Judaism debate, continued

[cnorman18]

Are you nuts? There isn't a Jew on Earth that doesn't recognize the difference between ethnic and religious Jews. What I am saying is that they are all Jews, and all part of the community. It may be due to centuries of persecution, or to being a tiny minority in a Gentile world; but we stick together, and we don't reject each other because we have different beliefs or none at all. The commitment is to the community, not to the religion, and especially not to any particular take on theology.

Make up your mind already. First you say that in order to be a part of the Jewish community....

Stop right there. No, I didn't. I said that to BECOME part of the Jewish community, i.e., to CONVERT to Judaism, one had to do those things (at which we will take a closer look presently). Born Jews don't, and I have made that clear too.

...you have to follow rituals...

Which are not relevant to theological beliefs.

...be tested....

Wrong word, but let it go. One must confirm one's commitment to the community, not to a particular theology. I've made that quite clear too.

...and be accepted by the community.

Through the process and ritual of conversion.

Ethnic Jews certainly don't have to do that

I never said they did. All that is relevant only to conversion, not to bring born Jewish.

and atheist and humanist Jews most certainly do nothing of the sort, yet they are still Jews.

Correct. Which is what I said.

You got backed into a corner so you're changing your tune, now anyone who is an ethnic Jew is magically part of this community whether they acknowledge or care about the community or not.

Also correct, but I have not "changed my tune." I have said that from the beginning.

Whether they care about the community is irrelevant. The community cares about them.

Those Jews who do not care about the community do not, in any case, generally identify themselves as Jews, which renders the point rather moot.

Like it or not, there are plenty of ethnic Jews who don't give a damn about your so-called "Jewish community", but you're trying desperately to use the term, just like some people try to use "black community" to imply strength in numbers and a powerful voting block where none really exists. You, and by that I don't mean to single you out, there are plenty who do the same thing, simply declare that all Jews are part of a community so you can say "look at how many of us there are". That doesn't fly.

Attributing motivation again. Sorry, that won't work. For starters, there IS a Jewish community which is acknowledged by virtually all Jews. Even Humanistic (that is, atheistic) Judaism requires a course in Jewish culture and community for conversion (which they term "adoption" into the community) and has a ceremony of formal welcoming.

Second, since Jews number about 1-1/2% of the world's population, "look at how many of us there are" isn't likely to be our motivation for doing anything. You are rather obviously making this up as you go along.

Incidentally, attributing "desperation" to one's opponent, in my experience, is a pretty sure sign that one is desperate oneself. I do not say that you are. It's just an observation.

I'm rather confident in the factuality and truth of what I'm saying, as it happens. If you want sources to back it up, I can give you a few dozen right now. All I have to do is Google "Jewish community" or "Judaism."

Just for laughs: Do YOU have any sources or authorities or references or anything to back up your totally baseless, unsupported and entirely personal opinions here?

I have never said any such thing. Look through my posts, all of them, 188 threads so far. I have always said that Judaism is pluralistic, and I have never said anything else.

Yet right here you're trying to claim there is a single Jewish community when there's nothing of the sort. There are many, many so-called communities, many beliefs, many ideas, etc. Judiasm is just as fragmented in it's thinking as Christianity is, Jews are just as diverse as any other ethnic group.

Judaism is a pluralistic community. Why is that so hard for you?

Want a higher authority that declares all Jews, of whatever belief, ethnicity, or whatever to be a single community? How about the state of Israel?

Anyone who is a Jew with any of the characteristics you list above may claim the Right of Return and be accepted as a citizen of Israel. Religious, atheist, ethnic, convert, whatever. Israeli Jews include all of those. Israel is by any meaningful definition a "community," and every Jew on Earth, regardless of theology or ethnicity, is a potential member of it and thus part of the larger community of Jews. We may argue and fight among ourselves, but even the odd cults that hold themselves separate acknowledge that other Jews are Jews and part of that larger community.

In short, you are spouting your own ideas and definitions and ignoring what Jews actually teach, believe and practice as matters of actual fact.

Perhaps you'd care to cite a source that explicitly says otherwise.

You can't post a list of criteria for being a Jew any more than you can post a list of criteria for being a Christian....

Sorry, I can and have. A Jew is one who has (1) been born to a Jewish mother (among some Reform Jews, mother or father), or (2) been through a process and ceremony of conversion. Simple. Theology is irrelevant.

It's a matter of record. Again, if you want multiple references, I will be most happy to give them.

....both groups have massive variations in their beliefs, no matter what your rabbi friend might think, a Jew is not a Jew.

Variations in belief are not only found among the branches but within them. Judaism is pluralistic. Period.

Interesting that you feel free to overrule and negate the view of a rabbi. From where comes YOUR authority to do so? Where were you trained and ordained? Or do you claim such pontifical authority simply on your own hook?

Wrong again. Judaism as an institution and a community unquestionably does include religion, but one does not have to participate or believe in that aspect of it to be a Jew. What's so hard about that? If that wasn't true, there could be no such thing as a "secular Jew" in the first place. In the same way, ethnicity is sn aspect of Judaism too; and though I participate in the religious aspect, I am not ethnically Jewish; still, I am recognized as a real Jew.

Oh, playing the old No True Scotsman fallacy, hmmm?

How am I doing that? Explain.

That fallacy is exclusive in nature and intent. The nature of Judaism is inclusive. Nice try.

"Secular Jew" isn't a title, it's a description, the same as "secular black", "secular Eskimo" or whatever. One is a Jew the moment one pops out of the womb, it has nothing whatsoever to do with one's beliefs.

Just I said. That is one way, and the most common one, to be Jewish.

Since one cannot change one's ethnicity, the only way to convert to Judaism is by way of the religious aspect; but even then, there are no specific theological beliefs prescribed. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I've proven that over and over, and even proved that taking the Torah literally raises eyebrows when one is converting to Conservative Judaism. Nobody tells you what you have to believe.

And since one cannot change one's ethnicity, you need to specify that you're only talking about RELIGIOUS Judiasm and stop pretending that Judiasm, all of the various and disparate meanings thereof, are all the same or are even related.

Are you actually reading what I write? In a religious conversion, one is not taught a particular theology, and the commitment is to the people, not to any such set of beliefs. I've said that more than once, but it doesn't seem to have sunk in.

One is taught much about Jewish culture, about the various and diverse groups of Jews around the world, and about Jewish history; on theology, one is given a brief introduction to a few of the various schools of thought, and little more. All that is left to the individual believer. Theology is optional; community is not.

I have never said that all of the "various and disparate meanings" of Judaism are "all the same." Related, they inarguably are. If they aren't, how come they can all become Israelis?

That's like saying that all blacks have to be Southern Baptists, just because a lot of them are. There is no inherent link between being black and being a Southern Baptist, any more than there is an inherent link between being ethnically Jewish and following the Jewish religion, or even having any respect whatsoever for the Jewish culture. You're insisting on links that simply don't exist.

No, YOU are insisting that I've said things I haven't.

I restate your analogy as a direct statement: "You are saying that all Jews have to be religious Jews, just because a lot of them are."

I have never said any such thing.

Do you think that belief is based on the Torah? I've already dealt with that, and you're ignoring it. Again.

You've said that it's based on a lot of other writings as well and the same question applies to them. You're still not answering the question.

Reeeeally? Where did I say that the belief in God is based on any documents?

You keep talking about "answering the question," anrd "the same question," but you seem to have a hard time making that question clear.

Are you talking about belief in God? Authority on ethical matters? On theological matters? The "reason for the religion," as you have said elsewhere? What?

Your original assertions had to do with Biblical literalism, and now you seem to be extending that (?) objection to "other writings." How does that issue relate to any of the above? Do you even know what you are supposedly trying to ask, or are you floundering as badly as it appears?

I see you finally take a run at it below. Let's see how well you do.

And what would those be? Judaism does not formally attribute any "characteristics" to God. Ein Sof. Unknowable. Remember?

Yet they still do. Things like... EXISTING.

Since there are branches where that belief is optional or nonexistent, that is itself debatable; but in any case, that belief is not founded on the Torah or any other document. The men who wrote the source documents of the Bible obviously believed, and they had none.

Caring about the Jewish people.

Whoops. Since 1945, that one is EXTREMELY debatable. A very poor choice.

Giving the Jewish people a stretch of worthless desert.

That is not an attribute, that is an action; and the passages where that is recorded are taken no more literally by modern Jews than any other. The founders of Israel were uniformly secular, for the record.

In any case--"Worthless"? How does that square with "caring about the Jewish people"?

It's an ancient joke that if God had really loved the Jews, He would have given us a land with some oil under it. Note my signature.

These are all things that many Jews think are accurate and true about God.

So what? As I said, none of them are formally attributed to God by the Jewish religion, proven by the fact that all are debatable.

There is no Jewish creed of any kind. The closest we have ever come to that is Maimonides's Thirteen Points, and every one of them has been and still is debated.

Do you mean LITERALLY, or not? Why don't you use that word any more? Have you realized that that won't fly?

You're really hung up on that word, aren't you? I don't use it because every time I do, you go into a binary "the whole Torah has to be completely and totally literal" or "we get to pick and choose whatever we want because we feel like it" and the answer is in the middle somewhere.

Sorry, that's a blatant falsehood and a lame excuse.

What I have said, and consistently, is that the issue of the literal truth of the Bible is, in Judaism, irrelevant. The "binary" you mention above is related to the false dichotomies that YOU presented.

If you're going to reject stories in the Torah like the creation story or the flood story or the burning bush story, then why not just reject the whole God concept?

Can you explain how that logically follows?

Can you explain what you mean by "rejected"? Don't bother--you are obviously talking about literal, historical truth again, and not explaining why such "rejection" is tantamount to "discarding," which it isn't; nor dealing with the fact that the literal truth of those stories is neither accepted nor rejected in the first place, but held not to matter. Individual Jews may believe them or not, and nobody cares.

How many times have I explained this, and you're still beating that nonexistent drum?

You call ME unresponsive. I'm still trying to get you to explain and defend the points you tried to make when we started, and here you are just repeating them again and assuming them in your question!

You're the one who keeps insisting that your beliefs are logical and reasonable, yet every time I ask you to demonstrate how you logically or reasonably come to the conclusion that God exists, you change the subject.

Another falsehood. Your initial contention was that (1) belief in God depended on a literal reading of the Torah (or Bible), and (2) not reading any or all of the Torah (or Bible) amounted to "throwing it away."

By claiming that you're asking me to "demonstrate how I logically or reasonably come to the conclusion that God exists," YOU are changing the subject--which is rather easily proven: I have consistently and rather famously refused to play the game of 'Prove there is a God' since I first came to this forum.. If that had been your initial assertion, I would not have engaged.

We are still back where we started, Cephus. You have STILL not explained why a literal reading of Scripture is necessary to a belief in God, and you have STILL not explained why a NON-literal reading is equivalent to "throwing it out" in whole or in part. We have gotten precisely nowhere, because you can neither explain nor defend your original assertions!

It has not been a wholly unproductive conversation, though. We have learned much. About you, mostly.

We have learned that you have some entirely unsupported and factually wrong opinions about the existence of a Jewish community, some (again) entirely unsupported and factually wrong opinions about what defines a Jew, and some (yet again) entirely unsupported and factually wrong opinions about the teachings of the Jewish religion.

We have learned that you feel free to ignore facts that are repeatedly shown you and proven, that you feel free to ignore answers and cogent points and pretend they were never given nor made, that you are very quick with ad hominem and insult, but verrry slow to give references or cite sources--which is not surprising, because you clearly have none.

We have, perhaps above all, learned that you can claim authority to make pronouncements and pass judgments, not as your own opinion but as indisputable fact, on matters about which you know little or nothing--while simultaneously accusing others of doing that very thing on their own authority when that is clearly not the case. You even accuse others of being "antagonistic" when the only posts on this thread that fit that description are your own.

Would you care to start all over and try again, or are we done?

[Cephus]

Ah, there's the thread, I looked earlier and didn't see it. Thanks for moving it.

[quote="cnorman18"Stop right there. No, I didn't. I said that to BECOME part of the Jewish community, i.e., to CONVERT to Judaism, one had to do those things (at which we will take a closer look presently). Born Jews don't, and I have made that clear too. [/quote]

What if you don't want to become part of the Jewish community, you just want to be a practicing Jew? What if you're born Jewish yet want nothing whatsoever to do with the community or the religion or the culture?

Which are not relevant to theological beliefs.

It doesn't stop people from practicing them though. Going back to my "Jewish" ex-girlfriend, we celebrated a lot of rituals and holidays with her parents, mostly because they insisted, and they certainly thought they were relevant to their theological beliefs.

Wrong word, but let it go. One must confirm one's commitment to the community, not to a particular theology. I've made that quite clear too.

Well, they have to be convinced of your commitment and accept you, which is certainly a test, there has to be some metric to measure it by, I'm sure.

Through the process and ritual of conversion.

Hey, I thought rituals weren't important!

Whether they care about the community is irrelevant. The community cares about them.

How can the community care about them if the community doesn't know they exist? Or is this one of those silly, warm and fuzzy "someone out there vaguely cares about you" kind of things?

Those Jews who do not care about the community do not, in any case, generally identify themselves as Jews, which renders the point rather moot.

Not at all. Regardless of how they identify themselves, they are still Jews. If a Chinese guy doesn't identify himself as a Chinese guy, he's still a Chinese guy. How you think of yourself or how you present yourself doesn't change your genes.

Even Humanistic (that is, atheistic) Judaism requires a course in Jewish culture and community for conversion (which they term "adoption" into the community) and has a ceremony of formal welcoming.

Assuming they weren't born Jews and that they care about being part of this "community", right?

Second, since Jews number about 1-1/2% of the world's population, "look at how many of us there are" isn't likely to be our motivation for doing anything. You are rather obviously making this up as you go along.

No, of course not. They have no reason to petition Congress for increased foreign aid for Israel or anything, right?

Judaism is a pluralistic community. Why is that so hard for you?

Then it's not just one community, it's multiple communities. However, you keep presenting it as "THE COMMUNITY" implying that there is a single monolithic view on who is a Jew and who is not.

Sorry, I can and have. A Jew is one who has (1) been born to a Jewish mother (among some Reform Jews, mother or father), or (2) been through a process and ceremony of conversion. Simple. Theology is irrelevant.

But again, you're talking about, I suppose, legal Judiasm, not religious Judiasm. That's the problem with using one term to refer to a wide range of ideas.

Since there are branches where that belief is optional or nonexistent, that is itself debatable; but in any case, that belief is not founded on the Torah or any other document. The men who wrote the source documents of the Bible obviously believed, and they had none.

Are you arguing that there are branches of religious Judiasm that have no... religious beliefs? Then they're not very religious, are they?

Whoops. Since 1945, that one is EXTREMELY debatable. A very poor choice.

Oh please, let's not start a Holocaust whine, it's tiring. It's like blacks complaining about their ancestors being slaves and expecting sympathy today. Doesn't fly.

In any case--"Worthless"? How does that square with "caring about the Jewish people"?

Just pointing out that you'd think God would have given his people a better piece of real estate.

It's an ancient joke that if God had really loved the Jews, He would have given us a land with some oil under it. Note my signature.

Also a good point. I was thinking more of a beautiful south-seas island, but hey, I'm flexible.

So what? As I said, none of them are formally attributed to God by the Jewish religion, proven by the fact that all are debatable.

The same can be said about most things in Christianity, you've got sects that believe all sorts of weird things and you've got individual preachers, at least, who don't even believe in God, yet remain Christians. It just goes to prove that consistency of belief isn't required for religion.

What I have said, and consistently, is that the issue of the literal truth of the Bible is, in Judaism, irrelevant. The "binary" you mention above is related to the false dichotomies that YOU presented.

You keep missing the point, purposely I think, by demanding a literal reading of *ALL* of the Torah or no literal reading at all. The question specifically is, how do you come to the conclusion that some passages are valid and true, especially those passages which deal with the supernatural elements, while at the same time rejecting others? How do you use the Torah as a spiritual guide based only on a subjective reading of the work? Every time I ask that question, you run off on a rant about literalism and conveniently forget to answer the question.

Can you explain what you mean by "rejected"? Don't bother--you are obviously talking about literal, historical truth again, and not explaining why such "rejection" is tantamount to "discarding," which it isn't; nor dealing with the fact that the literal truth of those stories is neither accepted nor rejected in the first place, but held not to matter. Individual Jews may believe them or not, and nobody cares.

And there you go again. I'm not debating with all Jews, I'm debating with you. Stop telling me that all Jews don't agree and actually say what *YOU* think. Specifically, how do you determine which passages in the Torah are trustworthy and worthwhile and which are not. You're the one who claims that your Judiasm is logical and reasonable, you still haven't demonstrated how that is so. How does someone who approaches the Torah without any theistic belief or preconceptions read it and come to the conclusion that the Jewish religion is the true religion and that the beliefs of Judiasm are valid and reliable?

If you can't do that, and I've been asking for it since we started, then why are we wasting our time? Stop shucking and jiving and just answer the question.

[Ayah5768]

Hi, Cephus! It seems like this conversation is pretty emotionally charged so I've decided to step in and try to explain what Norman has been trying to say. It is sort of complicated.

There are two "types" of Jews--ethnic and religious. One can be an ethnic Jew and not be religious, religious but not ethnic (converts), or both. If you are neither, you are obviously not a Jew.

Being an ethnic Jew means that you were born to a Jewish mother. It means that if we could trace your lineage far enough back we would find Abraham, the father of the Jews. Ethnic Jews can forget over generations that they are Jews or not care that they are Jews but they can't stop being Jews any more than Micheal Jackson can stop being black--even though he certainly has tried. If you are an ethnic Jew it doesn't matter what you believe religiously, it doesn't matter if you are atheist, or even if you are Christian or Muslim--you are still a Jew.

Ethnic Jews sometimes will practice Jewish ceremonies and observe religious holidays even if they aren't religious in order to enjoy a connectedness with their heritage. They will say the some prayers that a religious Jew says but for different reasons.

A religious Jew (in America and Europe) usually falls into 1 of 4 categories based on their particular level of observance or 1 of 2 based on where their post-Abraham ancestors came from. You can convert to religious Judaism and your ethnicity is never questioned. In fact, if you converted, your children would be considered ethnic Jews just as your adoptive daughter's children would be considered your grandchildren.

A religious conversion takes quite a while. Oddly, it involves very little religion unless you want it to. It takes a while because a Jew is required to has a basic understanding of what it is to be Jewish. Understanding that involves reading a lot of books about holidays, ethics, and history among other topics. If you talk to your rabbi about religion he will talk to you about it, but his focus is usually on other things. A rabbi will very rarely (if ever) tell you what you should believe on any given topic and will often congratulate you on a point well made even if it is in stark contrast to his own. In fact, it is difficult to get through Torah study with 5 Jews because there is a lot of debate going on. On religious issues, Jews tend to agree to disagree an awful lot.

Once you have reached a point at which the rabbi feels you are appropriately schooled and dedicated (usually that takes about 6 months to a year), you have a sort of commitment ceremony. Questions are asked that are not about your particular view of God or Biblical topics, but rather whether you are committed to the people of Israel. (Meaning the descendants of the man Israel, not necessarily the country of Israel.) After you have said "yes" to those questions, you are a Jew and your children (if they are not yet born) are Jewish and on and on through all of the generations until the world is no longer. If your children have already been born, there is a separate conversion ceremony for them.

When talking about "the Jewish community" it is not meant to imply that we all agree on... well... anything really. There is a saying that if you ask 3 Jews the same question, you'll get 4 answers. This is because we barely agree with ourselves, much less each other. We are, after all, named "Israel" which means "struggles with God." The term "Jewish community" also doesn't imply that anyone who is a Jew cares about the rest of us. Although, it is a safe bet that even if a Jew doesn't care about us, we care very much about him.

To illustrate that point, lets discuss a tribe of African Jews that were separated from their European counterparts many, many generations ago. So long ago, in fact, that most of the world's Jews didn't even know they existed and they, in turn, didn't know about us... until there was famine effecting our brothers and sisters in Africa and word got out that there was a tribe of previously-unfamiliar-to-us Jews who were starving. Jewish people all over the world, whether ethnic or religious, orthodox or reform, Ashkenazi or Sephardi united in an effort to help the African Jews. This was not because their practices or beliefs were the same, it was because they had Jewish blood and were part of our community even if neither them nor us knew it. That is what we mean by "Jewish community."

Do Jews stand together fairly often in defense of a shared concern? Absolutely. Do we also often stand apart on issues? More than you can count. But, being Jewish is being a part of a family. You can agree or disagree, but you can't not be a part of it. You can care or not care, but you can't change who you are. Being Jewish is a complicated and beautiful thing and is not confined to doctrine.

If you want to debate the Jewish religion, gather several Jews together and they will probably argue amongst themselves rather than team up against you. Debate is part of who we are. While it is true that getting through a Jewish Bible study without a heated discussion is rather difficult (I haven't seen it happen yet) it is also true that after our heart rates have slowed, we will probably all get together for bagels and smear and part as friends. It is our way.

As for what Norman believes and whether it is logical, only he can answer that. I can say, though, that I have met very few Jews who are not logical in their beliefs. Jews tend to be a pretty practical people an base their beliefs on a very down-to-earth, reasonable mentality. I believe that that is why so many Jews enter into law or the sciences. It is in Judaism where most people find a comfortable union of religion and science.

A Jew who believes in Biblical literalism is a pretty tough find. Most of us are less concerned with whether there was a literal flood or exodus than with what those stories can tell us about the grit that makes up the Jewish soul. Biblical stories are often viewed as the history of Jewish thought and much less often as the history of God's actions.

Furthermore, we do not have "the true religion." We have a covenant with God. A non-Jew can have whatever religion he wants and is not considered a "sinner" whereas a Jewish Christian, for example, is an apostate and is practicing idolotry. Why? Because Judaism is for the Jews and the Jews are for Judaism. It is a Jew who ventures outside of Judaism by worshiping another God who is "doing something wrong" but a gentile who is Pagan or Muslim or any other religion is fully supported and a Jew who worships no God is also supported. That is why Jews don't try to convert people or convince people. There is no reason to.

We don't have all of the answers and we don't hold "the truth." We are chosen to keep God's laws but not because we are better than anyone else. We are God's people because when asked we accepted the task. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there is any such place as Heaven, the Jews will not be alone there.

[cnorman18]

Ah, there's the thread, I looked earlier and didn't see it. Thanks for moving it.

My last post was edited to direct you here almost as soon as it was posted.

Stop right there. No, I didn't. I said that to BECOME part of the Jewish community, i.e., to CONVERT to Judaism, one had to do those things (at which we will take a closer look presently). Born Jews don't, and I have made that clear too.

What if you don't want to become part of the Jewish community, you just want to be a practicing Jew?

Contradiction in terms. "Practicing Jew" implies "religious Jew"--if one is not born Jewish, what else could it mean?--and practicing the Jewish religion explicitly entails identification with the community. Jewish prayers are virtually all communal in nature; one prays as a member of Klal Israel, the Jewish people, and one prays for the Jewish people. There are even key prayers, such as the Amidah, the heart of every service, and Kaddish, the prayer for the dead (which is to be said daily for eleven months after the death of an immediate family member) which may not be said at all except in the presence of ten adult Jews.

Never been to a Jewish service or seen a Jewish prayerbook in your life, have you?

What if you're born Jewish yet want nothing whatsoever to do with the community or the religion or the culture?

Knock yourself out. You are still a Jew, unless you choose to worship another god, e.g. Jesus or Allah. Even then, some authorities maintain that you are still a Jew, only an apostate one.

Which are not relevant to theological beliefs.

It doesn't stop people from practicing them though. Going back to my "Jewish" ex-girlfriend, we celebrated a lot of rituals and holidays with her parents, mostly because they insisted, and they certainly thought they were relevant to their theological beliefs.

In terms of specifics, they aren't, which was my contention. Jews of all varieties of faith or nonfaith celebrate Passover, for instance, and there is no single set order of service. One may buy a variety of Haggadot (books used for the Passover Seder). Some of them do not even mention God.

Wrong word, but let it go. One must confirm one's commitment to the community, not to a particular theology. I've made that quite clear too.

Well, they have to be convinced of your commitment and accept you, which is certainly a test, there has to be some metric to measure it by, I'm sure.

Are you? Why?

There is no metric. It is up to the individual judgment of the members of the Bet Din. In practice, the rabbi who instructed you is a member of that court, usually three in number, and he does not convene it until he is sure you are ready. The questions are pro forma, and the whole business is essentially a venue wherein one declares his commitment to the community. I have never heard of a Bet Din rejecting a candidate for conversion, though I'm sure it has happened at one time or another.

Through the process and ritual of conversion.

Hey, I thought rituals weren't important!

No. I said they weren't relevant to a specific theological belief. They aren't.

Whether they care about the community is irrelevant. The community cares about them.

How can the community care about them if the community doesn't know they exist? Or is this one of those silly, warm and fuzzy "someone out there vaguely cares about you" kind of things?

What if it is? The principle remains.

As a practical matter, if one identifies oneself as a Jew, one identifies oneself as a member of the community. If not, then the question is, as I said, moot. The Jew doesn't want to be known as a Jew, and the community doesn't know he exists. No harm, no foul, Everybody's happy. If the question does arise, he remains a Jew.

Those Jews who do not care about the community do not, in any case, generally identify themselves as Jews, which renders the point rather moot.

Not at all. Regardless of how they identify themselves, they are still Jews.

Um, that would be my point...

I thought you were arguing that if one chooses not to self-identify as Jewish, then one isn't. Are you getting mixed up in your own arguments, just so you can disagree with me?

If a Chinese guy doesn't identify himself as a Chinese guy, he's still a Chinese guy. How you think of yourself or how you present yourself doesn't change your genes.

I'm not getting this. I said that one is Jewish either by birth or by conversion. You are here admitting that the first is correct.

Even Humanistic (that is, atheistic) Judaism requires a course in Jewish culture and community for conversion (which they term "adoption" into the community) and has a ceremony of formal welcoming.

Assuming they weren't born Jews and that they care about being part of this "community", right?

Why else would one join?

A born Jew would just take his place in the congregation, as with other branches. A non-Jew would have to go through the process.

Second, since Jews number about 1-1/2% of the world's population, "look at how many of us there are" isn't likely to be our motivation for doing anything. You are rather obviously making this up as you go along.

No, of course not. They have no reason to petition Congress for increased foreign aid for Israel or anything, right?

What difference would numbers make? Jews represent a critical voting bloc in only a few districts nationwide (and even there, they do not vote monolithically as a group). Do you think that only Jews favor aid to Israel? If that were the case, there would be none.

If you want to look at a group that does vote monolithically and favors aid to Israel, try evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. There are a lot more of them than there are of us.

Judaism is a pluralistic community. Why is that so hard for you?

Then it's not just one community, it's multiple communities. However, you keep presenting it as "THE COMMUNITY" implying that there is a single monolithic view on who is a Jew and who is not.

On that one issue, there pretty much is.

Theologically, that is not the case.

Is America one community? Is there ANYTHING upon which all Americans agree, INCLUDING who is and is not an American?

Since when does a community have to be monolithic in any way?

Sorry, I can and have. A Jew is one who has (1) been born to a Jewish mother (among some Reform Jews, mother or father), or (2) been through a process and ceremony of conversion. Simple. Theology is irrelevant.

But again, you're talking about, I suppose, legal Judiasm, not religious Judiasm. That's the problem with using one term to refer to a wide range of ideas.

LOL! Talk about a false distinction. As if Jewish law and the Jewish religion were mutually exclusive.

Since there are branches where that belief is optional or nonexistent, that is itself debatable; but in any case, that belief is not founded on the Torah or any other document. The men who wrote the source documents of the Bible obviously believed, and they had none.

Are you arguing that there are branches of religious Judiasm that have no... religious beliefs? Then they're not very religious, are they?

Since I'm not a member of either of them, I don't know how they would answer whether they are "religious" branches or not. What I do know is that Reconstructionist Jews have Sabbath services (I have attended several, and God is barely alluded to) and so do Humanistic Jews.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Even if they call themselves "nonreligious" branches, they remain, and explicitly so by their own definitions and formal statements, part of the larger Jewish community.

Arguably, atheism IS a religious belief, in that it holds a view about God. In any case, it goes to prove what I said; Judaism does not insist on any particular theology, not even that there is a God. You brought that up as an example of something Jews uniformly teach that supposedly comes from the Torah. We don't, and it doesn't.

Whoops. Since 1945, that one is EXTREMELY debatable. A very poor choice.

Oh please, let's not start a Holocaust whine, it's tiring. It's like blacks complaining about their ancestors being slaves and expecting sympathy today. Doesn't fly.

Nice try at distraction, but you also brought up the special protection of God as something that Judaism teaches. My point was that it doesn't, and nothing more.

In any case--"Worthless"? How does that square with "caring about the Jewish people"?

Just pointing out that you'd think God would have given his people a better piece of real estate.

That argument goes to God's existence, not to whether Judaism teaches it. As a formal doctrine, it doesn't.

It's an ancient joke that if God had really loved the Jews, He would have given us a land with some oil under it. Note my signature.

Also a good point. I was thinking more of a beautiful south-seas island, but hey, I'm flexible.

Would have been hard to get there from Egypt in the 15th century BCE, I suppose. That's a lot of water to part and a hell of a long walk.

So what? As I said, none of them are formally attributed to God by the Jewish religion, proven by the fact that all are debatable.

The same can be said about most things in Christianity, you've got sects that believe all sorts of weird things and you've got individual preachers, at least, who don't even believe in God, yet remain Christians. It just goes to prove that consistency of belief isn't required for religion.

Are you claiming that I say it is? I have been saying just the opposite from the beginning! You are supporting and agreeing with one of my major points!

What I have said, and consistently, is that the issue of the literal truth of the Bible is, in Judaism, irrelevant. The "binary" you mention above is related to the false dichotomies that YOU presented.

You keep missing the point, purposely I think, by demanding a literal reading of *ALL* of the Torah or no literal reading at all.

When have I ever said THAT? That has been and remains YOUR position!

The question specifically is, how do you come to the conclusion that some passages are valid and true, especially those passages which deal with the supernatural elements, while at the same time rejecting others?

And I have said over and over and OVER, the literal truth of those passages, in Judaism, DOES NOT MATTER, and Jews can believe what they please! They are neither accepted nor rejected, as literal truth or in any other way!

How do you use the Torah as a spiritual guide based only on a subjective reading of the work? Every time I ask that question, you run off on a rant about literalism and conveniently forget to answer the question.

That is not a question you have ever asked before--I invite you to show me a quote--but since you do ask now, when have I ever said that the Jewish reading of the Torah is subjective? I have said that the belief in God is subjective, not Torah study.


"Non-literal" and "subjective" are not the same thing. We study the principles taught in the Torah as explained, expanded upon, and analyzed by the tradition, and that study is as objective and rational as could be imagined. It takes place through debate and discussion, not through mysticism and prayer meetings.

Can you explain what you mean by "rejected"? Don't bother--you are obviously talking about literal, historical truth again, and not explaining why such "rejection" is tantamount to "discarding," which it isn't; nor dealing with the fact that the literal truth of those stories is neither accepted nor rejected in the first place, but held not to matter. Individual Jews may believe them or not, and nobody cares.

And there you go again. I'm not debating with all Jews, I'm debating with you.

Nice try again, but up to now we have been discussing Judaism, not my personal beliefs.

You have a remarkable habit of alleging that I am being unresponsive to questions that you have not brought up before. For proof, see below.

Stop telling me that all Jews don't agree and actually say what *YOU* think. Specifically, how do you determine which passages in the Torah are trustworthy and worthwhile and which are not.

Since you finally get around to asking, I'll be happy to answer, even the question that you carefully avoid asking, to wit;

Which passages in the Torah do I believe to be literally and historically true?

None.

Which passages do I believe to be worthwhile and trustworthy?

In terms of ethical, moral and spiritual guidance, and as interpreted and explained by the tradition, all of them.

How's that?

You're the one who claims that your Judiasm is logical and reasonable, you still haven't demonstrated how that is so.

As I said, and have said often, the teachings of Judaism have been determined and shaped, not by the Torah, but by the consensus of the wisest of our people through centuries of wholly rational, logical, and often contentious debates and discussions. They have continued to be so determined and shaped down to the present day.

If you want to dismiss that FACT as false and claim that those teachings are derived directly from the Torah by reading it literally, feel free; but you are taking a position and making a claim that is historically and factually wrong.

How does someone who approaches the Torah without any theistic belief or preconceptions read it and come to the conclusion that the Jewish religion is the true religion and that the beliefs of Judiasm are valid and reliable?

He doesn't. The Torah is not where the teachings of Judaism are to be found. I've said that rather often too.

If you're looking for the heart, the meaning, and the teachings of Judaism in the Torah, you're looking in the wrong place.

If you can't do that, and I've been asking for it since we started, then why are we wasting our time? Stop shucking and jiving and just answer the question.

I believe I have, and repeatedly; I have even answered questions you have not asked before.

Now when will you answer mine?

Here they are again. Hardly worth counting the number of times I've asked them, in exactly this form and sequence:

(1) Why is a literal reading of the Torah (or Bible) required to believe in God?

(2) Why is NOT reading the Torah (or Bible) in a literal manner equivalent to "throwing it out"?

I have no expectation whatever that you will answer them this time, but I am quite enjoying your efforts to duck and dodge and switch arguments and change positions and ignore points and try to prove ME inconsistent and unresponsive, in your continuing attempts to sound knowledgable about Judaism when you patently aren't--all in an effort to cover up the fact that you have, to date, not come within a thousand cubits of answering.

I am growing more and more certain that that is because you have come to realize that your initial assertions were based on false premises, and you do not have the intellectual honesty and integrity to admit that and withdraw them.

Can't wait for your next attempt. I'm enjoying this debate like a good steak. Kosher, of course.

[Ayah5768]

I just wanted to clarify something-- When I say a "Jewish Christian" is still Jewish, I am talking about an ethnic Jew is still an ethnic Jew because it is an ethnicity it doesn't go away based on religious beliefs.

I am not referring to Messianic Jews. I have visited Messianic churches and there was never an actual Jew there... at least, none that I met. Those churches consist of gentiles who are Christian and want to worship using the religion of Jesus--Judaism.

[cnorman18]

Hi, Cephus! It seems like this conversation is pretty emotionally charged so I've decided to step in and try to explain what Norman has been trying to say. It is sort of complicated.

There are two "types" of Jews--ethnic and religious. One can be an ethnic Jew and not be religious, religious but not ethnic (converts), or both. If you are neither, you are obviously not a Jew.

Being an ethnic Jew means that you were born to a Jewish mother. It means that if we could trace your lineage far enough back we would find Abraham, the father of the Jews. Ethnic Jews can forget over generations that they are Jews or not care that they are Jews but they can't stop being Jews any more than Micheal Jackson can stop being black--even though he certainly has tried. If you are an ethnic Jew it doesn't matter what you believe religiously, it doesn't matter if you are atheist, or even if you are Christian or Muslim--you are still a Jew.

Ethnic Jews sometimes will practice Jewish ceremonies and observe religious holidays even if they aren't religious in order to enjoy a connectedness with their heritage. They will say the some prayers that a religious Jew says but for different reasons.

A religious Jew (in America and Europe) usually falls into 1 of 4 categories based on their particular level of observance or 1 of 2 based on where their post-Abraham ancestors came from. You can convert to religious Judaism and your ethnicity is never questioned. In fact, if you converted, your children would be considered ethnic Jews just as your adoptive daughter's children would be considered your grandchildren.

A religious conversion takes quite a while. Oddly, it involves very little religion unless you want it to. It takes a while because a Jew is required to has a basic understanding of what it is to be Jewish. Understanding that involves reading a lot of books about holidays, ethics, and history among other topics. If you talk to your rabbi about religion he will talk to you about it, but his focus is usually on other things. A rabbi will very rarely (if ever) tell you what you should believe on any given topic and will often congratulate you on a point well made even if it is in stark contrast to his own. In fact, it is difficult to get through Torah study with 5 Jews because there is a lot of debate going on. On religious issues, Jews tend to agree to disagree an awful lot.

Once you have reached a point at which the rabbi feels you are appropriately schooled and dedicated (usually that takes about 6 months to a year), you have a sort of commitment ceremony. Questions are asked that are not about your particular view of God or Biblical topics, but rather whether you are committed to the people of Israel. (Meaning the descendants of the man Israel, not necessarily the country of Israel.) After you have said "yes" to those questions, you are a Jew and your children (if they are not yet born) are Jewish and on and on through all of the generations until the world is no longer. If your children have already been born, there is a separate conversion ceremony for them.

When talking about "the Jewish community" it is not meant to imply that we all agree on... well... anything really. There is a saying that if you ask 3 Jews the same question, you'll get 4 answers. This is because we barely agree with ourselves, much less each other. We are, after all, named "Israel" which means "struggles with God." The term "Jewish community" also doesn't imply that anyone who is a Jew cares about the rest of us. Although, it is a safe bet that even if a Jew doesn't care about us, we care very much about him.

To illustrate that point, lets discuss a tribe of African Jews that were separated from their European counterparts many, many generations ago. So long ago, in fact, that most of the world's Jews didn't even know they existed and they, in turn, didn't know about us... until there was famine effecting our brothers and sisters in Africa and word got out that there was a tribe of previously-unfamiliar-to-us Jews who were starving. Jewish people all over the world, whether ethnic or religious, orthodox or reform, Ashkenazi or Sephardi united in an effort to help the African Jews. This was not because their practices or beliefs were the same, it was because they had Jewish blood and were part of our community even if neither them nor us knew it. That is what we mean by "Jewish community."

Do Jews stand together fairly often in defense of a shared concern? Absolutely. Do we also often stand apart on issues? More than you can count. But, being Jewish is being a part of a family. You can agree or disagree, but you can't not be a part of it. You can care or not care, but you can't change who you are. Being Jewish is a complicated and beautiful thing and is not confined to doctrine.

If you want to debate the Jewish religion, gather several Jews together and they will probably argue amongst themselves rather than team up against you. Debate is part of who we are. While it is true that getting through a Jewish Bible study without a heated discussion is rather difficult (I haven't seen it happen yet) it is also true that after our heart rates have slowed, we will probably all get together for bagels and smear and part as friends. It is our way.

As for what Norman believes and whether it is logical, only he can answer that. I can say, though, that I have met very few Jews who are not logical in their beliefs. Jews tend to be a pretty practical people an base their beliefs on a very down-to-earth, reasonable mentality. I believe that that is why so many Jews enter into law or the sciences. It is in Judaism where most people find a comfortable union of religion and science.

A Jew who believes in Biblical literalism is a pretty tough find. Most of us are less concerned with whether there was a literal flood or exodus than with what those stories can tell us about the grit that makes up the Jewish soul. Biblical stories are often viewed as the history of Jewish thought and much less often as the history of God's actions.

Furthermore, we do not have "the true religion." We have a covenant with God. A non-Jew can have whatever religion he wants and is not considered a "sinner" whereas a Jewish Christian, for example, is an apostate and is practicing idolotry. Why? Because Judaism is for the Jews and the Jews are for Judaism. It is a Jew who ventures outside of Judaism by worshiping another God who is "doing something wrong" but a gentile who is Pagan or Muslim or any other religion is fully supported and a Jew who worships no God is also supported. That is why Jews don't try to convert people or convince people. There is no reason to.

We don't have all of the answers and we don't hold "the truth." We are chosen to keep God's laws but not because we are better than anyone else. We are God's people because when asked we accepted the task. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there is any such place as Heaven, the Jews will not be alone there.

Ayah, welcome to the forum and thank you. That was very well stated and beautifully written, and of course it confirms everything I have been trying to tell Cephus. I wish I had thought to mention the Falashas myself (although I understand that they don't care for that term).

It was a pleasure to read your post, and I look forward to reading many more.

Again, welcome.

(I'll bet I'm the only person on this forum who knows that the number in your screenname wasn't chosen at random....)

[Cephus]

It seems like this conversation is pretty emotionally charged so I've decided to step in and try to explain what Norman has been trying to say.

I'm sure he can explain himself, but you're more than welcome to step in and make your own views known.

There are two "types" of Jews--ethnic and religious. One can be an ethnic Jew and not be religious, religious but not ethnic (converts), or both. If you are neither, you are obviously not a Jew.

Yes, which is the point I've been trying to make. However, he seems to be trying to lump them all together under a single cohesive community which simply isn't the case.

It means that if we could trace your lineage far enough back we would find Abraham, the father of the Jews.

Theoretically, although whether Abraham ever really existed is questionable at best.

Ethnic Jews can forget over generations that they are Jews or not care that they are Jews but they can't stop being Jews any more than Micheal Jackson can stop being black--even though he certainly has tried.

In a genetic sense, yes, you can't stop being what's in your genes. As for Michael Jackson, we're not even sure what species he is anymore, he hardly looks human these days and certainly doesn't act it.

Ethnic Jews sometimes will practice Jewish ceremonies and observe religious holidays even if they aren't religious in order to enjoy a connectedness with their heritage.

Yes and that's a personal choice that they can make and this is a point I've made as well. It just doesn't make you part of one big interconnected Jewish family though.

When talking about "the Jewish community" it is not meant to imply that we all agree on... well... anything really.

Again, agree, which is sort of the point. As much as you might want to call it "the Jewish community", it's really nothing of the sort. You're really taking a huge group of people with wildly disparate beliefs and characteristics and declaring them all to be part of one group and they're simply not. You cannot find anything that they all share in common, they're not all ethnically similar, they're not all philosophically similar, they're not all religiously similar, they're a bunch of people who are only linked by the fact that you're using the word "Jew" to mean a lot of different things. That's not a community.

If you want to debate the Jewish religion, gather several Jews together and they will probably argue amongst themselves rather than team up against you.

Unfortunately, that's not terribly useful IMO. It's like watching two guys wearing tin-foil hats arguing whether it's shiny-side up or shiny-side down. Watching a bunch of people who are wrong argue over who is more wrong seems pointless to me.

As for what Norman believes and whether it is logical, only he can answer that.

I've been trying desperately to get him to explain it, he seems reluctant.

Jews tend to be a pretty practical people an base their beliefs on a very down-to-earth, reasonable mentality.

Depends on what you mean by down-to-earth and reasonable, of course. I don't view anyone with supernatural beliefs to be either down-to-earth or reasonable.

A Jew who believes in Biblical literalism is a pretty tough find.

I understand that and if not for cnorman18's insistence on literalism, which I never brought up, it wouldn't be an issue, but it remains a question how one draws any conclusions as to the reliability of the Torah, even in part, if you get to pick and choose what to believe. If you're seeking truth, then simply deciding that the things that personally appeal to you gets you nowhere but where you want to go. It doesn't provide evidence for actual, objective and factual reality.

We have a covenant with God.

You believe you have a covenant with God. You have faith that you have a covenant with God. Factually, that remains to be demonstrated. The Muslims think you're wrong, in fact they think both the Jews and the Christians have been misled. Whether one group is right or all groups are wrong, there simply is nothing but faith behind all three positions.

[PC1]

There isn't a Jew on Earth that doesn't recognize the difference between ethnic and religious Jews. What I am saying is that they are all Jews, and all part of the community.

I have to disagree on this point. From Wiki:

"In 1993 the Supreme Court of Israel, in a case involving a couple affiliated with Jews for Jesus, ruled that Jews who adhere to the Christian beliefs are regarded by Israeli law as "members of a different faith," and are not eligible for the automatic citizenship that Israel grants Jews."

[Cephus]

My last post was edited to direct you here almost as soon as it was posted.

Then I must have missed it, I didn't see it here the first time I looked.

"Practicing Jew" implies "religious Jew"--if one is not born Jewish, what else could it mean?

One can follow the traditions and rituals of the Jewish religion without going to a Temple, can they not? You can certainly be a Christian without ever stepping foot in a church, being a part of your magical "community" doesn't seem to be necessary to actually practicing the religion. And yes, I most certainly have seen a Siddur, I actually own one.

You are still a Jew, unless you choose to worship another god, e.g. Jesus or Allah.

Actually, you're still a Jew, it's in your genes. Nothing you can do can stop you from being a Jew.

Jews of all varieties of faith or nonfaith celebrate Passover, for instance, and there is no single set order of service.

Not all Jews do, however.

There is no metric. It is up to the individual judgment of the members of the Bet Din.

So they could be having a bad day and decide they just don't want to accept you today? That's kind of stupid.

What if it is? The principle remains.

No, the principle falls apart completely. What you're describing is a vague, nebulous idea of interconnectedness based on a loose usage of the word "Jew" to apply to different, basically unrelated things. The way you're using it, you have less of a basis for using "community" than the black community does. They at least have skin color, you have no common thread tying everyone together. You've got ethnic-non-religious Jews and non-ethnic-religious Jews who have nothing whatsoever in common, yet you're lumping them together in the same "community".

As a practical matter, if one identifies oneself as a Jew, one identifies oneself as a member of the community.

Says you. When I say I'm white, it doesn't make me part of the "white community", when I say I have blue eyes, it doesn't make me part of the "blue-eyed community". Identifying yourself as a Jew doesn't make you magically part of the "Jewish community" no matter how much you might wish it were so.

I thought you were arguing that if one chooses not to self-identify as Jewish, then one isn't. Are you getting mixed up in your own arguments, just so you can disagree with me?

No, I'm saying that someone who is ethnically, genetically Jewish, for lack of a better term, even if they never identify themselves as Jewish, even if they aren't even aware that they are Jewish, is still Jewish. Just to use an example that was recently brought up, no matter how many times Michael Jackson bleaches his skin or changes his nose or whatever, even if he never refers to himself as black, Michael Jackson is black, period. It's in his genes.

I'm not getting this. I said that one is Jewish either by birth or by conversion. You are here admitting that the first is correct.

No, I'm simply stating that self-identification or lack of self-identification doesn't change the facts. Whether or not an ethnic Jew says they're a Jew, they're still a Jew.

Why else would one join?

You're the one saying people are automatically members if they're born Jewish. Who is joining?

Jews represent a critical voting bloc in only a few districts nationwide (and even there, they do not vote monolithically as a group).

No but they do have a vocal lobby in Washington which is all that matters in cases of foreign aid.

Do you think that only Jews favor aid to Israel?

Oh, there's a huge Christian lobby for aid to Israel, but it's not one that you really want. They only want Israel to stick around so the end times can come and all Israelis can get killed. They're not exactly a Jew's best friend.

Is America one community? Is there ANYTHING upon which all Americans agree, INCLUDING who is and is not an American?

No, nor would I claim that it was. However, Americans all have one thing in common, they all are citizens of the United States of America. Jews don't even have that.

Arguably, atheism IS a religious belief, in that it holds a view about God.

You could argue that, but you'd be wrong. Atheism is the LACK OF BELIEF in god(s). If atheism is a belief than bald is a hair color.

Would have been hard to get there from Egypt in the 15th century BCE, I suppose. That's a lot of water to part and a hell of a long walk.

Hey, if God can flood the planet, you'd think he could put the ark down in a better place than Mt. Ararat.

When have I ever said THAT? That has been and remains YOUR position!

Your mischaracterisation of my position at least. I've never said that, in fact, you're the one who brought up literalism in the first place.

And I have said over and over and OVER, the literal truth of those passages, in Judaism, DOES NOT MATTER, and Jews can believe what they please! They are neither accepted nor rejected, as literal truth or in any other way!

And I keep asking you, and you keep dodging, how you can determine which passages are literally true (note I didn't say factual, I said true) and which are not? How do you determine that passage A is true and passage B is not? What logical steps, since you insist that your faith is logical, do you go through to make these determinations? Stop dodging and answer the bloody question!

That is not a question you have ever asked before--I invite you to show me a quote--but since you do ask now, when have I ever said that the Jewish reading of the Torah is subjective? I have said that the belief in God is subjective, not Torah study.

You're not reading the same thread, are you? But here you go, just one of many examples:

You're really hung up on that word, aren't you? I don't use it because every time I do, you go into a binary "the whole Torah has to be completely and totally literal" or "we get to pick and choose whatever we want because we feel like it" and the answer is in the middle somewhere. If you're going to reject stories in the Torah like the creation story or the flood story or the burning bush story, then why not just reject the whole God concept? You're the one who keeps insisting that your beliefs are logical and reasonable, yet every time I ask you to demonstrate how you logically or reasonably come to the conclusion that God exists, you change the subject.

We study the principles taught in the Torah as explained, expanded upon, and analyzed by the tradition, and that study is as objective and rational as could be imagined.

Which doesn't explain anything. What you basically just said is that you believe because you believe what everyone before you has believed. All that tells me is that you haven't bothered to actually think about it for yourself, you've simply blindly accepted what people before you have come up with.

Sorry, tradition doesn't impress me. Basically, that's just a whole line of people being wrong.

Nice try again, but up to now we have been discussing Judaism, not my personal beliefs.

No, we're debating both. You're the one who insists that your beliefs are logical and rational, I'm asking you to back that up. You're also making the claim now that Judiasm is likewise logical and rational, I want you to back that up. Hell, I want you to back SOMETHING up.

In terms of ethical, moral and spiritual guidance, and as interpreted and explained by the tradition, all of them.

And why? How do you come to that conclusion? Specifically what steps do you take to make that determination?

As I said, and have said often, the teachings of Judaism have been determined and shaped, not by the Torah, but by the consensus of the wisest of our people through centuries of wholly rational, logical, and often contentious debates and discussions.

Which doesn't make any of them right.

If you're looking for the heart, the meaning, and the teachings of Judaism in the Torah, you're looking in the wrong place.

Then pick anywhere that you consider to be the heart, the meaning and the teachings of Judiasm and apply the same question.

(1) Why is a literal reading of the Torah (or Bible) required to believe in God?

And I can only answer it so many times, you're the only one who seems to care about a literal reading of the Torah (or anything else). Enough beating this strawman.

(2) Why is NOT reading the Torah (or Bible) in a literal manner equivalent to "throwing it out"?

Quote where I said it was. I'll wait. Sure, you can find where I mentioned "throwing it out", but not in the context you're casting it.

[Ayah5768]

I'm sure he can explain himself, but you're more than welcome to step in and make your own views known.

He certainly can, and he has done quite a good job. I thought that perhaps another voice would take some of the emotion out of it for those reading the thread.

Yes, which is the point I've been trying to make. However, he seems to be trying to lump them all together under a single cohesive community which simply isn't the case.

That is because an ethnic Jew doesn't have to practice to be part of the "community" which I have described in my earlier post.

Please give me a clear definition of what a "single cohesive community" is and I will gladly respond to whether or not Jews are one. Also, I'm sure Norman will respond as to whether what you are describing is in fact what he means by "Jewish community."

It means that if we could trace your lineage far enough back we would find Abraham, the father of the Jews.

Theoretically, although whether Abraham ever really existed is questionable at best.

It sure is. That is for another thread, though. My point was that there is such thing as a Jewish ethnicity, which you have recognized already. Traditionally speaking, Abraham was the beginning of the official "Jewish" ethnicity. Prior to that, our ancestors were called Hebrews and were an ethnicity.

Ethnic Jews can forget over generations that they are Jews or not care that they are Jews but they can't stop being Jews any more than Micheal Jackson can stop being black--even though he certainly has tried.

In a genetic sense, yes, you can't stop being what's in your genes. As for Michael Jackson, we're not even sure what species he is anymore, he hardly looks human these days and certainly doesn't act it.

Hehehe. Michael Jackson. What a nut!

Anyway, when talking about ethnicity what are we talking about if not genes? Ethnicity is based on a presumed common genealogy and why does your genealogy matter? ...

So, we agree that an ethnic Jew, by definition, can't stop being an ethnic Jew?

Ethnic Jews sometimes will practice Jewish ceremonies and observe religious holidays even if they aren't religious in order to enjoy a connectedness with their heritage.

Yes and that's a personal choice that they can make and this is a point I've made as well. It just doesn't make you part of one big interconnected Jewish family though.

It does and it doesn't. Us being a "big interconnected Jewish family" is a big part of being Jewish, though. As an ethnic Jew who didn't practice for my entire life until very recently I can tell you that there is a *something* to being Jewish which is not ignorable, that is part of you even when you aren't practicing, and which feels an awful lot like being part of a big interconnected Jewish family. The interconnected Jewish family is something that I have experienced in various ways throughout my life. What is your experience with it that makes you more of an expert on it than I am?

Again, agree, which is sort of the point. As much as you might want to call it "the Jewish community", it's really nothing of the sort. You're really taking a huge group of people with wildly disparate beliefs and characteristics and declaring them all to be part of one group and they're simply not. You cannot find anything that they all share in common, they're not all ethnically similar, they're not all philosophically similar, they're not all religiously similar, they're a bunch of people who are only linked by the fact that you're using the word "Jew" to mean a lot of different things. That's not a community.

Jews are ethnically similar. Here... from the dictionary. The relevant portions are in bold and my comments are in Red.

[center]eth·nic

1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

Such as holidays, traditions, Hebrew, Yiddish, etc.

2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

Remember those genetics we discussed earlier?

3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

Jews (ethnic or otherwise) make up approximately .22% of the population of the world. We are under 2% of the US population. Israel is the only place in the entire world where Jews are not a minority within a larger society. So, I guess Israeli Jews don't fit here...

4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

Yeah... Jews don't have their own cultural, religious or linguistic traditions.... nope... not us.[/center]

Now, are we a community?

[center]com·mu·ni·ty

1. a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.

While Jews don't necessarily live in Israel, we all have a citizenship of sorts. The government there is a shared blessing or curse to all Jews. As shown earlier, there is no doubt that we share a common culture and historical heritage.

2. a locality inhabited by such a group.

3. a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually prec. by the): the business community; the community of scholars.

We share a social and religious characteristics and interests and we perceive ourselves as distinct from the larger society in which we exist.

4. a group of associated nations sharing common interests or a common heritage: the community of Western Europe.

5. Ecclesiastical. a group of men or women leading a common life according to a rule.

We live according to a common rule.

6. Ecology. an assemblage of interacting populations occupying a given area.

7. joint possession, enjoyment, liability, etc.: community of property.

8. similar character; agreement; identity: community of interests.

Jews share a similar character, identity and interest in Judaism.

9. the community, the public; society: the needs of the community.[/center]

Since we only need 1, I'd say that 4 ain't bad. You?

Also, I would like to point out Webster's use of the word "perceive." That word alone makes us a community. When using the actual meaning of the word "community" it is extremely difficult to make the point that there is no such thing as a Jewish Community.

Please take the time to read what I italicized if you haven't already. Thank you.

If you want to debate the Jewish religion, gather several Jews together and they will probably argue amongst themselves rather than team up against you.

Unfortunately, that's not terribly useful IMO. It's like watching two guys wearing tin-foil hats arguing whether it's shiny-side up or shiny-side down. Watching a bunch of people who are wrong argue over who is more wrong seems pointless to me.

First, we don't argue over who is wrong because there are layers to our belief and if our point can be laid out reasonably no Jew will tell us we are "wrong." It is not so black and white.

Second, you have a tendency to say things that are not conducive to honest debate. Lets not forget that you come here for, I'm sure, many reasons and at least one of those is to talk to people who disagree with you. Otherwise, any old mutual-admiration society would do and I will gladly link you to one or two of them. Whether you care to admit it or not, you are here because, for one reason or another, you enjoy discussing things with people of differing views. Even if it is only to convince them that they are "wrong" you are here because you want to talk to people on the other side of a topic. To that end, you should probably try to use language that is not so quick to shut the other person down and make an otherwise nice person want to say things to you that could probably get them thrown off the boards.

Just sayin....

I've been trying desperately to get him to explain it, he seems reluctant.

He has yet to be reluctant to respond to anything you have asked. I think that perhaps you are too busy thinking that you know everything and everyone else is just living in varying degrees of wrongness to notice when a question has been answered.

Jews tend to be a pretty practical people an base their beliefs on a very down-to-earth, reasonable mentality.

Depends on what you mean by down-to-earth and reasonable, of course. I don't view anyone with supernatural beliefs to be either down-to-earth or reasonable.

Judaism, as previously mentioned to you, is not terribly supernatural. People see our Tanakh tacked on to the Christian Bible and think that we are the same. We are not. People read stories in the Tanakh about miracles and think that a literal view of those stories are as common to Jews as it is to Christians. It is not. In fact, "supernatural" discussion is rarely heard in a synagogue. Jews are not who you think they are.

I understand that and if not for cnorman18's insistence on literalism, which I never brought up, it wouldn't be an issue, but it remains a question how one draws any conclusions as to the reliability of the Torah, even in part, if you get to pick and choose what to believe. If you're seeking truth, then simply deciding that the things that personally appeal to you gets you nowhere but where you want to go. It doesn't provide evidence for actual, objective and factual reality.

There is more to Judaism than the Torah. Once again, you are basing an argument on your very clear understanding of other religions and an equally as clear lack of understanding of Judaism. Don't worry about it, though, (not that you would). There is a reason why Jews study their entire life. Because life isn't black and white and neither is Judaism.

A literal view of the Bible would make things easier, to be sure. Fundamentalist Christians enjoy that ease of use. If Jewish history has taught me anything, though, it is that we are rarely handed and rarely take the easy way out.

We have a covenant with God.

You believe you have a covenant with God. You have faith that you have a covenant with God. Factually, that remains to be demonstrated.

I believe that historically speaking my people followed certain laws because of an, at the very least, perceived covenant with God. I continue to study those laws and live according to a code of ethics which most Jews live by. That is me maintaining the history and heritage of the Jews.

By "covenant with God" I am not implying that I believe that Sinai was a literal meeting of the Hebrew people and God. I am simply using the understood terminology of several thousand years worth of Jews. Whether there is a "factual" covenant which can be "demonstrated" is not for me to determine or prove. Certainly not to a gentile who has no use of such a thing anyway.

The Muslims think you're wrong, in fact they think both the Jews and the Christians have been misled. Whether one group is right or all groups are wrong, there simply is nothing but faith behind all three positions.

Of course they do. And God bless them for it. After all if they thought we were right, they wouldn't be Muslims, they'd be Jews, and a rich and interesting culture would be lost.

I noticed that you didn't respond to this:

When talking about "the Jewish community" it is not meant to imply that we all agree on... well... anything really. There is a saying that if you ask 3 Jews the same question, you'll get 4 answers. This is because we barely agree with ourselves, much less each other. We are, after all, named "Israel" which means "struggles with God." The term "Jewish community" also doesn't imply that anyone who is a Jew cares about the rest of us. Although, it is a safe bet that even if a Jew doesn't care about us, we care very much about him.

To illustrate that point, lets discuss a tribe of African Jews that were separated from their European counterparts many, many generations ago. So long ago, in fact, that most of the world's Jews didn't even know they existed and they, in turn, didn't know about us... until there was famine effecting our brothers and sisters in Africa and word got out that there was a tribe of previously-unfamiliar-to-us Jews who were starving. Jewish people all over the world, whether ethnic or religious, orthodox or reform, Ashkenazi or Sephardi united in an effort to help the African Jews. This was not because their practices or beliefs were the same, it was because they had Jewish blood and were part of our community even if neither them nor us knew it. That is what we mean by "Jewish community."

...which clearly illustrates what we mean when we talk about the Jewish community.

You also didn't respond to this:

Furthermore, we do not have "the true religion." [...] A non-Jew can have whatever religion he wants and is not considered a "sinner" whereas a Jewish Christian, for example, is an apostate and is practicing idolotry. Why? Because Judaism is for the Jews and the Jews are for Judaism. It is a Jew who ventures outside of Judaism by worshiping another God who is "doing something wrong" but a gentile who is Pagan or Muslim or any other religion is fully supported and a Jew who worships no God is also supported. That is why Jews don't try to convert people or convince people. There is no reason to.

We don't have all of the answers and we don't hold "the truth." We are chosen to keep God's laws but not because we are better than anyone else. We are God's people because when asked we accepted the task. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there is any such place as Heaven, the Jews will not be alone there.

...which is a pretty clear explanation of the fact that we do not take "on faith" that we are "right" and everyone else is "wrong."

Is there a reason for your ignoring those parts of my post?