Proof The Quran Is True

[JoeyKnothead]

Let's examine the Quran and see if it can be proven to be the actual word of Allah, or prove the existence of Allah.

muhammad rasullah has offered some evidence, that if proven correct, to me at least would be very powerful proof for the Quran's claims...

So what you are searching for is proof that the knowledge in the quran man could not have come up with himself. Okay I will consent to that.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
How could this have been known at the time of the prophet over 1400 years ago? It is there and science has proven this a a fact. So now you have to answer the question in a reasonable and logical way with proof as to where else this knowledge could've come from? considering that knowone knew this to be true.
The link is given and you can read more about it yourself...

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html
_________________
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem "In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful"

[tyga]

The Koran is full of superstition and outright absurd statements.

I believe the Koran and Islam, the religion that embraces the Koran, ought be treated with the contempt that they deserve.

Do you feel the same about the bible and christianity? If not, why not?

Are you asking me what I feel, or what I believe?

I'll answer both.

I feel, saddened that as a collective human consciousness, we prefer to waste our energy and resources on a superstitious, juvenile need for idolatrous God worship, rather than collectively enlightening ourselves into a new age of unprecedented, emancipated conscious self awareness. The type of which the bible happens to mentions, in its rare rational portions.

I believe, that the human race is so bogged down in legalistic religious dogma and political ideology, that even becoming conscious of truth about our own self deluded, paranoid, superstitious, egophrenic human condition, is a constant uphill battle against ignorance and out right insanity. The possibility of elevating the collective consciousness, at this time, is about as likely as pushing a camel through a needle. In my humble opinion.

Does that answer your question?

[tyga]

I'll like to make a logical proposition, that I believe helps to clear the confusion associated with God and all the suggested arguments for and against a belief.

Clarity is always desirable over delusion, I tend to believe.

For the sake of argument, lets presume that God, or Allah, or whatever other name you prefer to call your concept of supreme beingness, is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnihilarious. Ok, I made the last one up, but hey, if your omniscient, your probably going to know some pretty damn funny stories and capable of making up a few good ones as well.

If God is omnipotent, then we also must assume that God is infinite.

If God were not infinite, God would not be omnipotent, then God would not be God.

The human mind is finite. Being finite by nature, the human mind is incapable of conceiving of the infinite.

If the human mind were infinite, which it isn't, then the human mind would be God, which it isn't.

All human minds and all human concepts and beliefs are finite.

Being finite conceptions, human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed.

All human minds and human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed because being by nature finite, they cannot ever presume to contain the infinite.

God, being infinite, is not flawed.

God, being infinite, is not a human concept or belief.

Human concepts, being finite, can only describe what God is not.

All human beliefs and concepts of or about God, describe what God is not, as all human concepts and beliefs describe the finite.

A belief in God, is a belief or concept in the finite.

A belief in God therefore, is a belief or concept in what God is not.

[muhammad rasullah]

I'll like to make a logical proposition, that I believe helps to clear the confusion associated with God and all the suggested arguments for and against a belief.

Clarity is always desirable over delusion, I tend to believe.

For the sake of argument, lets presume that God, or Allah, or whatever other name you prefer to call your concept of supreme beingness, is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnihilarious. Ok, I made the last one up, but hey, if your omniscient, your probably going to know some pretty damn funny stories and capable of making up a few good ones as well.

If God is omnipotent, then we also must assume that God is infinite.

If God were not infinite, God would not be omnipotent, then God would not be God.

The human mind is finite. Being finite by nature, the human mind is incapable of conceiving of the infinite.

If the human mind were infinite, which it isn't, then the human mind would be God, which it isn't.

All human minds and all human concepts and beliefs are finite.

Being finite conceptions, human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed.

All human minds and human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed because being by nature finite, they cannot ever presume to contain the infinite.

God, being infinite, is not flawed.

God, being infinite, is not a human concept or belief.

Human concepts, being finite, can only describe what God is not.

All human beliefs and concepts of or about God, describe what God is not, as all human concepts and beliefs describe the finite.

A belief in God, is a belief or concept in the finite.

A belief in God therefore, is a belief or concept in what God is not.

It's amazing how you start out with the statement

I'll make a logical proposition

And then end up making one that is very illogical.

I dont agree that because our minds and thinking is finite that we cannot understand or grasp who God is. Being finite by nature the human being is incapable of being infinite but not incapable of understanding the infinity of Allah.

Not understanding in the sense that we know how and why things occur but that we understand Allah is all knowing and the just and most merciful and these attributes cannot be separate from each other when speaking of Allah and that whatever happens we submit to Allah in obedience because he is All knowing and All wise and we acknowledge his infinity. Meaning in particular that we will not know why certain things may happen or why Allah does certain things but in understanding that our finite minds are not infinite as the knowledge of Allah we are sufficient in saying Allah knows best. Coming to the understanding that our understanding is not like Allah is in actuality the understanding of Allah.

This is the Illogical part though...

Being finite conceptions, human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed.

All human minds and human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed because being by nature finite, they cannot ever presume to contain the infinite.

Okay let examine this in the reverse. so because humans are finite we are flawed fundamentally. Now by who's standard are we judging what are we using to measure, Allah being infinite? Allah created us perfect as Allah intended with the capabilities and potential as he Intended.

Now in this creation we had to be created finite. Allah can not created another Allah. the All knowing cannot create another all knowing that's impossible you cant have two God's being all knowing or all powerful there only has to be one. Some may say well this shows the limitations of Allah it shows his weakness that Allah couldn't do it. That is wrong to say this because it does not show his weakness but it in fact demonstrates how powerful Allah is. Allah is so powerful that he cannot create something more powerful or as powerful as him. Allah cannot create a rock that is to big and heavy for him to lift because if he did and he couldn't lift it he wouldn't be all powerful. This is what I mean by understanding the infiniteness of Allah we know and understand him by his attributes. Also saying that the creation of man is flawed is indirectly stating that Allah doesn't know what he's doing. That Allah the all knowing made a mistake when that is impossible given his attribute.

So you see in understanding this you would not say that humans are from the jump fundamentally flawed because we are finite and not infinite because we weren't meant to be infinite. Nothing is infinite other than Allah.

All human beliefs and concepts of or about God, describe what God is not,

No they don't. How so?

A belief in God, is a belief or concept in the finite.

A belief in God therefore, is a belief or concept in what God is not.

Not exactly t depends on what the person believes. If I believe God is a man or a monkey which are themselves finite things then my concepts will be as those things are. Because these are finite limitations put onto Allah who is infinite.

[bernee51]

I'll like to make a logical proposition, that I believe helps to clear the confusion associated with God and all the suggested arguments for and against a belief.

Clarity is always desirable over delusion, I tend to believe.

Unless of course, if god is part of the delusion.

For the sake of argument, lets presume that God, or Allah, or whatever other name you prefer to call your concept of supreme beingness, is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient…

Do you assume an extant god? If so - on what basis?

Or are you commenting on the concept of god. Even so, are not the qualities omniscience and omnipotence mutually exclusive?

The human mind is finite. Being finite by nature, the human mind is incapable of conceiving of the infinite.

On what basis do you assume the human mind to be not infinite?

Is consciousness (as opposed to the ‘human mind’) infinite?

If the human mind were infinite, which it isn't, then the human mind would be God, which it isn't.

How can you show that 1.) the mind is not infinite and 2.) the mind is not the source of god?

All human minds and all human concepts and beliefs are finite.

Please provide so evidence for this claim.

Being finite conceptions, human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed.

How are they flawed?

All human minds and human concepts and beliefs are fundamentally flawed because being by nature finite, they cannot ever presume to contain the infinite.

Is this not a circular argument?

God, being infinite, is not flawed.
God, being infinite, is not a human concept or belief.

Show that god is infinite.

Show that anything that is infinite is not flawed.

Show that god is not a human construct.

Human concepts, being finite, can only describe what God is not

All human beliefs and concepts of or about God, describe what God is not, as all human concepts and beliefs describe the finite .

Yet you claim to describe, or at least assume a description, of what god is. Is this not a human concept? Are you not human?

[tyga]

It's amazing how you start out with the statement
tyga wrote:
I'll make a logical proposition

Thank you, I think I'm quite amazing too.

And then end up making one that is very illogical.

Yes, of course it is illogical, that was the entire premise of my proposition, that all human thoughts, beliefs and concepts, are fundamentally flawed.

I personally find it relatively amusing though, that you would even attempt to debate this proposition, given the fact that anything you propose in counter argument, will be fundamentally flawed by nature.

Thanks for making the effort though.

[muhammad rasullah]

It's amazing how you start out with the statement
tyga wrote:
I'll make a logical proposition

Thank you, I think I'm quite amazing too.

And then end up making one that is very illogical.

Yes, of course it is illogical, that was the entire premise of my proposition, that all human thoughts, beliefs and concepts, are fundamentally flawed.

I personally find it relatively amusing though, that you would even attempt to debate this proposition, given the fact that anything you propose in counter argument, will be fundamentally flawed by nature.

Thanks for making the effort though.

Well I find it very amusing that you haven't responded to anything I posted. My counter argument is that we are not flawed by nature. We were created perfect as Allah intended to create us with the capabilities Allah created us with as well. To say that we are flawed because we are not infinite like Allah is false because had we been created with infinite knowledge like Allah with can't be done then Allah would not be All Knowing because there would be more than one who is All Knowing which there can't be.

It seems that my thinking is not flawed but it is in fact yours. Your failure to acknowledge the total attributes of Allah which for the sake of argument you agreed to and put forth is where the flawed portion of your argument lies.
And this is why it is illogical.
Also quoting me out of context won't work either.

[tyga]

Well I find it very amusing that you haven't responded to anything I posted.

Well, I'm very happy we are both amused, I achieved at least one positive in all this.

My counter argument is that we are not flawed by nature. We were created perfect as Allah intended to create us with the capabilities Allah created us with as well.

Of course, you can provide evidence for this presumption?

To say that we are flawed because we are not infinite like Allah is false because had we been created with infinite knowledge like Allah with can't be done then Allah would not be All Knowing because there would be more than one who is All Knowing which there can't be.

Exactly, you state what I had already stated. That God, is infinite (inherently unlimited ), humans are finite (inherently limited ).

Human limitation, does not enable humans to appreciated the unlimited. If humans could appreciate the unlimited, then humans would be God, which they are not.

All limited human concepts associated with God, are then always going to be flawed, due to their inherent limitations.

All inherently limited human concepts can only then describe the limited.

God, not being limited but instead inherently unlimited, cannot be appreciated by inherently limited human concepts.

So, If we intend to conceptualise and identify God, as an inherently limited human concept, then we are in fact not conceptualising God as inherently unlimited, but what God is not, as an inherently limited concept.

Yes, and including this concept as well.

It seems that my thinking is not flawed but it is in fact yours.

No, I suggest that what you may be experiencing, is delusion.

Your failure to acknowledge the total attributes of Allah which for the sake of argument you agreed to and put forth is where the flawed portion of your argument lies.

I know, that is what I had said. It was my entire premise.

And this is why it is illogical.

You agree and then disagree? You sir, need to go away and come back when you understand how to analyze a logical discussion, in my opinion.

Also quoting me out of context won't work either.

No, and coming to a logical debate without the ability to think logically, won't work neither, I suggest.

[muhammad rasullah]

Well I find it very amusing that you haven't responded to anything I posted.

Well, I'm very happy we are both amused, I achieved at least one positive in all this.

My counter argument is that we are not flawed by nature. We were created perfect as Allah intended to create us with the capabilities Allah created us with as well.

Of course, you can provide evidence for this presumption?

To say that we are flawed because we are not infinite like Allah is false because had we been created with infinite knowledge like Allah with can't be done then Allah would not be All Knowing because there would be more than one who is All Knowing which there can't be.

Exactly, you state what I had already stated. That God, is infinite (inherently unlimited ), humans are finite (inherently limited ).

Human limitation, does not enable humans to appreciated the unlimited. If humans could appreciate the unlimited, then humans would be God, which they are not.

All limited human concepts associated with God, are then always going to be flawed, due to their inherent limitations.

All inherently limited human concepts can only then describe the limited.

God, not being limited but instead inherently unlimited, cannot be appreciated by inherently limited human concepts.

So, If we intend to conceptualise and identify God, as an inherently limited human concept, then we are in fact not conceptualising God as inherently unlimited, but what God is not, as an inherently limited concept.

Yes, and including this concept as well.

It seems that my thinking is not flawed but it is in fact yours.

No, I suggest that what you may be experiencing, is delusion.

Your failure to acknowledge the total attributes of Allah which for the sake of argument you agreed to and put forth is where the flawed portion of your argument lies.

I know, that is what I had said. It was my entire premise.

And this is why it is illogical.

You agree and then disagree? You sir, need to go away and come back when you understand how to analyze a logical discussion, in my opinion.

Also quoting me out of context won't work either.

No, and coming to a logical debate without the ability to think logically, won't work neither, I suggest.

Please remember that you stated from the beginning that for the sake of argument we will say that God is omnipotent infinite and all those other things. Now starting from this premise if you are going to acknowledge for the sake of argument God being omnipotent then you have to acknowledge all of His attributes because he cannot be separate from them.

Second is that you are equating perfection with infinite and flawed with finite which is not and equal comparison because neither mean the same as one another. Now if you are saying that God is perfect and we are not perfect then I agree. But if you are saying that because of our imperfection we were created flawed then I disagree again. The creation of the human being is perfect, meaning his make up nothing can be added to the human being that can improve him/her. You can't add an arm or a leg or a finger or an eye that would improve the make up of the human being they way man is designed. So in this sense as far as creation man was created perfect since nothing can be added to improve his make. Unless he/she falls ill.

Exactly, you state what I had already stated. That God, is infinite (inherently unlimited ), humans are finite (inherently limited ).

You missed what I was saying completely. I said to say that we are flawed because we are not infinite like Allah is false which your argument was that we are flawed because we are not infinite. I agree humans are finite they have to be because if we were infinite then Allah wouldn't be infinite because there can't be two. There can only be one who is infinite and that is Allah.

Human limitation, does not enable humans to appreciated the unlimited.

How so?

If humans could appreciate the unlimited, then humans would be God, which they are not.

Now explain how appreciating the attributes of Allah mean that the ones who appreciate them are Allah?

All limited human concepts associated with God, are then always going to be flawed, due to their inherent limitations.

False. Because Allah has sent down messengers to tell us who he is. So our concepts of Allah are not flawed because they have been divinely revealed to the messengers who brought them.

God, not being limited but instead inherently unlimited, cannot be appreciated by inherently limited human concepts.

Is this absolute? Where is the evidence?

So, If we intend to conceptualise and identify God, as an inherently limited human concept, then we are in fact not conceptualising God as inherently unlimited, but what God is not, as an inherently limited concept.

And this is why we don't conceptualize and indentify God with human concepts like a man or statue and other things which are limited, but we only conceptualize and identify Allah with those things which are infinite. And when I say we I am only speaking of Islam.

You agree and then disagree? You sir, need to go away and come back when you understand how to analyze a logical discussion, in my opinion.

Yes I agree with your premise that Allah is omnipotent Allah is infinite and I also agree that in stating those you also have to acknowledge the rest of his attributes as well since they cannot be separate from him.

[tyga]

Please remember that you stated from the beginning that for the sake of argument we will say that God is omnipotent infinite and all those other things. Now starting from this premise if you are going to acknowledge for the sake of argument God being omnipotent then you have to acknowledge all of His attributes because he cannot be separate from them.

I said, "For the sake of argument, lets 'presume' that God, or Allah, or whatever other name you prefer to call your concept of supreme beingness, is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnihilarious."

Presume: To take for granted, assume, or suppose.

I only presumed that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnihilarious. I did not however, presume to be able to comprehend these things, how could I, I am none of these things.

Second is that you are equating perfection with infinite and flawed with finite which is not and equal comparison because neither mean the same as one another. Now if you are saying that God is perfect and we are not perfect then I agree. But if you are saying that because of our imperfection we were created flawed then I disagree again. The creation of the human being is perfect, meaning his make up nothing can be added to the human being that can improve him/her. You can\'t add an arm or a leg or a finger or an eye that would improve the make up of the human being they way man is designed. So in this sense as far as creation man was created perfect since nothing can be added to improve his make. Unless he/she falls ill.

In your opinion.

In my opinion however, I think there are many aspects to humanity that can be improved upon. I see nothing about the human animal that is perfect. Having 3 or 4 arms would be fantastic, there are many situations that would be benefit by more than two arms, and conversely, having shoulders makes sleeping terribly uncomfortable. Being able to photosynthesise would have been extremely beneficial, or being able to see in the dark, that would have been good. Actually the entire concept of being made entirely from meat? What the hells up with that? Was God sitting there working over the designs for making humans, and thought to himself, oh I know the best material for making humans, MEAT! Because then they can be vulnerable to all manner of disease, physical defects and psychological problems. Yeah that would be really awesome.

Give me a break. Do you want to take this discussion seriously, or do you want to continue being ignorant?

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]Exactly, you state what I had already stated. That God, is infinite (inherently unlimited ), humans are finite (inherently limited ).[/quote:24fc9fbe10]
>
> You missed what I was saying completely. I said to say that we are flawed because we are not infinite like Allah is false which your argument was that we are flawed because we are not infinite. I agree humans are finite they have to be because if we were infinite then Allah wouldn\'t be infinite because there can\'t be two. There can only be one who is infinite and that is Allah.

Sure, ok, suppose God is infinite. Can you supply me if any proof for this assumption? If not, then please discontinue using it as a valid argument. I'm sorry, but scripture, any scripture, is not suitable evidence. In order for scripture to be suitable evidence, you will need to supply verifiable evidence, that God authored it. If you cannot, then please discontinue using scripture as evidence for a valid argument.

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]Human limitation, does not enable humans to appreciated the unlimited. [/quote:24fc9fbe10]
> How so?

I already prosed a logical series of ideas that explains just this. If you didn't understand it, then why are you wasting my time attempting to prove it false?

How long is a piece of string? How big is your brain? How big is the universe? Can I fit the universe in your brain? Please, think about these questions logically, and then answer intelligently. If you cannot at least attempt to answer these questions logically and intelligently, then as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

>

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]If humans could appreciate the unlimited, then humans would be God, which they are not. [/quote:24fc9fbe10]
> Now explain how appreciating the attributes of Allah mean that the ones who appreciate them are Allah?

I said, "If humans could appreciate the unlimited, then humans would be God, which they are not." Which means - For humans to appreciate the infinite, humans would need to be infinite, which they are not.
>

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]All limited human concepts associated with God, are then always going to be flawed, due to their inherent limitations. [/quote:24fc9fbe10]
> False. Because Allah has sent down messengers to tell us who he is. So our concepts of Allah are not flawed because they have been divinely revealed to the messengers who brought them.

Please refer to my previous statement about providing evidence of authenticity.

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]God, not being limited but instead inherently unlimited, cannot be appreciated by inherently limited human concepts.[/quote:24fc9fbe10]
> Is this absolute? Where is the evidence?

It was a proposition remember. I had accepted the premise, for sake of argument, that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnihilarious. Funny, I distinctively remember you reminding me about this at the beginning of your reply. Why did you forget so quickly?

>

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]So, If we intend to conceptualise and identify God, as an inherently limited human concept, then we are in fact not conceptualising God as inherently unlimited, but what God is not, as an inherently limited concept.[/quote:24fc9fbe10]
> And this is why we don\'t conceptualize and indentify God with human concepts like a man or statue and other things which are limited, but we only conceptualize and identify Allah with those things which are infinite. And when I say we I am only speaking of Islam.

Well, I can only speak for myself on this subject, but Islam is most definitely not infinite, in my opinion, except maybe in ignorance, but that's another topic.

>

> [quote:24fc9fbe10=\"tyga\"]You agree and then disagree? You sir, need to go away and come back when you understand how to analyze a logical discussion, in my opinion.[/quote:24fc9fbe10]
> Yes I agree with your premise that Allah is omnipotent Allah is infinite and I also agree that in stating those you also have to acknowledge the rest of his attributes as well since they cannot be separate from him.

Concepts are separating by their very nature. They make definitions, compartmentalise and identify. They formulate, categorise and hypothesise.

If God is infinite, God is both everything and nothing, simultaneously. God then is everything, nothing, both everything and nothing, and neither everything and nothing.

Could you please formulate a concept that can accurately articulate the above sentence?

thanks.

[BirdofPrey]

It does NOT mean ‘steadily expanding’. The following ayat:

Sura 51 - Adh-Dhariyat [The Winnowing winds] Verse 47:
47. وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا ب�أَيْد� وَإ�نَّا لَم�وس�ع�ونَ

LITERALLY means:

Sura 51 - Adh-Dhariyat [The Winnowing winds] Verse 47:
47. And the sky (OR space) We built (OR constructed) it with power (OR support), and We are extending (OR spreading)

In other words, mistranslation.. purposeful. That is exactly what my link said, but was denied.

Yes, this is the same technique that the fundamental Christians used on the bible.

I'd like to know more.