Jesus) is preeminent in a group he (Jesus) belonged to - in short that Jesus is the GREATEST of all the CREATED beings.




JW

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Would you agree that firstborn refers also to rank and/or position? For example, in Romans 8:29 “the firstborn of many brethren” or Colossians 1:18 “firstborn from the dead”

Romans 8:29
◄ 4416. prototokos ►
Strong's Concordance
prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Definition: first-born
Usage: first-born, eldest.

Colossians 1:15
◄ 4416. prototokos ►
Strong's Concordance
prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Definition: first-born
Usage: first-born, eldest.

Colossians 1:18
◄ 4409. próteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
próteuó: to have the first place
Original Word: πρωτεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: próteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (prote-yoo'-o)
Definition: to have the first place
Usage: I have preeminence, am chief, am first.

Does the definition of firstborn ever include “created?”

[JehovahsWitness]

No other English translation uses “other” in the Colossians passage.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people")is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so; it alleges if many believe it so, it is so.

...when differences of opinion arise regarding various translations, Hebrew and Greek sources will have a greater authority.

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[MissKate13]

Since you believe Jesus is a true god, does this mean you believe there are two gods?

There are more than two gods, there are MANY gods.

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

For even though there are what are called gods, whether in the Heavens or in The Earth, as there are many gods and many lords

None being called god small g is God capitol G. There is only one God=YHWH(Jehovah). Jesus serves and worships YHWH(Jehovah)

There are no lower case letters in the original language. All letter appear to be the same size. Is Jesus a true or false god?

[MissKate13]

No other English translation uses “other” in the Colossians passage.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people")is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so; it alleges if many believe it so, it is so.

...when differences of opinion arise regarding various translations, Hebrew and Greek sources will have a greater authority.

I’m sorry JW, but no argument or meme changes the fact that the word “other” has been added to the Colossians passage four times, and it changes the meaning of what the author intended.

I understand your reluctance to admit this on a public forum, especially where other JW’s are present or perhaps following your posts. But my hope is that between you and our great YHWH, you can at least be honest with Him. You know the word has been added, and that adding and taking away from His word can bring very serious consequences.