Would you kill for god?

[McCulloch]

If you belive the bible, god has directed people to kill others, both individually (Abraham) and collectively (Joshua).
So, if god asked you to kill someone, would you?
How would you be sure that he really wants you to do it, after all he has asked it before of others?

[McCulloch]

Is it reasonable to believe that god would at times instruct individuals to obey his just and holy law?

No, if Jesus died for our sins.

So, now that Jesus died for our sins, we can continue sinning without fear of god's retribution.

Paul asks a very similar question in Romans 6:15a, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

Well, he answers the question, too in Romans 6:15b - 18, "Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

And so I am to act in righteousness. Not out of obedience to the law, which I am technically freed from, but in obedience to righteousness.

The OT prophecies this in Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, through I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And this "acting in righteousness" involves nothing more than loving my neighbour and loving god? And that loving god does not mean obeying his commandments? Or is it that there are a new set of god's commandments in force since the sacrifice of Christ? If christians are not under any sort of commandments from god, then how could sinful behaviour even be defined?

This forgiveness thing is great! Why haven't other christians explained this to me ?

If you're serious, that no Christian has explained this to you before, then they were remiss in my opinion.

I meant the idea that forgiveness means that once forgiven, one could then ignore god's commandments an continue in sin without consequence.

Jesus came not to change the law, but fulfil it. It was fulfilled by sacrifice, which God would accept for all transgressions of the law, for those repentant of their sinful ways. As a result, we are not bound by the law in any practical sense.

So if we repent of our sinful ways then don't we stop sinning? Or at least try to not sin? And if to sin is to break god's law, then would we not still be bound to it?

Here's where you get into word games. One person will say their actions are no longer sinful, because they're freed from the law. Another will say they're still sinners, but their sin is forgiven. Both answers have grains of truth in them. Sin is "missing the mark". So my answer is that we continue to miss the mark, but the law written our heart combined with the Holy Spirit steers us back toward it again... and where the law says that our sin must be atoned for with a sacrifice, we have Christ to point to as that sacrifice. So, it turns out that one's attitude is not a cavalier "oh I can sin all I want", but "I want to live in righteousness"... and that's one way you can tell if someone is truly born again.

So, if someone wants to "live in righteousness", how does he determine what actions constitute righteousness and what actions determine evil? He is no longer bound to god's law, so it cannot be used. Maybe loving his neighbours?

So the bible is contradictory. The law in Exodus is strict and its application is lenient.

That depends on your perspective. Part of the "strict" law was to give sacrifices, which is basically atoning for your sins... so however else one failed to follow the law, your sacrifices made you right with God again. So, is the law in some respect both strict and lenient? Perhaps at first glance. But, neglect that sacrifice and you won't be right with God.

The implied law in Exodus is then "Anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death or not if someone makes a sacrifice for him."

Thankfully, in a society where ritual sacrifice is outlawed, I have Jesus to thank for being that sacrifice, having first lived a blameless live, and then conquering His death through ressurection.

Did Jesus himself conquer death or was he raised up by the Father? (another topic).

[israeltour]

Is it reasonable to believe that god would at times instruct individuals to obey his just and holy law?

No, if Jesus died for our sins.

So, now that Jesus died for our sins, we can continue sinning without fear of god's retribution.

Paul asks a very similar question in Romans 6:15a, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

Well, he answers the question, too in Romans 6:15b - 18, "Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

And so I am to act in righteousness. Not out of obedience to the law, which I am technically freed from, but in obedience to righteousness.

The OT prophecies this in Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, through I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And this "acting in righteousness" involves nothing more than loving my neighbour and loving god? And that loving god does not mean obeying his commandments? Or is it that there are a new set of god's commandments in force since the sacrifice of Christ? If christians are not under any sort of commandments from god, then how could sinful behaviour even be defined?

How to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind:
1. Have no other gods before Him.
2. Make no idols, or any likeness of heaven, earth, or water.
3. Don't take God's name in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your parents.

How to love our neighbor as yourself:
6. Don't murder.
7. Don't commit adultery.
8. Don't steal.
9. Don't lie.
10. Don't covet.

These in fact are the 10 commandments. I live by them, not in a spirit of legalism, but out of love for God and my neighbor.

This forgiveness thing is great! Why haven't other christians explained this to me ?

If you're serious, that no Christian has explained this to you before, then they were remiss in my opinion.

I meant the idea that forgiveness means that once forgiven, one could then ignore god's commandments an continue in sin without consequence.

If someone can continue in sin and still love God with all their heart soul and mind, and still love their neighbor as themself, then all the more power to them. I know I couldn't! And to anyone who claims they can, I would challenge whether they've really repented of their sin and accepted Christ as their Lord and savior.

So the bible is contradictory. The law in Exodus is strict and its application is lenient.

That depends on your perspective. Part of the "strict" law was to give sacrifices, which is basically atoning for your sins... so however else one failed to follow the law, your sacrifices made you right with God again. So, is the law in some respect both strict and lenient? Perhaps at first glance. But, neglect that sacrifice and you won't be right with God.

The implied law in Exodus is then "Anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death or not if someone makes a sacrifice for him."

Pretty close. He'd be forgiven as far as His relationship with God is concerned. However, he would still be deserving of earthly death, the debt owed his father and mother for cursing them. I am aware of no verses specifically saying that you can show mercy in death-sentence cases, and no verses forbidding it either. So, since God shows mercy to whom He will show mercy (Exodus 33:19), and His mercy endures forever (Psalm 136), it isn't too far fetched to think that it would be acceptable for us to show mercy as well.

[McCulloch]

Is it reasonable to believe that god would at times instruct individuals to obey his just and holy law?

No, if Jesus died for our sins.

So, now that Jesus died for our sins, we can continue sinning without fear of god's retribution.

Paul asks a very similar question in Romans 6:15a, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

Well, he answers the question, too in Romans 6:15b - 18, "Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

And so I am to act in righteousness. Not out of obedience to the law, which I am technically freed from, but in obedience to righteousness.

The OT prophecies this in Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, through I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And this "acting in righteousness" involves nothing more than loving my neighbour and loving god? And that loving god does not mean obeying his commandments? Or is it that there are a new set of god's commandments in force since the sacrifice of Christ? If christians are not under any sort of commandments from god, then how could sinful behaviour even be defined?

How to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind:
1. Have no other gods before Him.
2. Make no idols, or any likeness of heaven, earth, or water.
3. Don't take God's name in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your parents.

How to love our neighbor as yourself:
6. Don't murder.
7. Don't commit adultery.
8. Don't steal.
9. Don't lie.
10. Don't covet.

These in fact are the 10 commandments. I live by them, not in a spirit of legalism, but out of love for God and my neighbor.

Maybe I'm missing something but I think that we have come full circle. I started by asking if god would ask someone to obey his commandments. You said no, because of Jesus' sacrifice. I then asked if this sacrifice means that we don't have to obey god's laws anymore and you answered with Paul's letter to the Romans, instructing christians to live righteously and not under the law. I asked for clarification about what living righteously means, if god's law does not apply and you come back at me with the famous ten commandments which you say we should obey not out of legalism but out of love.

So, to answer my original question, you do agree that god might ask someone to obey his just and holy law.

As an aside, you then keep god's sabbath, the seventh day of the week?

[McCulloch]

So the bible is contradictory. The law in Exodus is strict and its application is lenient.

That depends on your perspective. Part of the "strict" law was to give sacrifices, which is basically atoning for your sins... so however else one failed to follow the law, your sacrifices made you right with God again. So, is the law in some respect both strict and lenient? Perhaps at first glance. But, neglect that sacrifice and you won't be right with God.

The implied law in Exodus is then "Anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death or not if someone makes a sacrifice for him."

Pretty close. He'd be forgiven as far as His relationship with God is concerned. However, he would still be deserving of earthly death, the debt owed his father and mother for cursing them. I am aware of no verses specifically saying that you can show mercy in death-sentence cases, and no verses forbidding it either. So, since God shows mercy to whom He will show mercy (Exodus 33:19), and His mercy endures forever (Psalm 136), it isn't too far fetched to think that it would be acceptable for us to show mercy as well.

But you would be supportive of your christian brother who might put his child to death in obedience to god's commandment for cursing his parents or not?

[israeltour]

Is it reasonable to believe that god would at times instruct individuals to obey his just and holy law?

No, if Jesus died for our sins.

So, now that Jesus died for our sins, we can continue sinning without fear of god's retribution.

Paul asks a very similar question in Romans 6:15a, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

Well, he answers the question, too in Romans 6:15b - 18, "Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

And so I am to act in righteousness. Not out of obedience to the law, which I am technically freed from, but in obedience to righteousness.

The OT prophecies this in Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, through I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And this "acting in righteousness" involves nothing more than loving my neighbour and loving god? And that loving god does not mean obeying his commandments? Or is it that there are a new set of god's commandments in force since the sacrifice of Christ? If christians are not under any sort of commandments from god, then how could sinful behaviour even be defined?

How to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind:
1. Have no other gods before Him.
2. Make no idols, or any likeness of heaven, earth, or water.
3. Don't take God's name in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your parents.

How to love our neighbor as yourself:
6. Don't murder.
7. Don't commit adultery.
8. Don't steal.
9. Don't lie.
10. Don't covet.

These in fact are the 10 commandments. I live by them, not in a spirit of legalism, but out of love for God and my neighbor.

Maybe I'm missing something but I think that we have come full circle. I started by asking if god would ask someone to obey his commandments. You said no, because of Jesus' sacrifice. I then asked if this sacrifice means that we don't have to obey god's laws anymore and you answered with Paul's letter to the Romans, instructing christians to live righteously and not under the law. I asked for clarification about what living righteously means, if god's law does not apply and you come back at me with the famous ten commandments which you say we should obey not out of legalism but out of love.

So, to answer my original question, you do agree that god might ask someone to obey his just and holy law.

As an aside, you then keep god's sabbath, the seventh day of the week?

I see the misunderstanding. God will not "instruct" (your original word) me to obey His laws. Instead, He gave me a conscious. I tend to draw a distinction. However, if you want to take the approach that my conscious is simply God's method for instructing me, then I'm agreeable. The idea is that we comunicate meaning clearly, not for me get you to use words the way I do (though I try!). From that perspective, He instructs me obey those laws that enable to love Him more, and He does the instructing by giving me a conscious.

As for the sabbath, I go to church on Sundays. I realize it's not sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, but that is my "sabbath". The expectation is that I love God, and I'd love Him no more worshipping Saturday. (If that means I need qualify myself on that commandment, then I apologize for the miscommunication... being clear can be hard!!!)

[israeltour]

So the bible is contradictory. The law in Exodus is strict and its application is lenient.

That depends on your perspective. Part of the "strict" law was to give sacrifices, which is basically atoning for your sins... so however else one failed to follow the law, your sacrifices made you right with God again. So, is the law in some respect both strict and lenient? Perhaps at first glance. But, neglect that sacrifice and you won't be right with God.

The implied law in Exodus is then "Anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death or not if someone makes a sacrifice for him."

Pretty close. He'd be forgiven as far as His relationship with God is concerned. However, he would still be deserving of earthly death, the debt owed his father and mother for cursing them. I am aware of no verses specifically saying that you can show mercy in death-sentence cases, and no verses forbidding it either. So, since God shows mercy to whom He will show mercy (Exodus 33:19), and His mercy endures forever (Psalm 136), it isn't too far fetched to think that it would be acceptable for us to show mercy as well.

But you would be supportive of your christian brother who might put his child to death in obedience to god's commandment for cursing his parents or not?

No, because he is freed from the law, and that is probably not the best way to love God and neigbor. Also the law was given to Jews (well, their ancestors, and passed on to the Jews), and so only unsaved Jews are bound to those laws. I believe supporting such a law in Israel would be biblical.

[mark king]

Hi all,

I believe that any and all reference to "God's order to kill" in the bible, or any other record is an inaccurate understanding of God's true attributes. It is a reflection of mans state of ignorance at the time of the old testament writings... There was hardly a concencus on the concept of one God at that time let alone the idea of a merciful and loving God.

Even today, do our leaders religious or otherwise disclose all to us? Or are we spoon fed as much as we are deemed able to comprehend.

Even today, those in power that would kill are compelled to sell the lie that it is the will of God.

In old testament times I think it was likely a priority to control the people before enlightening them.

urantia paper 96-5

Moses feared to proclaim the mercy of Yahweh, preferring to awe his people with the fear of the justice of God, saying: "The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, a mighty and terrible God, who regards not man." Again he sought to control the turbulent clans when he declared that "your God kills when you disobey him; he heals and gives life when you obey him." But Moses taught these tribes that they would become the chosen people of God only on condition that they "kept all his commandments and obeyed all his statutes."

Little of the mercy of God was taught the Hebrews during these early times. They learned of God as "the Almighty; the Lord is a man of war, God of battles, glorious in power, who dashes in pieces his enemies." "The Lord your God walks in the midst of the camp to deliver you." The Israelites thought of their God as one who loved them, but who also "hardened Pharaoh's heart" and "cursed their enemies."

As far as the question of would I kill for God....I see this as an impossible situation to find myself in, The idea that God would request of one of his children to kill or sacrifice another is an obserdity based on erroneous concepts within the bible. Even more obserd is the idea that God would knowingly sacrifice his perfect son to release us of the responsibilities of righteous living.

israeltour wrote;

Not at all. Jesus came not to change the law, but fulfil it. It was fulfilled by sacrifice, which God would accept for all transgressions of the law, for those repentant of their sinful ways. As a result, we are not bound by the law in any practical sense.

Jesus came to give us a new revelation about God. To be an example of righteous living for all of us. He tried repeatedly not to change the law but to show that the law was not God. He did allow himself to be killed because this was his fathers will, not to be killed, but to finish out his life to the bitter end without straying from the path of righteousness. There are many ways I'm sure that Christ could have saved himself of that fate,
I'm sure he did everything he could to make things happen differently.
But when he did die, as promised, he bestowed upon us all the spirit of truth This I believe is what israeltour refers to as his conscience. This spirit enables us all in varying degrees to discern more clearly what is truth.

[McCulloch]

I believe that any and all reference to "God's order to kill" in the bible, or any other record is an inaccurate understanding of God's true attributes.
urantia paper 96-5
As far as the question of would I kill for God....I see this as an impossible situation to find myself in, The idea that God would request of one of his children to kill or sacrifice another is an obserdity based on erroneous concepts within the bible. Even more obserd is the idea that God would knowingly sacrifice his perfect son to release us of the responsibilities of righteous living.
Jesus came to give us a new revelation about God. To be an example of righteous living for all of us. He tried repeatedly not to change the law but to show that the law was not God. He did allow himself to be killed because this was his fathers will, not to be killed, but to finish out his life to the bitter end without straying from the path of righteousness. There are many ways I'm sure that Christ could have saved himself of that fate,
I'm sure he did everything he could to make things happen differently.
But when he did die, as promised, he bestowed upon us all the spirit of truth This I believe is what israeltour refers to as his conscience. This spirit enables us all in varying degrees to discern more clearly what is truth.

mark king, there is much truth to what you say. But you are not speaking from the traditional bible-believing point of view. It is very good that you have found a way to believe in a god without the kind of absurdities that can lead to inquisitions, crusades or jihads. I wish that I could say the same for my neighbours to the south.

[angelic_spirit]

I agree with Mark.

I am also a reader of the UB.

The question asked in this thread is actually what began my search for the "true nature" of God.
Just who is God?

I believe it is so hard for some people to understand the "perfection" of God that they continue to give him "human emotions".

God is not a jealous God. He is above Jealousy.
God would never ask his child to kill, because God is completely perfect in LOVE, and to be perfect in LOVE means to me he could never intentionally request the harm of any part of his creation, let alone his children.

If you are perfect in love, you cannot have anger in your heart.
If you are perfect in love, you cannot have vengeance in your heart.
If you are perfect in love, forgiveness and mercy is given freely forever.

So, to end my reply, since i'm new around here and don't want to repeat what may have already been said....

I believe God is perfect in all ways, perfect beyond our comprehension of perfection. And as that as my belief, there would never be a reason in his divine plan for him to ask me to take the life of anything.

many blessings


Angel

[israeltour]

I believe God is perfect in all ways, perfect beyond our comprehension of perfection. And as that as my belief, there would never be a reason in his divine plan for him to ask me to take the life of anything.

Are you a vegetarian?