Muslims worship Muhammad…

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):

While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.

I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:

Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).

[muhammad rasullah]

I find it very funny that while giving the definitions of worship you only bold those which you think are relevant to the point which you are trying to make.

I'm glad you found some humor in that. Actually, its pretty common in rational discussions to draw correlations to point out facts and evidence.

But since you aretrying to do this I will use your own definitions which you bolded against youto prove my case.

Oh please do. I'm on pins and needles!

Sacred means devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated. So from the definition which you gave of worship it says any object regarded as sacred.

Uh Oh! It looks like you had a little trouble with the cut and paste function. Don't worry, I'll help you out by giving the full definition below - leaving no parts out this time. But first, so lets just take a look at what you said about the Quran, shall we?

The quran is not just merely a book. It contains in it the word of God and should be treated with dignity and respect and honor and given praise to.

-bold emphasis is mine.

Now, lets refresh on the first definition of "worship" with which you promised to use against me to prove your case:

wor·ship verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

So, if you give honor and homage to any person or thing as sacred that falls squarely in the bounds of the definition of "worship" and means that you do worship that thing or person whether you think you do or not, right?

Okay so now lets look at the definition of "sacred." Here's where I help you out by actually copying the correct definition from the dictionary.

sa·cred –adjective
1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
2. entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
3. pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to secular or profane): sacred music; sacred books.
4. reverently dedicated to some person, purpose, or object: a morning hour sacred to study.
5. regarded with reverence: the sacred memory of a dead hero.
6. secured against violation, infringement, etc , as by reverence or sense of right: sacred oaths; sacred rights.
7. properly immune from violence, interference, etc., as a person or office.

As you can see, considering something "sacred" does NOT require that you believe it is actually a deity. It means it can be "dedicated to a deity, or some religious purpose." It can mean something or someone that is "entitled to religious respect" by association with a deity, which would definitely prove that Muhammad is held sacred to Muslims! It also proves that you consider the Quran sacred by your own statement that it deserves religious respect due to the fact that it is the "word of God." Sacred can also mean something that is regarded with reverence, as you described the Quran, or secured against violation, as in the taboo against drawing pictures of Muhammad.

Worship: To hold something sacred
Sacred: To be regarded with reverence as ASSOCIATED WITH a deity.

So, unless you are going to try to re-write the whole dictionary, perhaps we should call this discussion over because we have clearly proven without a doubt that Muslims not only worship Muhammad, they also worship the Quran.

I'm waiting and if you have a better interpretation of the first definition you gave me of worship then bring it. Please!!! I'm waiting!!!

Gee, hope I didn't disappoint you.

As you can see, considering something "sacred" does NOT require that you believe it is actually a deity. It means it can be "dedicated to a deity, or some religious purpose." It can mean something or someone that is "entitled to religious respect" by association with a deity, which would definitely prove that Muhammad is held sacred to Muslims! It also proves that you consider the Quran sacred by your own statement that it deserves religious respect due to the fact that it is the "word of God." Sacred can also mean something that is regarded with reverence, as you described the Quran, or secured against violation, as in the taboo against drawing pictures of Muhammad.

I agree with the definitions you gave of sacred and I agree with this statement. But you don't see that all things which are sacred are not worshiped. When it says associated with a deity muslims do not associate him as an equal with Allah but as the Messenger of Allah. The church is held sacred to christians but do you worship your church? The ten commandments are held sacred to christians and muslims but do they worship the ten commandments? There are many things in every religion which are entitled to religious respect but to say that these things are worshiped is false. This is not worship but these things are a part of worship and are entitled to religious repect due to the fact it is a part of your religious practise.

So the emphasis which you place on both definitions of worship and sacred are both false in determining what is being worshiped. Because these things you place emphasis on are a part of worship but not what is actually being worshiped. In both definitions you negated the fact of what is being worshiped and referred to the acts of worship actually being what is worshiped themselves. This is what I said before but you refused to accept. Anything which is a part of a person's religion is in some way shape or form held sacred. So to say that you only hold God as sacred but the revelation he has given you, the way of life he has prescribed, which includes practises you don't hold them sacred is just plain ridiculous. Because in some way shape or form you give religious repsect to them which these practises are entitled to. Just as Moses did when God told him to take off thy shoes for the place which thy standest is holy ground exodus 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. This is a religious respect commanded by God given to Moses. Now does that mean that moses worships where he stands? No. And When Moses and Aaron washed before they prayed Exodus 40:31 And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat:
32 When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the LORD commanded Moses.
This also fits the defintion you put by serving some religious purpose. So does Moses worship this? No because it is an act of worship because from the portion which you refuse to acknowledge this is dedicated in homage to the commandment of God. So this what Moses was doing was an act of worship done publicly by homage to God's commandments. So who does moses worship?

You see what you fail to realize is that by trying to prove that I and other muslims worship Muhammad you are going against what you believe. Because muslims wash their hands and their feet before praying and we take off our shoes before entering the mosque our place of worship or tabernacle which is used in the bible. So tell me, by Moses doing this who does he worship?

[muhammad rasullah]

I find it very funny that while giving the definitions of worship you only bold those which you think are relevant to the point which you are trying to make.

Yes, indeed. It's hilarious that someone would highlight parts of the text which are relevant to the point they're making.

I was about to post something similar.

The conclusion I have come to in this thread is that Muslims have a totally different idea to what is defined as worship than the the rest of the world.

Well there are things which need to be clarified that is all. Because there are things which are a part of worship and then there is the deity that is actually worshipped. These are the things which the acts of worship are done for. So the difference must be distinguished to know what is a part of worship and what is being worshipped.

[carolineislands]

... But you don't see that all things which are sacred are not worshiped.

wor·ship verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

I just want to know if you intend to continue going round and round and round in circles to avoid having to admit that you were proven wrong. Because, although you might achieve the goal of wearing people down until they simply don't care to continue trying to discuss anything with you, it will not change the facts.

When it says associated with a deity muslims do not associate him as an equal with Allah

The definition does not require that you consider this sacred person or thing EQUAL with God, only that you GIVE IT HONOR AND HOMAGE TO A SACRED PERSON OR THING.

but as the Messenger of Allah. The church is held sacred to christians but do you worship your church? The ten commandments are held sacred to christians

Some may, I do not. But that is irrelevant because this is not a discussion about Christian churches or the Ten Commandments, it's a discussion about whether or not muslims worship Muhammad.

So the emphasis which you place on both definitions of worship and sacred are both false in determining what is being worshiped.

We are clear on what is being worshiped - Muhammad, and the Quran. Are you trying to change the definitions again?

Because these things you place emphasis on are a part of worship but not what is actually being worshiped.

No they don't. We're clear on what is being worsipped - Muhammad and the Quran.

In both definitions you negated the fact of what is being worshiped and referred to the acts of worship actually being what is worshiped themselves.

No I didn't. If I had of done that I would have said that you worshiped the taboos against reading the Quran on the pot and drawing cartoons of Muhammad, which would have been too ludicrous for me to say because then you would be worshiping the acts of worship instead of the thing being worshiped and you can't worship worship.

Am I speaking your language yet?

This is what I said before but you refused to accept.

I believe I've said this to you before, but the number of times you repeat an untruth does not make it true. Perhaps you have picked up this idea from the fact that so many people are able to make themselves believe in the Quran by endless repetitions, but it doesn't work in reality. You can call a piece of paper a hundred dollar bill as many times as you want to but I'm still not going to accept it for payment and neither is anybody else.

..Just as Moses did when God told him...

Once again, you have strayed from the topic. We are discussing the fact that Muslims worship Muhammad.

You see what you fail to realize is that by trying to prove that I and other muslims worship Muhammad you are going against what you believe.

Really? Care to explain to me what I believe?

Because muslims wash their hands and their feet before praying and we take off our shoes before entering the mosque our place of worship or tabernacle which is used in the bible. So tell me, by Moses doing this who does he worship?

If Moses is behaving towards the tabernacle as Muslims do towards Muhammad and the Quran, he is worshipping it. But I can't speak for Moses because I don't know if he worshipped the Tabernacle or not. I guess I'd have to have more information. It is clear, however, that Muslims worship Muhammad. They just don't admit, even to themselves.

[carolineislands]

The conclusion I have come to in this thread is that Muslims have a totally different idea to what is defined as worship than the the rest of the world.

I think that most Muslim's definitions for things are rather fluid.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Yet they truly believe they worship only allâh and simply cannot think clearly about their worship of Muhammad even when faced with such a logical and rational explanation as Caroline gave in this thread! Some sort of Orwellian doublethink at play here…

[muhammad rasullah]

... But you don't see that all things which are sacred are not worshiped.

wor·ship verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

I just want to know if you intend to continue going round and round and round in circles to avoid having to admit that you were proven wrong. Because, although you might achieve the goal of wearing people down until they simply don't care to continue trying to discuss anything with you, it will not change the facts.

When it says associated with a deity muslims do not associate him as an equal with Allah

The definition does not require that you consider this sacred person or thing EQUAL with God, only that you GIVE IT HONOR AND HOMAGE TO A SACRED PERSON OR THING.

but as the Messenger of Allah. The church is held sacred to christians but do you worship your church? The ten commandments are held sacred to christians

Some may, I do not. But that is irrelevant because this is not a discussion about Christian churches or the Ten Commandments, it's a discussion about whether or not muslims worship Muhammad.

So the emphasis which you place on both definitions of worship and sacred are both false in determining what is being worshiped.

We are clear on what is being worshiped - Muhammad, and the Quran. Are you trying to change the definitions again?

Because these things you place emphasis on are a part of worship but not what is actually being worshiped.

No they don't. We're clear on what is being worsipped - Muhammad and the Quran.

In both definitions you negated the fact of what is being worshiped and referred to the acts of worship actually being what is worshiped themselves.

No I didn't. If I had of done that I would have said that you worshiped the taboos against reading the Quran on the pot and drawing cartoons of Muhammad, which would have been too ludicrous for me to say because then you would be worshiping the acts of worship instead of the thing being worshiped and you can't worship worship.

Am I speaking your language yet?

This is what I said before but you refused to accept.

I believe I've said this to you before, but the number of times you repeat an untruth does not make it true. Perhaps you have picked up this idea from the fact that so many people are able to make themselves believe in the Quran by endless repetitions, but it doesn't work in reality. You can call a piece of paper a hundred dollar bill as many times as you want to but I'm still not going to accept it for payment and neither is anybody else.

..Just as Moses did when God told him...

Once again, you have strayed from the topic. We are discussing the fact that Muslims worship Muhammad.

You see what you fail to realize is that by trying to prove that I and other muslims worship Muhammad you are going against what you believe.

Really? Care to explain to me what I believe?

Because muslims wash their hands and their feet before praying and we take off our shoes before entering the mosque our place of worship or tabernacle which is used in the bible. So tell me, by Moses doing this who does he worship?

If Moses is behaving towards the tabernacle as Muslims do towards Muhammad and the Quran, he is worshipping it. But I can't speak for Moses because I don't know if he worshipped the Tabernacle or not. I guess I'd have to have more information. It is clear, however, that Muslims worship Muhammad. They just don't admit, even to themselves.

The definition does not require that you consider this sacred person or thing EQUAL with God, only that you GIVE IT HONOR AND HOMAGE TO A SACRED PERSON OR THING.

Well apparently to associate means to
1. to connect or bring into relation, as thought, feeling, memory, etc.: Many people associate dark clouds with depression and gloom.
2. to join as a companion, partner, or ally: to associate oneself with a cause.
3. to unite; combine: coal associated with shale.
So from tis definition it is saying that by association it means as a partner or equal or companion. The prophets association with Allah is not the case. The prophet is a Slave and messenger of Allah so he cannot be his associate. And no the definition does not say by just paying homage and reverence to him it says association by divinity. Meaning equal to God and Muslms do not view muhammad this way.

2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. This is one of the many definitions given for worship so tell how do muslims worship muhammad in this regard. don't you attend worship? If a person goes to the mosque or church is that being worshiped. No because this is a part of worship and everything you say that a muslim does that was done by muhammad is a part of worship but not what is being worshiped itself. You can't point out one thing that a muslim says or does which gives any inclination that they worship muhammad.

Some may, I do not. But that is irrelevant because this is not a discussion about Christian churches or the Ten Commandments, it's a discussion about whether or not muslims worship Muhammad.

The discussion goes even deeper when you say that muslims worship Muhammad because again by claiming that we worship Muhammad you are in fact saying that all those people that came before Muhammad worshiped their prophets as well and this is totally false.

We are clear on what is being worshiped - Muhammad, and the Quran. Are you trying to change the definitions again?

Nope sorry whatdo you mean by we. Apparently not. I am not changing the definitions you just don't have a clear understanding. Tell me please what are some acts of worship so we can know what is being worshipped and what is a part of the worship of that thing being worship? We have to be clear.

Once again, you have strayed from the topic. We are discussing the fact that Muslims worship Muhammad.

Why won't you address this issue about Moses? and this is about the topic because we follow all the prophets and the prophet Muhammad followed what was prescribed to the prophets before him. Like the wshing of the feet and hands before entering the place of worship. so please tell me because muslims do this or don't you know are we worshipping Moses as well as Muhammad because you have yet to tell me what are acts of worship which is what you seem to beleive that or acts or worship is worship of Muhammad. There is nothing the muslims says or does which could possibly lead one to think that they worship muhammad and since you can't bring anything the muslim says you have only to pull from what muslims do. So this is what we do and what Moses did so answer the question please do we worship Moses as wel as muhammad?

Really? Care to explain to me what I believe?

Well I'll try bu since you're afraid to state what you believe then I'll just be guessing. But drawing from your other post you are in some way shape or form christian and believe that jesus is God maybe. if I am wrong please let the world know what is it you believe in? whether it's the bible or science or anything?

If Moses is behaving towards the tabernacle as Muslims do towards Muhammad and the Quran, he is worshipping it. But I can't speak for Moses because I don't know if he worshipped the Tabernacle or not. I guess I'd have to hav. e more information. It is clear, however, that Muslims worship Muhammad. They just don't admit, even to themselves.

[/quote]
You'd have to have more information! the information is there in your bible that you have. Exodus 3:5 & 40:31,32 and they washed as the Lord commanded Moses. It seems as much as you think you know about Islam you don't know too much about your bible and religion.

[muhammad rasullah]

Yet they truly believe they worship only allâh and simply cannot think clearly about their worship of Muhammad even when faced with such a logical and rational explanation as Caroline gave in this thread! Some sort of Orwellian doublethink at play here…

Okay! give me some acts of worship which are general. So Iknw you know the difference between what is being worshipped and the acts of worship.

[Bigmo]

Its not that they worship Muhammad but Sunni and Shia only seem to recognize Muhammad and ignore the other prophets. The Koran says:

2.253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom God spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if God had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if God had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but God doeth what He will

3.84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."

22.78. And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to God. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

[muhammad rasullah]

Its not that they worship Muhammad but Sunni and Shia only seem to recognize Muhammad and ignore the other prophets. The Koran says:

2.253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom God spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if God had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if God had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but God doeth what He will

3.84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."

22.78. And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to God. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Bring me one muslim who ignores the other prophets and I will show you they aren't muslim. No muslim ignores the other prophets and from my knowledge Sunni especially does not ignore the other prophets neither dos shi'ite. If you can show me this I would like to see it.

[Bigmo]

Its not that they worship Muhammad but Sunni and Shia only seem to recognize Muhammad and ignore the other prophets. The Koran says:

2.253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom God spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if God had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if God had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but God doeth what He will

3.84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."

22.78. And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to God. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Bring me one muslim who ignores the other prophets and I will show you they aren't muslim. No muslim ignores the other prophets and from my knowledge Sunni especially does not ignore the other prophets neither dos shi'ite. If you can show me this I would like to see it.

Read the Koran and see how often the Koran talks about the prophets. Meanwhile go to the mosque and see whose sunnah is talked about and who is continually praised. Go watch a sufi gathering and see who is continously praised. Ask your sunni brethren who is the best of creation and whose name was written underneath God's throne and was seen by Adam. Ask them who was the greatest household and most notable. Ask them who are the masters of the youth in Paradise. Ask them what language is used in Paradise. Ask them what is the most noble language for God. Ask them where is the center of the world and ask them which spot will the resurrection start from. Ask them who will be the leader of intercessors on judgement day.