Would you kill for god?

[McCulloch]

If you belive the bible, god has directed people to kill others, both individually (Abraham) and collectively (Joshua).
So, if god asked you to kill someone, would you?
How would you be sure that he really wants you to do it, after all he has asked it before of others?

[McCulloch]

...

Neither. As I said above, after Christ, no more stoning. Christ is the Judge from the point of His ascension on the cross. The Law is relevant. Will never change. It is still …. death … except not by stoning.

How convenient! God's law once said that the faithful should stone to death certain individuals. God's law has changed and now it is God himself who will administer the punishment.
I am not looking at the law from the point-of-view of the person being punished. As you point out, the result is the same, although the timing may have changed. I am looking at the law from the point-of-view of the person trying to faithfully follow God's will. That, you claim, seems to have changed.

[topaz]

OK then one has to wonder why this tale was included without any indication from the writer that what he did was bad or that maybe he would have been better to break his foolish vow

God did not ask for a vow from Jephthah. He made a vow, albeit a foolish one, nevertheless, it falls upon him to keep it according to the Law. He knew the Law and he was wise to keep a foolish vow. He was wise enough not to carry on his foolishness by not keeping the vow, as you suggested … ‘maybe he would have been better to break his foolish vow’

So, if god asked you to carry out a military assassination rather than an individual vendetta, that would by all right.

Absolutely. We are nothing before God. We are all pathetic sinners. To obey is righteousness but to disobey is sin. God, as Creator of all that is in heaven, on earth and everywhere else, must be obeyed by virtue of His infinite wisdom and righteousness.

At the end of time, even satan will be destroyed together with all the unrighteous and wicked who refuse Christ. This is righteousness.

Still, if you were to consider the law equivalence to a personal order...

Recall when a group of men brought a prostitute to Jesus and accused her of sin. Jesus said that he who was without sin could cast the first stone. They all left. Then Jesus said to the woman, "Neither do I accuse you." He did several things here: 1)He confirmed the law by inviting the men to stone her. 2)He showed the true standard of the law, that punishment should come from the blameless, and the men in this situation were not... they were hypcrites. 3)Jesus showed her mercy, after confirming she deserved to die.

Therefore, if Jesus can show her mercy, then I conclude that the death prescribed by these laws would be just, but that mercy may be appropriate as well.

One of those really great teachings attributed to Jesus which is at odds with the older portion of the scriptures. This is not a problem to me, who believes the bible to be inconsistent, but it should present a problem to most christians.

We see in israel politics, righteous killing is a necessity to stop evil from perpetrating. We see God dispensing mercy to Nineveh, to the woman caught in adultery, to the human specie as a whole. It is obvious that mercy is given when spirituality is an issue. But in politics, acts of wickedness to society makes killing the perpetrators a necessity and is actually righteous.

BTW, this also brings up the theological point that Jesus made, that the entire law rests on loving God and loving your neighbor. When the criminal is your neighbor, and the accusers are your neighbor, how can you best love God and your neigbor? Not always an easy question to answer!

A new and unique interpretation of the law, brought forth by Jesus. Is there any validation of this interpretation before Jesus time or did god hide this idea from his people for centuries?

I would like to say that we must differentiate between spirituality and acts of wickedness as shown in my statement above. Let’s say in the case of individuals / organised groups that commit crimes like bank robbery, illegal gambling. Surely they don’t deserve to be killed.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth … the Law. Those who murder must therefore, be murdered. Be it an individual / organised group, if they take life, then they must give up their lives. This is justice.

When Christ teach me to love my neighbour, He doesn’t expect me to live in fear of my neighbour. Therefore, the prevalence of justice at the micro and macro levels, or international level must prevail or there would be chaos. I have 10 neighbours and if 1 is bent on killing me and society, in the name of justice, I must act against this 1 neighbour so that the other 9 neighbours can live in peace. Thus, I show my love for the other 9 neighbours. Sometimes, you can’t win them all.

Anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

I don't see room in the syntax of Exodus 21 for mercy. What exactly does "shall surely be put to death" mean? Does it mean "may be put to death, unless you don't really feel like it", or "shall surely be put to death if your government will do it for you, but if not, you really don't have to do it yourself". Yes, I know that Jesus contradicted this teaching, so bible believing christians have a choice of which biblical teaching to reject.

To me, ‘shall surely be put to death’ means no second thoughts, no mercy is given, no excuses.
How did Jesus contradict this teaching ?

BTW, this also brings up the theological point that Jesus made, that the entire law rests on loving God and loving your neighbor. When the criminal is your neighbor, and the accusers are your neighbor, how can you best love God and your neigbor? Not always an easy question to answer!

A new and unique interpretation of the law, brought forth by Jesus. Is there any validation of this interpretation before Jesus time or did god hide this idea from his people for centuries?

The Law was given before Jesus. Many instances of ‘love thy neighbour’ :

Dt 23:24-25 If you enter your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat all the grapes you want, but do not put any in your basket. 25 If you enter your neighbor’s grainfield, you may pick kernels with your hands, but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain.
Love thy neighbour : The Law makes provision for the poor not to go hungry.

Le 19:9-10 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Love thy neighbour : The Law exhorts us to provide for the needs of the poor … hebrew and non-hebrew.

Dt 15:1-3 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you.
God makes a distinction between His own and the unbeliever. Bad debts are written off. We see a parallel here in Christ. Every believer receives forgiveness and sins written-off. While the unbeliever remains unrighteous before God, unforgiven.

Dt 31:10-13 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles, 11When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. 12Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: 13And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
Love thy neighbour : [of a different race] by teaching him about God. Instead of teaching the heathens around them about God and His Law, israel followed their gods and brought disaster upon themselves.

Le 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
Love thy neighbour : Same Law for hebrew and non-hebrew. In other words, the immigrant has equal rights to be treated fairly.

De 27:18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen. Le 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
Love thy neighbour : The blind and deaf are not forgotten.

God is a loving and fair God.

[McCulloch]

When Christ teach me to love my neighbour, He doesn’t expect me to live in fear of my neighbour. Therefore, the prevalence of justice at the micro and macro levels, or international level must prevail or there would be chaos. I have 10 neighbours and if 1 is bent on killing me and society, in the name of justice, I must act against this 1 neighbour so that the other 9 neighbours can live in peace. Thus, I show my love for the other 9 neighbours. Sometimes, you can’t win them all.

Actually, Jesus' teaching seems to be at variance with your interpretation.

[Jesus said, ]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

[topaz]

When Christ teach me to love my neighbour, He doesn’t expect me to live in fear of my neighbour. Therefore, the prevalence of justice at the micro and macro levels, or international level must prevail or there would be chaos. I have 10 neighbours and if 1 is bent on killing me and society, in the name of justice, I must act against this 1 neighbour so that the other 9 neighbours can live in peace. Thus, I show my love for the other 9 neighbours. Sometimes, you can’t win them all.

Actually, Jesus' teaching seems to be at variance with your interpretation.

[Jesus said, ]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

[topaz]

When Christ teach me to love my neighbour, He doesn’t expect me to live in fear of my neighbour. Therefore, the prevalence of justice at the micro and macro levels, or international level must prevail or there would be chaos. I have 10 neighbours and if 1 is bent on killing me and society, in the name of justice, I must act against this 1 neighbour so that the other 9 neighbours can live in peace. Thus, I show my love for the other 9 neighbours. Sometimes, you can’t win them all.

Actually, Jesus' teaching seems to be at variance with your interpretation.

[Jesus said, ]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

Sorry, my earlier post didn't come out right.

You take Matthew 5 as a basis for ALL relationships. This is where we differ.
I differentiate between relationships ……. personal, politics, etc.

On a personal level, yes, I abide by turning the other cheek.

But on another level, societal, political, sorry … the rules are different. The OT bears them out clearly.

As a parent, will I turn the other cheek if my child is evil ? It is my duty to teach, to discipline …

As a parent, if a rapist enters your home and tries to rape your child, would you turn the other cheek ?

As a police officer and a christian, could you turn the other cheek and allow evil to take place … ?

You cannot use one teaching and apply it to EVERY situation. You got to differentiate.

Didn’t Jesus show His temper to the pharisees ? Didn’t he overturn the table at the temple and make a whip with cords to drive away the money changers … According to your interpretation, perhaps Jesus should remain calm and allow them to do as they please. No anger, no emotion, no action …

I welcome your views and others as well. You brought up a pertinent point.

[topaz]

...
Neither. As I said above, after Christ, no more stoning. Christ is the Judge from the point of His ascension on the cross. The Law is relevant. Will never change. It is still …. death … except not by stoning.

How convenient! God's law once said that the faithful should stone to death certain individuals. God's law has changed and now it is God himself who will administer the punishment.
I am not looking at the law from the point-of-view of the person being punished. As you point out, the result is the same, although the timing may have changed.

I think you misunderstand scripture. The Law was given to israel as a new nation. The Law establish court procedures, etc. The state was a theocracy then. When Christ came, He showed us the spiritual aspect of the Law … if you are not guilty, then stone her. No one did. It is this spiritual aspect that believers must follow. Christ also declare that God has made Him Judge. This is an instance of His process of judgment. We learn from this.

I am looking at the law from the point-of-view of the person trying to faithfully follow God's will. That, you claim, seems to have changed.

The faithful follow God’s will by following the Law through Christ. It is a sin to play judge when God has made His Son the Judge.

[McCulloch]

[Jesus said, ]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

You take Matthew 5 as a basis for ALL relationships. This is where we differ.
I differentiate between relationships ……. personal, politics, etc.

Oh, I missed where Jesus qualified his instructions.

On a personal level, yes, I abide by turning the other cheek.
[...]
As a police officer and a christian, could you turn the other cheek and allow evil to take place … ?

You seem to imply that I believe that Jesus' teaching on this topic is correct. No, I believe your situational ethics rather than Jesus unqualified pronouncement on this point.

You cannot use one teaching and apply it to EVERY situation. You got to differentiate.

Didn’t Jesus show His temper to the pharisees ? Didn’t he overturn the table at the temple and make a whip with cords to drive away the money changers … According to your interpretation, perhaps Jesus should remain calm and allow them to do as they please. No anger, no emotion, no action …

The easiest and most obvious response is that Jesus' actions were not, in this case, consistent with his teachings. We all make that mistake from time to time.

[McCulloch]

The faithful follow God’s will by following the Law through Christ. It is a sin to play judge when God has made His Son the Judge.

So you are saying that in the current dispensation God the Son is the judge and that the faithful should not judge however, in previous dispensations, God instructed His people to be judges and were therefore required to do what we are currently prohibited from doing.

Your God is a confusing fellow.

[Cathar1950]

Your God is a confusing fellow.

That is something we should all be able to agree on.
The ones that scare me are the ones that think the got God all figured out.

[topaz]

The faithful follow God’s will by following the Law through Christ. It is a sin to play judge when God has made His Son the Judge.

So you are saying that in the current dispensation God the Son is the judge and that the faithful should not judge however, in previous dispensations, God instructed His people to be judges and were therefore required to do what we are currently prohibited from doing.

I believe I mentioned earlier that in the time of Moses, israel as a new nation, needed a system of governance and God provided it. So judges were chosen, temples and forms of worship ritual were set up … etc. When the Messiah came, He showed us to look at the Law in a spiritual way, a way that was untaught of by the pharisees, the teachers of the Law. The pharisees taught by the letter of the Law but not it’s underlying principles. This is how ‘Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition … ‘ [Mk 7:13].

For example :
Ø if you bear hate in your heart, you’re convicted of murder by God.

Ø If you look at another with lust, you’re convicted of adultery, homosexuality …

Ø Mk 7:11-12 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Your God is a confusing fellow.

Funny, how you find Him so confusing yet I don’t. I just love his orderly, squeeky-clean, systematic, no-nonsense approach. I love Him.