God's Actual Name

[jgh7]

I've seen God called by different names. As much as I know, the consonants for his name are given in the OT, but the vowels are missing.

Does anyone here claim to know what the vowels are and thus the proper pronunciation of God's name. Or is it a mystery that will remain unknown?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 10 by Blastcat]


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[2timothy316]

What is not acceptable is the completely dishonest translation favored in most modern English Bibles - 'LORD.'

I completely agree.

[onewithhim]

I've seen God called by different names. As much as I know, the consonants for his name are given in the OT, but the vowels are missing.

Does anyone here claim to know what the vowels are and thus the proper pronunciation of God's name. Or is it a mystery that will remain unknown?

I don't think anyone will say they positively know the vowels. Why does it matter? We call God "Jehovah" because that is the most familiar way to pronounce his name (YHWH). If you want to say "Yahweh" that's OK too. In Swahili it's something else.

[onewithhim]

What is not acceptable is the completely dishonest translation favored in most modern English Bibles - 'LORD.'

“Lord� is not a translation of the Tetragrammaton.

It is a way of honoring an ancient Jewish tradition of not saying the name of God out loud. The name of God was considered too holy to be spoken lightly. When someone was reading from the Hebrew scriptures and came across YHVH they would say the word adonai, which is Hebrew for Lord. Some copies of the Hebrew Bible placed the vowels for adonai around the consonants for YHVH as a reminder not to say YHVH out loud.

By the way, this is where the English name Jehovah came from. It mixes the consonants YHVH with the vowels for adonai, and transliterates that into Jehovah. The Hebrew “a� changes to an “e� when it is not at the beginning of the word, and the strong “I� sound at the end of adonai is changed to softer “a� sound when the “h� is placed behind it. And of course the "y" of Hebrew changes to a "j" in English.

I do not think that the Jewish command to not pronounce "YHWH" is based on a desire to be protective of the Divine name. The Commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" (Deut.5:11, KJV) was meant to caution the Israelites not to say that name in a worthless way, or, with disrespect. I can see that if God didn't want people to use his name he wouldn't have allowed it to be included in the Bible 7,000 times.

In fact, he says to Moses at Exodus 3:15: "Tell them, 'Jehovah, the God of your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my eternal name, to be USED throughout all generations." (Living Bible)

There is no good reason for the Israelites or anyone to avoid using the name of God.

[phlegmnoire]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

As an atheist.. I have to say that this kind of discussion is a good reason for not being a theist. To me, the very idea of the topic is mind numbingly trivial.

As an atheist, I'm fascinated by discussions like these.

I think about the ancient Canaanite pantheon and the Hebrews relationship to the Canaanites (Hebrews were a subculture within the Canaanite culture), and the influence of this pantheon in the Hebrew Bible. And by extension, I'm also interested in the etymology of the names of the deities, including the name YHWEh.

[dio9]

What is in a name ? I say like a rose, God by any name smells the same. What does I AM that I AM mean ? Tell them I AM sent you. How can we name the unnameable? Me thinks it is vain to think we can contain all that God is in a name. Even the word we use "God" has so much baggage it confuses us. But a proper name , surely you jest. I AM maintains the mystery.

[Yahu]

And "Elijah, meaning "My God is YHVH", Joel, "YHVH is God", and perhaps most importantly "Yahshua" (Joshua, Yeshua) meaning "YHVH is salvation"

Actually El does not mean 'god' in Hebrew. El is 'mighty' or 'the mighty One' when used by itself. It CAN BE a reference to Yah but depends on the context.

A better translation of Elijah would be 'He is Mighty in Yah'. Elijah was most certainly 'mighty in Yah' and so was John the Baptists and that is why he is called 'an Elijah'. John the Baptists was not 'the Elijah' but an individual that was 'mighty in Yah'.

BTW the Hebrew form of Elijah is Eliyahu.

I prefer the form Yahuvah for YHVH. Since it is contested, I generally just use the short form Yah because of the following scripture.

Ps 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH (YAH in Hebrew), and rejoice before him.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

As an atheist.. I have to say that this kind of discussion is a good reason for not being a theist. To me, the very idea of the topic is mind numbingly trivial.

As an atheist, I'm fascinated by discussions like these.

I think about the ancient Canaanite pantheon and the Hebrews relationship to the Canaanites (Hebrews were a subculture within the Canaanite culture), and the influence of this pantheon in the Hebrew Bible. And by extension, I'm also interested in the etymology of the names of the deities, including the name YHWEh.

Hebrews were not a subculture of the Canaanites. A branch of the Hebrews did dwell in the region of the land of Canaan. Abraham was a Hebrew and was from in modern day Iraq. Hebrews are the descendants of Eber/Heber. The Canaanites were descent of Canaan.

Now, the written languages of the Israelites in the Paleo-hebrew was very close to the Phoenician. The Israelites were only a subset of the Hebrews. Job for example was a Hebrew but not an Israelite.

Now I am VERY familiar with the Canaanite pantheon and yes the Israelites mixed their religion with the Canaanite paganism during many time periods that are recorded in the OT. That does NOT imply that they are related.

The problem comes in with a misunderstanding between who is referenced as El verses YHVH. El is a title, not a name. El can be a reference to YHVH but not always. El and Asherah were married in the Canaanite pantheon. That was ancestor worship of Noah and his wife Na'amah, the ancestral couple they were all descent from. That is how mistaken references to YHVH and his Asherah came about. They mistook the El reference of Noah as a reference to Yah. This same relationship in the Sumerian is the origin of the relationship of Anu (heavens) and Ki (earth) as in (Anunki - children of Anu and Ki).

The correlation between Asherah and Na'amah is easy. The Canaanites give Asherah a major epitaph of 'she who treads upon the seas'. This title confuses scholars because she is an earth deity. Of course if you understand she is Noah's wife, it makes perfect sense. It also helps to understand how she god the nickname of mother earth.

In Genesis, Eve wasn't named Eve until after being expelled from Eden. Before being named Eve she was Adamah, the feminine form of Adam. Adamah means 'land' whereas Adam means 'soil'. A female progenitor is associated with the land. Na'amah as the 2nd female progenitor got the nickname of 'earth'. It was the covenant of the rainbow that was a covenant between Heavens (Yah) and Earth (mankind). That covenant was mirrored on earth by the primary couple Noah and Na'amah. A covenant equates to a marriage so Noah was represented as Heavens (Anu) and his wife as earth (Ki, Gaia, Erets, ...). So the 1st female progenitor was 'land' and the second was 'earth'.

Baal just means 'lord, master' so who is Baal? It depends on who is your Lord. Again, it is a title, not a name and is dependent on the context.

The Canaanite pantheon is very closely related to all the other pagan pantheons of the region. For example, Anath of the Canaanites was Neith of the Egypians and Athena to the Greeks. Nebo (prophet) of the Babylonians was Hermes, Thoth, Mercury, the 'messanger of god', ie prophet. Ashtoreth (shameful star) to the Hebrews was Astarte (star), Venus, Aphrodite/Artemis, Diana, ... Asherah (mother earth) was Gaia and Leto to Greeks, Ki and Nammu to the Sumerian, ...

The Canaanite pantheon came right out of Babel. Both Canaan and Sidon (his eldest son) were captains of Nimrod. The pagan gods came about after Canaan castrated Noah and his wife had children with an angel (the new Anu). The twins he had were Apollo and Artemis to the Greeks or Molech (king) and Astarte (star) to the Canaanites.

We even have Zeus as Hadad (the thunderer) of the Syrians, Shachar (morning) of the Canaanites and the new Anu with both Ki and Nammu (Na'amah) as his consort. And lets not forget that Lucifer (shining one, light bringer) is 'ben Shachar', ie 'son of the Morning'. That makes Lucifer just a title of Apollo (the destroyer) just like his title of Pheobus in the Greek.

Even in the polytheistic paganism YHVH would have been one of the gods even there in some cases.

Isn't it interesting that Revelation mentions four angels getting let out of a prison 'at/under the Euphrates'? The pre-flood angels that had offspring all had their offspring killed in the flood and they were cast into Tartarus yet we have giants and mighty men post flood, and common in the Canaanite bloodline after the flood. Then paganism starts at Babel, the tower is cast down and four angels are put in prison there. I wonder who those four angels were? Their Greek names would be Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and Hera.

The Canaanites were descent from Canaan and Astarte. Sidon was a Nephilim, the progenitor of the Pheonicians. The Canaanites worshiped the Father of the gods, mother earth, their children (Molech and Astarte) and Baal (son of Astarte). Astarte/Ashtoreth was the primary deity of Sidon while Molech (king)/Melqart(king of the city) was the primary and Baal (lord, prince) as secondary deities of Tire. These were the primary deities worshiped in the Groves.

[Yahu]

What is not acceptable is the completely dishonest translation favored in most modern English Bibles - 'LORD.'

“Lord� is not a translation of the Tetragrammaton.

It is a way of honoring an ancient Jewish tradition of not saying the name of God out loud. The name of God was considered too holy to be spoken lightly. When someone was reading from the Hebrew scriptures and came across YHVH they would say the word adonai, which is Hebrew for Lord. Some copies of the Hebrew Bible placed the vowels for adonai around the consonants for YHVH as a reminder not to say YHVH out loud.

By the way, this is where the English name Jehovah came from. It mixes the consonants YHVH with the vowels for adonai, and transliterates that into Jehovah. The Hebrew “a� changes to an “e� when it is not at the beginning of the word, and the strong “I� sound at the end of adonai is changed to softer “a� sound when the “h� is placed behind it. And of course the "y" of Hebrew changes to a "j" in English.

Actually the Y was changed to J because it was translated into German then to English.

[onewithhim]

What is in a name ? I say like a rose, God by any name smells the same. What does I AM that I AM mean ? Tell them I AM sent you. How can we name the unnameable? Me thinks it is vain to think we can contain all that God is in a name. Even the word we use "God" has so much baggage it confuses us. But a proper name , surely you jest. I AM maintains the mystery.

No He doesn't. He gave us the Bible so that we won't always be wondering how we got here and why there is suffering and what the future holds.

He is not a mystery, and I guess you failed to see the scripture I quoted that states explicitly that God wants us to USE His name.

"Yes [Moses], tell them, 'Jehovah, the God of your ancestors Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my eternal name, to be USED throughout all generations." (Exodus 3:15, The Living Bible)