Muslims worship Muhammad…

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Muslims worship Muhammad…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):
While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.


I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:
Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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carolineislands
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Post #61

Post by carolineislands »

muhammad rasullah wrote: Well unfortunately the definition you gave of worship is very limited
Why does this not surprise me? The definition I gave was from the standard English dictionary and I listed the first 6 or 7 definitions given until they went off into specific definitions of title as used in Britain such as "Your Worship" which were N/A. Of course, you don't like them because according to these definitions you DO worship Muhammad. And so...
I have given a better definition of worship here below.
You give a better definition. Better than the standard English language definition? Whose definition is it exactly, and what makes it better?
Worship-4. The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being;
Ahhh. I see what makes it better - it fits your purpose by supposing that only by paying divine honots to a "Supreme Being" are you going to consider it worship.

This really epitomizes the logic I have seen from almost ever Islam apologist I have ever heard or read. You take the conclusion you want and create evidence to fit instead of taking evidence and follow it to a logical conclusion. You have done that in almost every wild supposition you've made on this board so far and here it is again.

Honestly I really laughed when I read your post. My argument was supported by the standard English definitions of "worship" and the clearly showed that the attitudes and behaviors of Muslims fit that definition like a hand in a glove. You could not deny the evidence (as has happened with every other argument you have brought to this board) and so you changed the definition and make up one that fits your purpose.
Last edited by carolineislands on Thu May 15, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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carolineislands
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Post #62

Post by carolineislands »

McCulloch wrote:Moderator Caution
muhammad rasullah wrote:Please don't use sarcasm to promote your limited understanding of Islam.
MR is correct. Such comments are against the rules of this site. 1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed. Comments about another poster that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.

Besides, as Theo van Gogh found out, it could be dangerous to show disrespect towards Islam.
I will not accept this. My question did NOT insult anyone, nor was it a personal attack against anyone on the board. I said nothing insulting about Muhammad OR about the Quran.

This is a great lesson in the hypocrisy of Islam that has begun to permeate our thinking to the point that we don't even realize the double standard any more.

I take my Bible in the bathroom with me and read it while I'm on the pot.

Did I insult any of the people on the board? Was that a personal slur?

I not only draw pictures of Jesus, I have pictures of him already IN the Bible.

Was that a personal insult to anyone on the board? Was that an ad hominem attack?

Absolutely NOT. My question was to get to the bottom of whether or not Muslims worship Muhammad. If they don't, they clearly would not be insulted by my drawing pictures of him. If they don't worship the Quran, they wouldn't have any problem with someone reading it at any time and in any place, since its only a book.

No, I did NOT make a personal attack and I did NOT insult anyone in this forum.

The person who reacted to my post, however, DID make a personal attack on me:
muhammad rasullah wrote:Please don't use sarcasm to promote your limited understanding of Islam.
which is the same as calling me ignorant.

Just because I'm not Muslim and I'm not going to shoot people down in the street or pin death threats to their buddies with a dagger to the heart and leave them for their family to find, does not mean I should have to accept offensive words any more than they do.

We need to look at this hypocrisy and call it what it is. No religion is above question and if we can say things about other religions and their sacred texts we can say it about Islam too.

If I want to draw a cartoon of Muhammad, I will. If I want to throw the Quran in the trash I will. There is a statue of Jesus floating around in piss in an art museum - so what? Same goes for old Mo.

I won't recant. I won't submit. My question remains as is.

Is it okay for me to take the Quran in the bathroom and draw pictures of Muhammad in it while I am on the pot?

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Post #63

Post by muhammad rasullah »

carolineislands wrote:
McCulloch wrote:Moderator Caution
muhammad rasullah wrote:Please don't use sarcasm to promote your limited understanding of Islam.
MR is correct. Such comments are against the rules of this site. 1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed. Comments about another poster that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.

Besides, as Theo van Gogh found out, it could be dangerous to show disrespect towards Islam.
I will not accept this. My question did NOT insult anyone, nor was it a personal attack against anyone on the board. I said nothing insulting about Muhammad OR about the Quran.

This is a great lesson in the hypocrisy of Islam that has begun to permeate our thinking to the point that we don't even realize the double standard any more.

I take my Bible in the bathroom with me and read it while I'm on the pot.

Did I insult any of the people on the board? Was that a personal slur?

I not only draw pictures of Jesus, I have pictures of him already IN the Bible.

Was that a personal insult to anyone on the board? Was that an ad hominem attack?

Absolutely NOT. My question was to get to the bottom of whether or not Muslims worship Muhammad. If they don't, they clearly would not be insulted by my drawing pictures of him. If they don't worship the Quran, they wouldn't have any problem with someone reading it at any time and in any place, since its only a book.

No, I did NOT make a personal attack and I did NOT insult anyone in this forum.

The person who reacted to my post, however, DID make a personal attack on me:
muhammad rasullah wrote:Please don't use sarcasm to promote your limited understanding of Islam.
which is the same as calling me ignorant.

Just because I'm not Muslim and I'm not going to shoot people down in the street or pin death threats to their buddies with a dagger to the heart and leave them for their family to find, does not mean I should have to accept offensive words any more than they do.

We need to look at this hypocrisy and call it what it is. No religion is above question and if we can say things about other religions and their sacred texts we can say it about Islam too.

If I want to draw a cartoon of Muhammad, I will. If I want to throw the Quran in the trash I will. There is a statue of Jesus floating around in piss in an art museum - so what? Same goes for old Mo.

I won't recant. I won't submit. My question remains as is.

Is it okay for me to take the Quran in the bathroom and draw pictures of Muhammad in it while I am on the pot?
The overall picture is that you are asking a question which you already know the answer to. So the question is not geared towards trying to learn or understand but sarcastically and indirectly insulting Islam. Why are you asking a questions you alreadt know the answer to lets be intellectuals and not ask questions you know the answer to. Especially when it has nothing to do with the OP.

I don't think i have insulted you at all your questioning was obvioous that your understanding of islam is limited because if it wasn't then you wouldn't have asked the question. It's like asking should I bang my head on the ground if my head hurts.
Carolineislands wrote:I take my Bible in the bathroom with me and read it while I'm on the pot.
Well muslims have a little more respect for the word of Allah to read it in such an unclean place.
Carolineislands wrote:I not only draw pictures of Jesus, I have pictures of him already IN the Bible.
How can you have or draw a picture of something you've never seen. It's like me trying to tell you what the beach looks like when I've never seen it nor been there. If you believe that Jesus is God your bible tells you not to make images of God Deut 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them:
Carolineislands wrote:Absolutely NOT. My question was to get to the bottom of whether or not Muslims worship Muhammad. If they don't, they clearly would not be insulted by my drawing pictures of him. If they don't worship the Quran, they wouldn't have any problem with someone reading it at any time and in any place, since its only a book.
Again your bible tells you not to draw pictures of any living thing to worship them. For that reason that they may worship them as their God. Yet you draw pictures of something you've never seen and have a picture of it in your bible. On the other hand Muslims don't and have no picture of any man in the quran but you do. Who is holding to Gods commandments more you or the muslim? The quran is not just merely a book. It contains in it the word of God and should be treated with dignity and respect and honor and given praise to. How could you take a poop wipe you but and then pick up your bible to read. What kind of honor and respect to you show to it. Again this has nothing to do with worshipping muhammad because if you are going to claim this then every prophet was worshipped because the people that they came to followed and did what they did. Did they worship Moses as well?
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"

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Post #64

Post by muhammad rasullah »

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
muhammad rasullah wrote:Well unfortunately the definition you gave of worship is very limited
Oh puh–lease, she gave no less than 7 very well–defined explanations each backed with examples. Why not try to tackle the points at hand instead of talking about the shahadah (the only relevant part of which I have quoted in my signature).
Well the definition she gave did not entail what is being worshipped. let me explain. You see when a person worships something they only do so becausee they feel that by doing so they can get something in return or what they feel they get in return for their worship. They call on this person or whatever it may be for help and what they need or desire. Now the definitions which she gave does not address any of the things I've just mentioned that it why it is limited. Reverence means to show a deep respect to, homage means special honor or respect shown or expressed pulicly. So this is limited in defining worship because you can show homage to anyone and not worship them, and you can show reverence to someone and not worship them. I show reverence to my mother and father and I obey them but does that mean I worship them? No! So more needs to be given to explain what worship is. So I gave a more detailed one because when you invoke upon something for help or aid and you view them as a God that they can give you what you ask then this is worship and the definitions which she gave are also included. But nothing the muslim does doesn't give the slightest implication that by this definition they worship Muhammad based on the shahadah alone.

We follow what the prophet brought and his teachings but we in no shape or form worship him. 3:64 Say: "O followers of earlier revelation! Come unto that tenet which we and you hold in common: [49] that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall not ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and that we shall not take human beings for our lords beside God." [50] And if they turn away, then say: "Bear witness that it is we who have surrendered ourselves unto Him."
6:56 SAY [to the deniers of the truth]: "Behold, I have been forbidden to worship those [beings] whom you invoke instead of God." Say: "I do not follow your errant views -or else I should have gone astray, and should not be among those who have found the right path."

:59 INDEED, We sent forth Noah unto his people, [45] and he said: "O my people! worship God alone: you have no deity other than Him. Verily, I fear lest suffering befall you on an awesome Day!" [46]
7:206 Behold, those who are near unto thy Sustainer [168] are never too proud to worship Him; and they extol His limitless glory, and prostrate themselves before Him [alone].
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"

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carolineislands
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Post #65

Post by carolineislands »

muhammad rasullah wrote:The quran is not just merely a book. It contains in it the word of God and should be treated with dignity and respect and honor and given praise to.
-bold emphasis is mine.
wor·ship verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or (especially British) -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object)
6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object)
8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
www.dictionary.com

You clearly worship the Quran.

Now, lets talk about Muhammad.
Last edited by carolineislands on Fri May 16, 2008 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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carolineislands
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Post #66

Post by carolineislands »

muhammad rasullah wrote: INDEED, We sent forth Noah unto his people, [45] and he said: "O my people! worship God alone:
Wrong thread. This is a thread on NON-Christian Religions and Philosophies (see bold print at top of page).

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Post #67

Post by Truth_Teller »

I think my Christian brothers, in particular, are failing to see the fact that it all is respect, love and passion for him and we don´t worship him. I can, however, understand the difficulties they are facing in understanding this since they themselves believe a human-being as to be their God (no offense meant but I´m just trying to highlight the main reasons for their argument over it). Alright, it´s their religion but they can at least not make false allegation on a religion which is only one of the two religion of the world which teach monotheism. When our Holy Qur´an itself states not to worship him then we simply cannot. Again, it might just seem too difficult for some of you to understand.
O People! See the difference between Mullah-ism and Islam. They both are two opposite things.

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Fallibleone
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Post #68

Post by Fallibleone »

You know, there is a smattering of SISTERS on this board too.
''''What I am is good enough if I can only be it openly.''''

''''The man said "why you think you here?" I said "I got no idea".''''

''''Je viens comme un chat
Par la nuit si noire.
Tu attends, et je tombe
Dans tes ailes blanches,
Et je vole,
Et je coule
Comme une plume.''''

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carolineislands
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Post #69

Post by carolineislands »

Truth_Teller wrote:I think my Christian brothers... believe a human-being as to be their God ...it might just seem too difficult for some of you to understand.
Care to comment on the topic and evidence given such as the definition of worship in the English language and the actions of Muslims concerning Muhammad that fit this definition?

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carolineislands
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Post #70

Post by carolineislands »

Truth_Teller wrote:I think my Christian brothers... believe a human-being as to be their God (no offense meant but I´m just trying to highlight the main reasons for their argument over it
As far as I know the original poster who brought this argument to the board is NOT a Christian.

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