Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[JehovahsWitness]

If they are the same person, please explain what the following sentence means …

Admitting it wasn’t Jesus’ glory is not admitting it wasn’t the Son’s glory.

Historically, when the Exodus happened, the Son had not yet incarnated as Jesus.

Firstly , what makes you think that Paul is speaking of "when the Exodus happened" , and if Paul is NOT speaking of Jesus when EXODUS happened, what relevance?

HEBREWS 1: 1-3

Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.+ 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.+ 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being,+ and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Further a look at the context shows Paul is actually refering to the glorified son elevated as he was in the first century to a HIGHER position than any mission during the exodus. So on both counts Paul's speaking of Jesus as the the reflection or radiance of God’s glory cannot be negated by claims of chronology to mean his own glory.

I’m guessing you mean Hebrews 2:7. If so, then he uses ἀγγέλους (angelous), i.e., how we get our word "angels".

So unless you believe Paul is mistaken, he reads the elohim of Psalms 8:6 to refer to angels. Evidently then the early Christians did indeed have the notion of gods that both exist, are not false but are of course lesser than the Supreme Almighty One.

It doesn't say that they worshipped the lamb.

Okay, but what do you mean by that? ...

See post #46 : viewtopic.php?p=1147871#p1147871

[Capbook]

God, then, occupies the first place: Christ holds the second place.

So, you are saying that Christ and God are not equal in authority (power)?

Jesus and God are equal in power, see Calvin's Commentary on 1Cor 11:3
Inasmuch as he has in our flesh (human nature) made himself subject to the Father, for, apart from this, being of one essence with the Father, He is His equal.
And Barne's Notes on Phil 2:6, "Paul regarded the Redeemer as equal with God".

[JehovahsWitness]

God, then, occupies the first place: Christ holds the second place.

So, you are saying that Christ and God are not equal in authority (power)?

Jesus and God are equal in power...

Si in what sense is Jesus in " the second place"? What is the difference between "the first place" and "the second place"?

[onewithhim]

God, then, occupies the first place: Christ holds the second place.

So, you are saying that Christ and God are not equal in authority (power)?

Jesus and God are equal in power, see Calvin's Commentary on 1Cor 11:3
Inasmuch as he has in our flesh (human nature) made himself subject to the Father, for, apart from this, being of one essence with the Father, He is His equal.
And Barne's Notes on Phil 2:6, "Paul regarded the Redeemer as equal with God".

In what way is Jesus equal in power and also in second place? What does first place mean, and why is Christ not in first place?

Paul did not regard Christ as equal with God. He said that Jesus wouldn't even give a thought to grasp equality with God. Here the meaning of "grasp" is to take something that one didn't have before. Paul was saying just the opposite of regarding the Redeemer as equal to God.

Jesus is of the same essence as the Father, but that just means he is a spirit Person just like the Father. Spirit Persons are not all equal. Are the angels equal to the Father?

And Jesus is still subject to the Father, as Paul brought out in his letter to the Corinthians: The head of a man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and "the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) That shows that Christ and God are not equal. Calvin was kidding himself and everybody else. Barnes is just unfamiliar with the Greek text. I wouldn't listen to either of them.

[The Tanager]

Firstly , what makes you think that Paul is speaking of "when the Exodus happened" , and if Paul is NOT speaking of Jesus when EXODUS happened, what relevance?

Paul isn’t speaking of the Exodus in Hebrews 1:3, he is speaking about Jesus the Son by alluding to God’s glory during the Exodus. Paul thinks that image is relevant to who Jesus is. Paul is alluding to the Exodus because he talks about the radiance of glory (which is how Exodus describes the glory of God and Moses’ reflecting it). That’s the only place in the Hebrew scriptures where that imagery is used together, as far as I’m aware.

HEBREWS 1: 1-3
Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.+ 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.+ 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being,+ and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Further a look at the context shows Paul is actually refering to the glorified son elevated as he was in the first century to a HIGHER position than any mission during the exodus. So on both counts Paul's speaking of Jesus as the the reflection or radiance of God’s glory cannot be negated by claims of chronology to mean his own glory.

Paul does note that Jesus’ mission was higher than any other before or since, but that’s not all this passage claims. One thing it says is that Jesus is the radiance of glory, not a reflection of it. Moses reflected the radiance in Exodus. Jesus doesn’t reflect it here; Paul says Jesus is the radiance. In Exodus, God was the radiance, the glory. Paul is directly equating Jesus with God by this image.

So unless you believe Paul is mistaken, he reads the elohim of Psalms 8:6 to refer to angels. Evidently then the early Christians did indeed have the notion of gods that both exist, are not false but are of course lesser than the Supreme Almighty One.

What does Paul say about Jesus in relation to this term here? Paul says Jesus is higher than the elohim. He was made lower (i.e., incarnated as a human), but is superior to the angels. He is not an elohim. He is, in fact, the radiant glory, i.e., God (1:3). Paul calls Jesus God again in 3:3-4, when he says Jesus is the builder of the house and then immediately says the builder is God. Paul clearly doesn’t believe Jesus is an elohim but something different.

And Thomas doesn’t call Jesus “ho angelos mou” (my angel/elohim) in John 20:28; he calls him “ho theos mou” (my God). Yes the elohim category existed as a way to talk of true angels, but the disciples never call Jesus that.

It doesn't say that they worshipped the lamb.

Okay, but what do you mean by that? …

See post #46 : viewtopic.php?p=1147871#p1147871

There you claim the scripture says they worshiped, but they don’t state who is worshiped. I don’t understand why you think that. It explicitly says “(a) to the one seated on the throne and (b) to the Lamb be (c) praise, (d) honor, (e) glory, and (f) ruling power (g) forever and ever.” Items (c) - (g) is the worship. Items (a) and (b) are the ones the worship is directed to. Why do you think (a) and (b) refer to, if not stating who is being worshiped?

[JehovahsWitness]

]Paul isn’t speaking of the Exodus in Hebrews 1:3 ...

Exactly, any claim of chronology must respect the chronology of the writer to be valid. To illustrate : If someone were to refer to the happiness of their daughter at her marriage, it is nonsense to say, she was also happy when use was three and playing with her dolls therefore she must have been married when she was three. The glory of Hebrews 1:3 is not Jesus and this cannot be negate by any claim of pre-exodus superiority since Paul is refering to the glorified Christ risen to a higher position not to the Christ in his humbled manifestation as a human.

What does Paul say about Jesus in relation to this term here?

It doesnt matter; unless you are arguing Paul does not interpret the elohim of Psalms 8:5 to be angels (rather than the Supreme GOD] the claim that gods must have been understood to be those which are "false" is scripturally untenable.

. It explicitly says “... (a) and (b) are the ones the worship is directed to.

No it does not.

[Capbook]

God, then, occupies the first place: Christ holds the second place.

So, you are saying that Christ and God are not equal in authority (power)?

Jesus and God are equal in power, see Calvin's Commentary on 1Cor 11:3
Inasmuch as he has in our flesh (human nature) made himself subject to the Father, for, apart from this, being of one essence with the Father, He is His equal.
And Barne's Notes on Phil 2:6, "Paul regarded the Redeemer as equal with God".

In what way is Jesus equal in power and also in second place? What does first place mean, and why is Christ not in first place?

Paul did not regard Christ as equal with God. He said that Jesus wouldn't even give a thought to grasp equality with God. Here the meaning of "grasp" is to take something that one didn't have before. Paul was saying just the opposite of regarding the Redeemer as equal to God.

Jesus is of the same essence as the Father, but that just means he is a spirit Person just like the Father. Spirit Persons are not all equal. Are the angels equal to the Father?

And Jesus is still subject to the Father, as Paul brought out in his letter to the Corinthians: The head of a man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and "the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) That shows that Christ and God are not equal. Calvin was kidding himself and everybody else. Barnes is just unfamiliar with the Greek text. I wouldn't listen to either of them.

Jesus second place in His human nature.

What verse that the word grasp is found?

Acts 1:11 says the same Jesus during His ascension. If He is a Spirit they cannot see Him ascending.

That's not what Calvin understand the verse;
Jesus and God are equal in power, see Calvin's Commentary on 1Cor 11:3
Inasmuch as he has in our flesh (human nature) made himself subject to the Father, for, apart from this, being of one essence with the Father, He is His equal.

Calvin was kidding? and Barne's not familiar with Greek text?
Prove it. What would I call you if you cannot prove it?

[The Tanager]

Exactly, any claim of chronology must respect the chronology of the writer to be valid. To illustrate : If someone were to refer to the happiness of their daughter at her marriage, it is nonsense to say, she was also happy when use was three and playing with her dolls therefore she must have been married when she was three. The glory of Hebrews 1:3 is not Jesus and this cannot be negate by any claim of pre-exodus superiority since Paul is refering to the glorified Christ risen to a higher position not to the Christ in his humbled manifestation as a human.

Hebrews 1:3-4 reads: “3(a)The Son is the radiance of his glory and (b) the representation of his essence, and (c) he sustains all things by his powerful word, and (d) so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, (e) he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (f) Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs.”

Paul is not saying Jesus’ glory comes from being risen to a higher position. These sentences aren’t structured where (a) – the glory – is the result of (f) – having a higher position.

No, Paul says that in these last days God spoke through a son (v. 1-2) who (a) is the radiant Glory (alluding to God Himself during the Exodus), who is (b), who does (c), and when he did (d), he (e) and (f).

It doesnt matter; unless you are arguing Paul does not interpret the elohim of Psalms 8:5 to be angels (rather than the Supreme GOD] the claim that gods must have been understood to be those which are "false" is scripturally untenable.

While Hebrew uses elohim for both God, false gods, and angels, in Greek the disciples distinguish between theos and angelos. Christians, in Greek, never refer to Jesus as angelos (which is how Paul rightly understands the elohim talked about in Psalm 8:5). They do refer to Jesus as theos, though. The only two categories for theos here seem to be God or false gods. Which of these was Thomas calling Jesus in John 20:28?

And it is important what Paul goes on to say about Jesus in relation to the angelos/elohim of Psalm 8:5. Jesus isn’t an angelos/elohim, but superior to them. He is the Glory (1:3) and He is the builder of the house, which is God (3:3-4).

There you claim the scripture says they worshiped, but they don’t state who is worshiped. I don’t understand why you think that. It explicitly says “(a) to the one seated on the throne and (b) to the Lamb be (c) praise, (d) honor, (e) glory, and (f) ruling power (g) forever and ever.” Items (c) - (g) is the worship. Items (a) and (b) are the ones the worship is directed to. Why do you think (a) and (b) refer to, if not stating who is being worshiped?

No it does not.

It doesn’t say (a) and (b)? Or it doesn’t say worship is directed to (a) and (b)? Or something else?

If the first, then what phrasing is in the spots of (a) and (b)? If the second, then what is being directed to (a) and (b)? If the third, then what does your "No it does not" refer to?

[JehovahsWitness]

These sentences aren’t structured where (a) – the glory – is the result of (f) – having a higher position.

I didn't say they were.

It doesnt matter; unless you are arguing Paul does not interpret the elohim of Psalms 8:5 to be angels (rather than the Supreme GOD] the claim that gods must have been understood to be those which are "false" is scripturally untenable.

... angelos (which is how Paul rightly understands the elohim talked about in Psalm 8:5). ..

So you acknowledge Paul (a first century Christian) understood angels to be "elohim" (gods) certainly not the Supreme Almighty (YHWH) but powerful lesser "elohim". Thus invalidating any claim that the first century Christians , had no notion of lesser "gods" (elohim) that were not false or fictional.

[onewithhim]

God, then, occupies the first place: Christ holds the second place.

So, you are saying that Christ and God are not equal in authority (power)?

Jesus and God are equal in power, see Calvin's Commentary on 1Cor 11:3
Inasmuch as he has in our flesh (human nature) made himself subject to the Father, for, apart from this, being of one essence with the Father, He is His equal.
And Barne's Notes on Phil 2:6, "Paul regarded the Redeemer as equal with God".

In what way is Jesus equal in power and also in second place? What does first place mean, and why is Christ not in first place?

Paul did not regard Christ as equal with God. He said that Jesus wouldn't even give a thought to grasp equality with God. Here the meaning of "grasp" is to take something that one didn't have before. Paul was saying just the opposite of regarding the Redeemer as equal to God.

Jesus is of the same essence as the Father, but that just means he is a spirit Person just like the Father. Spirit Persons are not all equal. Are the angels equal to the Father?

And Jesus is still subject to the Father, as Paul brought out in his letter to the Corinthians: The head of a man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and "the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) That shows that Christ and God are not equal. Calvin was kidding himself and everybody else. Barnes is just unfamiliar with the Greek text. I wouldn't listen to either of them.

Jesus second place in His human nature.

What verse that the word grasp is found?

Acts 1:11 says the same Jesus during His ascension. If He is a Spirit they cannot see Him ascending.

That's not what Calvin understand the verse;
Jesus and God are equal in power, see Calvin's Commentary on 1Cor 11:3
Inasmuch as he has in our flesh (human nature) made himself subject to the Father, for, apart from this, being of one essence with the Father, He is His equal.

Calvin was kidding? and Barne's not familiar with Greek text?
Prove it. What would I call you if you cannot prove it?

The word "grasped" is found in the NASB, as I think I mentioned, at Philippians 2:6.

Jesus was materialized when on the ground speaking to his disciples (in Acts), and when he started to ascend. But he became a spirit person when he got caught up in the clouds, "out of their sight."

There is nothing there that even hints of Jesus being equal to God. I Corinthians 11:3 shows what Christ is like even after his ascention to heaven" ("the head of Christ is God).

Jesus states firmly that the Father is his God, again as he did at John 20:17, while in heaven, telling John what to write. He said:

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

Jesus has a God, therefore he cannot be God. Being of "one essence" with the Father does not make him God. They are simply both Spirits, which is the "essence" mentioned here. As I asked before: Are the angels also God? They are of the same essence also.

Jason David BeDuhn's opinions are just as worthy of acceptance as are Calvin's and Barnes', if not more so.