Hell

Mick · Post by **Mick** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:16 pm

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

marco · Post by **marco** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:05 am

onewithhim wrote:
What does it gain a man to have the whole world but then LOSE HIS VERY LIFE? Otherwise, how would you explain that verse, to make any sense?

May I try?

Gaining the whole world refers to physical possessions. The rich man, as has been said, finds it very hard to enter heaven. The soul, the spiritual element of man, is lost by an attachment to worldly wealth. By concentrating on the ephemeral we lose the eternal.

Your meaning, as usual, would be incomprehensible to Christ's listeners. But that doesn't seem to matter. The important thing is to FORCE a meaning that accords with modern ideas about the gospels.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:25 am

marco wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
What does it gain a man to have the whole world but then LOSE HIS VERY LIFE? Otherwise, how would you explain that verse, to make any sense?
May I try?

Gaining the whole world refers to physical possessions. The rich man, as has been said, finds it very hard to enter heaven. The soul, the spiritual element of man, is lost by an attachment to worldly wealth. By concentrating on the ephemeral we lose the eternal.

Your meaning, as usual, would be incomprehensible to Christ's listeners. But that doesn't seem to matter. The important thing is to FORCE a meaning that accords with modern ideas about the gospels.

How does that not relate to what I said? The man might lose his life if he continued to place the ephemeral ahead of the eternal. Right?

marco · Post by **marco** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:41 am

onewithhim wrote:
How does that not relate to what I said? The man might lose his life if he continued to place the ephemeral ahead of the eternal. Right?

The man WILL lose his life whatever he gets up to. The suggestion is that the SOUL is something beyond his corporeal frame and through sin can be lost. You are resolved not to accept the anima as separate from the corpus. I don't accept the phrase from Genesis as proof that soul means body - nor do billions of others.

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:38 am

marco wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
What does it gain a man to have the whole world but then LOSE HIS VERY LIFE? Otherwise, how would you explain that verse, to make any sense?
May I try?

Gaining the whole world refers to physical possessions. The rich man, as has been said, finds it very hard to enter heaven. The soul, the spiritual element of man, is lost by an attachment to worldly wealth. By concentrating on the ephemeral we lose the eternal.

Your meaning, as usual, would be incomprehensible to Christ's listeners. But that doesn't seem to matter. The important thing is to FORCE a meaning that accords with modern ideas about the gospels.

MARCO: By concentrating on the ephemeral we lose the eternal.

Something eternal cannot be lost!

Which is what the Bible states:

Ezekiel 18:20 wrote:The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (a man) shall not bear the iniquity of the father( a man), neither shall the father( a man) bear the iniquity of the son ( a man): the righteousness of the righteous( mankind) shall be upon him( a man), and the wickedness of the wicked( mankind) shall be upon him( a man).

You are confusing mankind with God and the angels.

Only God and the angels are eternal spirits.

Mankind's life is "ephemeral" and can be lost.

Once a human is born again of the spirit and becomes equal unto the angels, he or she becomes eternal and this verse no longer applies to them as they cannot lose something which is eternal.
=================================================

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:23-24)

Rich people often tend to have very competitive personalities and may be power seekers. God's system is designed to weed out people with these characteristics. After all, this was Satan's character flaw. He wanted to exalt himself and become like the most high God. This flaw led Satan to rebel against God.

Why allow those humans with the same flaw to become immortal and possibly perpetuate rebellion? They are weeded out because they do not believe in Jesus.

They can gain the entire world, but they are not allowed to gain everlasting life. It is something that they could have had freely, but it is lost.

They simply die.

Why do they not believe in Jesus? Look how wonderfully successful they have been on their own. Who needs Jesus? It is not (generally) these haughty humans who are going to inherit the earth, but the meek:

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5)

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:01 pm

tam wrote:Ted, you understand that the union we have with Christ now, will be complete when Christ returns and gathers us up, to be married, right? Then our union will be complete?

If you do understand this, then surely you can understand that eating the bread and wine that means His body and blood now; is not the same thing as eating from Him (the tree of Life) then?

Nowhere in the type of partaking (eating) communion and its fulfillment in Christ is there any room for the idea that some must be held back from a sinful believer's communion because the fulfilment is not yet in place...or has a consequence too far that is against what YHWH is trying to do with us.

Now that Adam and Eve know good and evil they must not be able to eat of Christ lest they become like Christ and live forever, the exact goal of every good Christian....???

tam · Post by **tam** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:57 pm

Peace to you Ted.

ttruscott wrote:
tam wrote:Ted, you understand that the union we have with Christ now, will be complete when Christ returns and gathers us up, to be married, right? Then our union will be complete?

If you do understand this, then surely you can understand that eating the bread and wine that means His body and blood now; is not the same thing as eating from Him (the tree of Life) then?

Nowhere in the type of partaking (eating) communion and its fulfillment in Christ is there any room for the idea that some must be held back from a sinful believer's communion because the fulfilment is not yet in place...or has a consequence too far that is against what YHWH is trying to do with us.
I'm sorry, Ted, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.

We currently (if we are obeying Christ) eat the bread and wine that means the body and blood of Christ. We do this literal eating NOW. But this is an example of the eating of the Tree of Life that we will do in the Kingdom. Does Christ not say in one of the letters to the seven churches:

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the paradise of God.

This is a future happening, as are the promises at the end of each of those seven letters.

**

The promises are fulfilled when Christ returns, when we are gathered to Him, when we eat from Him - the LIFE - in the Kingdom, when we are changed, when the marriage takes place.

(I think you are changing the meaning of the word 'eating', although I could be misunderstanding you. But what we eat we take in to ourselves. Christ is the LIFE - so when we eat of the tree of LIFE - we take LIFE into ourselves.)

Now that Adam and Eve know good and evil they must not be able to eat of Christ lest they become like Christ and live forever, the exact goal of every good Christian....???
Yes, the goal.

Nothing suggests that Adam and Eve will not also, later, enter back into Paradise and eat from the Tree of Life, and so live forever.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:15 pm

tam wrote:We currently (if we are obeying Christ) eat the bread and wine that means the body and blood of Christ. We do this literal eating NOW. But this is an example of the eating of the Tree of Life that we will do in the Kingdom. Does Christ not say in one of the letters to the seven churches:

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the paradise of God.

Nowhere is the right to the tree withheld from the elect, HIS sheep (good seed) who have gone astray into sin, only the non-elect, the goatly tares. Becoming His Bride is His promise to us, not His threat.

We have no right to the tree while in our sins but we do have a right for the promise to be filled in us that we will be lead to the Tree. No hint is ever put that the sinful elect will not be brought to the tree lest they become immortal too soon. Immortality is always the hope of our faith.

John 7:6 Therefore Jesus told them, "Although your time is always at hand, My time has not yet come. It could have been written in Gen 3 that now that A&E were sinners, the TIME for them to eat of the Tree of Life had not yet come so they were banished but the way it is written does not say that... Even IF the tree is Christ it is saying that the sinful elect are held back from Him by force, which is untenable as all those between their leaving the garden and His death who had faith were called to Him and saved, entering eternal life, and not rejected.

What did tossing them out of the garden accomplish if they entered eternal life at their death???

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:58 pm

tam wrote:Nothing suggests that Adam and Eve will not also, later, enter back into Paradise and eat from the Tree of Life, and so live forever.

Maybe, but the thief on the cross was with Him in paradise that day... Job says that on his death he will return from whence he came - and unless you think he meant his mother's womb or that he meant annihilation, then he meant to return to Him in the paradise part of Sheol. To be with Him in such a sense is to partake of Him...

tam · Post by **tam** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:12 pm

ttruscott wrote:
tam wrote:We currently (if we are obeying Christ) eat the bread and wine that means the body and blood of Christ. We do this literal eating NOW. But this is an example of the eating of the Tree of Life that we will do in the Kingdom. Does Christ not say in one of the letters to the seven churches:

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the paradise of God.
Nowhere is the right to the tree withheld from the elect, HIS sheep (good seed)
Ted, the verse states precisely,

To the one who is victorious, I will GIVE the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the paradise of God.

If He is giving them the right, then does that not mean that at some point, they did not have the right?

... only the non-elect, the goatly tares. Becoming His Bride is His promise to us, not His threat.
Yes, of course. A promise. To the one(s) who are victorious.

(There are others who enter the Kingdom based upon how they treated even a least one of His brothers... such as the sheep, from the sheep and the goats parable... who enter the Kingdom and receive eternal life at the time Christ returns).

What is the issue here?

We have no right to the tree while in our sins but we do have a right for the promise to be filled in us that we will be lead to the Tree.

Yes. For the promise to be fulfilled.

No hint is ever put that the sinful elect will not be brought to the tree lest they become immortal too soon.
I do not know what this has to do with anything I have said. What is it that you think I am saying?

Immortality is always the hope of our faith.
Okay...

John 7:6 Therefore Jesus told them, "Although your time is always at hand, My time has not yet come.
What are you trying to say with this verse?

Christ was speaking to His brothers, who told Him to reveal Himself at that time (even though at that time they did not believe who He was). Christ said that His time had not yet come.

It could have been written in Gen 3 that now that A&E were sinners, the TIME for them to eat of the Tree of Life had not yet come so they were banished but the way it is written does not say that...

Of course not. I have not suggested otherwise.

It simply says that they were no longer permitted to reach out and eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. Because of what they did. Whether they will be given (back) the right to eat from the Tree of Life is not stated here.

(bringing us back to the point that they - and we - can not live forever unless we eat from the tree of Life)

Even IF the tree is Christ it is saying that the sinful elect are held back from Him by force, which is untenable as all those between their leaving the garden and His death who had faith were called to Him and saved, entering eternal life, and not rejected.
??

The first resurrection (of those who belong to Christ) has not yet occurred. The second resurrection (of the dead), does not occur until the end of the thousand year reign.

What did tossing them out of the garden accomplish if they entered eternal life at their death???
Who said that they entered eternal life at their death???

They died, descended to the world of the dead (hades), are conscious of nothing, and awaiting a resurrection.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:08 pm

ttruscott wrote:
tam wrote:Nothing suggests that Adam and Eve will not also, later, enter back into Paradise and eat from the Tree of Life, and so live forever.
Maybe, but the thief on the cross was with Him in paradise that day... Job says that on his death he will return from whence he came - and unless you think he meant his mother's womb or that he meant annihilation, then he meant to return to Him in the paradise part of Sheol. To be with Him in such a sense is to partake of Him...

Jesus wasn't in paradise that day.

And Job returned to dust.