Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
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Burninglight
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Post #521
Burninglight
QUOTE: "lol, it is redundant to say "One monotheism." Yes, three persons in the Godhead but one God. It is not three persons like me, you and someone else. It is a wholeness and oneness of God that no man can comprehend"
ANSWER: Three different/separate entities do not make One:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When one calls upon Jesus (peace be upon him) as God you are associating partners with God. This is polytheism. Islam is a monotheistic faith. The trinity is not. Christians think that they believe in one God but they really don't.
The Trinity doctrine of the Incarnation was developed long after Jesus (peace be upon him). The belief in three divine persons is incompatible with the oneness of God. If there are three distinct and separate persons, then there must be three distinct and separate substances, for every person is inseparable from its own substances, hence three distinct Gods.
QUOTE:"Many, Muslims ascribe a partner unto Allah. I know exactly what you me by partner, association, but that is what is being done when you have to confess the name of Muhammad. You're saying I believe in his prophet, apostle slave or whatever you want to call him. It makes no difference. YOU ARE CARRYING A DOUBLE STANDARD. You have to associate his name with Allah using a conjunction "'And' his prophet Muhammad" Besides, isn't it written somewhere that "To obey Muhammad is to obey Allah?"
ANSWER: Shirk is associating partners onto Allah in WORSHIP not having Allah and Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the same sentence lol. Do we worship Muhammad (peace be upon him)?? Certainly Not! Obeying Allah is following the Quran and obeying Muhammad (peace be upon him) is following what Muhammad (peace be upon him) came with including his Sunnah and all the authentic Hadith, how is this associating partners onto God??
QUOTE: "I rest my case and the point is made and has been made. Finally, there are Muslims that see the second part of the shahadah as an association and they, although still misguided, have become Quranist only Muslims. They just don't say the second part of the shahadah, bc they don't want to commit shirk"
ANSWER: You haven't made a point at all, you have failed to even describe how we associate partners onto God, which we don't. You seem to think that if two people are in the same sentence this is shirk. Can we even call Quranists Muslim, when they reject the Sunnah?? You yourself have admitting to the Quran saying "obey Muhammad" so how then do Quaranists do so?? They don't say the second part of the shahada cause they don't believe in Muhammad's Sunnah lol.
QUOTE: "I don't have to repent of what God shows me about Deedat or anything else you say. I don't know if Deedat is in hell, but I know he was experiencing it before he died. He may have repented in His heart just before he died. Hopefully he did."
ANSWER: Has God shown you that Deedat is fuel for the fire has he?? Certainly Not! So does this mean people that experience pain due to sickness at such an old age for what ever reason we experience Hell?? Certainly Not! You committed Blasphemy Burninglight he he. I would be very regretful if I were you.
QUOTE: "Muhammad and Allah confirm that Jesus is "the word of Allah (God)" Therefore, He is eternal and not created even as Allah's word is eternal and uncreated, and you will face Him (The word made flesh) soon and account for why you neglected His direction. If you don't repent, He will ask why didn't you listen to my witness on youtube? and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
ANSWER: Confirming that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with Allah's words does not mean he is God's son and savior. All of the Messengers came with Allah's words that's what they do, speak the words of God. I will face my Lord knowing I have tried my upmost best in following His commandments and final Revelation (Quran) and the seal of the Prophets Muhammad (peace be upon him).
QUOTE: "Quran 3:7 tells you that those who have deviated from truth will use the verse that states Jesus is the word of God to trouble you, also that the verse is unclear and Allah knows its meaning, but I know better about that verse. Quran 3: 7 is like the Wizard of Oz who said to Dorothy, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." That man was Muhammad."
ANSWER: This is the meaning of the verse, Quran 3:7:
Allah states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allah said,
"They are the foundations of the Book" - meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted,
"And others not entirely clear" - as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.
The Muhkamat are the Ayat that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented. As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.
Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar commented on,
"In it are verses that are entirely clear" - as "Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.'' He also said, "As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allah to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.''
Therefore, Allah said,
"So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation" - meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood,
"they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof" - meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings. As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allah said,
"seeking Al-Fitnah" - meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an - the Mutashabih of it - but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that Isa (Jesus) is divine because the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements,
"He Isa (Jesus) was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him." (43:59) and,
"Verily, the likeness of Isa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was." (3:59)
There are other Ayat that clearly assert that Isa (Jesus) is but one of Allah's creatures and that he is the servant and Messenger of Allah, among other Messengers.
Allah's statement,
"And seeking for its Ta'wil" - to alter them as they desire. Imam Ahmad recorded that A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah recited,
"It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear," until,
"Men of understanding" and he said,
"When you see those who argue in it (using the Mutashabihat), then they are those whom Allah meant. Therefore, beware of them.''
Al-Bukhari recorded a similar Hadith in the Tafsir of this Ayah 3:7, as did Muslim in the book of Qadar (the Divine Will) in his Sahih, and Abu Dawud in the Sunnah section of his Sunan, from A'ishah; "The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah,
"It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear", until,
"And none receive admonition except men of understanding."
He then said,
"When you see those who follow what is not so clear of the Qur'an, then they are those whom Allah described, so beware of them."
This is the wording recorded by Al-Bukhari
Allah said,
"But none knows its Ta'wil except Allah."
Similarly, as preceded in what has been reported from Ibn Abbas, "Tafsir is of four types: Tafsir that the Arabs know in their language; Tafsir that no one is excused of being ignorant of; Tafsir that the scholars know; and Tafsir that only Allah knows.'' Scholars of Qur'an recitation have different opinions about pausing at Allah's Name in this Ayah. This stop was reported from A'ishah, Urwah, Abu Ash-Shatha' and Abu Nahik.
Some pause after reciting,
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" saying that the Qur'an does not address the people with what they cannot understand. Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that Ibn Abbas said, "I am among those who are firmly grounded in its Ta'wil interpretation.'' The Messenger of Allah supplicated for the benefit of Ibn Abbas,
"O Allah! Bestow on him knowledge in the religion and teach him the Ta'wil (interpretation)."
Ta'wil has two meanings in the Qur'an, the true reality of things, and what they will turn out to be. For instance, Allah said,
"And he said: "O my father! This is the Ta'wil of my dream aforetime!''. 12:100, and,
"Await they just for it's Ta'wil On the Day (Day of Resurrection) it's Ta'wil is finally fulfillled." (7:53) refers to the true reality of Resurrection that they were told about. If this is the meaning desired in the Ayah above 3:7, then pausing after reciting Allah's Name is warranted, because only Allah knows the true reality of things. In this case, Allah's statement,
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is connected to His statement,
"say: "We believe in it''" If the word Ta'wil means the second meaning, that is, explaining and describing, such as what Allah said,
(They said): "Inform us of the Ta'wil of this''- meaning its explanation, then pausing after reciting,
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is warranted. This is because the scholars have general knowledge in, and understand what they were addressed with, even though they do not have knowledge of the true reality of things. Therefore, Allah's statement,
"say: "We believe in it''" describes the conduct of the scholars. Similarly, Allah said,
"And your Lord comes, and the angels, in rows." (89:22) means, your Lord will come, and the angels will come in rows.
Allah's statement that the knowledgeable people proclaim,
"We believe in it" - means, they believe in the Mutashabih.
"all of it is from our Lord" - meaning, both the Muhkam and the Mutashabih are true and authentic, and each one of them testifies to the truth of the other. This is because they both are from Allah and nothing that comes from Allah is ever met by contradiction or discrepancy. Allah said,
"Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction." (4:82)
Allah said in his Ayah 3:7
"And none receive admonition except men of understanding." - meaning, those who have good minds and sound comprehension, understand, contemplate and comprehend the meaning in the correct manner. Further, Ibn Al-Mundhir recorded in his Tafsir that Nafi bin Yazid said, "Those firmly grounded in knowledge are those who are modest for Allah's sake, humbly seek His pleasure, and do not exaggerate regarding those above them, or belittle those below them.''
(Tafsir Ibn Kathir)
QUOTE: "Muslims get on our case about believing Jesus is deity, but they cannot tell us what Jesus being the word means or that Jesus is not deity, because Allah knows He is. He is just deceiving you like he did to billions by tricking, plotting and scheming people into believing Jesus died when he didn't. But Allah's subtly of deception was missed by all Muslims. His great and BEST deception is that he wanted you to believe Jesus didn't die so you could have a Christless eternity away from the one and only true God who loves you."
ANSWER: You seem to be complicating the most simple of things:
1) Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the words of God, this was the original Injeel (Gospel).
2) Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God
3) As Muslims we do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross.
4) We worship God not Jesus (peace be upon him) as he was a Messenger like all other Messengers that came to pass.
It is very simple Burninglight lol.
QUOTE: "Ro. 10: 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
ANSWER: These words are the words of Paul NOT the words of Jesus (peace be upon him). Lord means Master or Sir in the Greek language. In addition, other individuals in the Old Testament are called Lord. This evidence is not by Jesus (peace be upon him) but from others. At least if want to be honest, you need to quote the words of Jesus (peace be upon him) and what he says concerning the meaning of the word Lord not by others. Lol
QUOTE: "lol, it is redundant to say "One monotheism." Yes, three persons in the Godhead but one God. It is not three persons like me, you and someone else. It is a wholeness and oneness of God that no man can comprehend"
ANSWER: Three different/separate entities do not make One:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When one calls upon Jesus (peace be upon him) as God you are associating partners with God. This is polytheism. Islam is a monotheistic faith. The trinity is not. Christians think that they believe in one God but they really don't.
The Trinity doctrine of the Incarnation was developed long after Jesus (peace be upon him). The belief in three divine persons is incompatible with the oneness of God. If there are three distinct and separate persons, then there must be three distinct and separate substances, for every person is inseparable from its own substances, hence three distinct Gods.
QUOTE:"Many, Muslims ascribe a partner unto Allah. I know exactly what you me by partner, association, but that is what is being done when you have to confess the name of Muhammad. You're saying I believe in his prophet, apostle slave or whatever you want to call him. It makes no difference. YOU ARE CARRYING A DOUBLE STANDARD. You have to associate his name with Allah using a conjunction "'And' his prophet Muhammad" Besides, isn't it written somewhere that "To obey Muhammad is to obey Allah?"
ANSWER: Shirk is associating partners onto Allah in WORSHIP not having Allah and Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the same sentence lol. Do we worship Muhammad (peace be upon him)?? Certainly Not! Obeying Allah is following the Quran and obeying Muhammad (peace be upon him) is following what Muhammad (peace be upon him) came with including his Sunnah and all the authentic Hadith, how is this associating partners onto God??
QUOTE: "I rest my case and the point is made and has been made. Finally, there are Muslims that see the second part of the shahadah as an association and they, although still misguided, have become Quranist only Muslims. They just don't say the second part of the shahadah, bc they don't want to commit shirk"
ANSWER: You haven't made a point at all, you have failed to even describe how we associate partners onto God, which we don't. You seem to think that if two people are in the same sentence this is shirk. Can we even call Quranists Muslim, when they reject the Sunnah?? You yourself have admitting to the Quran saying "obey Muhammad" so how then do Quaranists do so?? They don't say the second part of the shahada cause they don't believe in Muhammad's Sunnah lol.
QUOTE: "I don't have to repent of what God shows me about Deedat or anything else you say. I don't know if Deedat is in hell, but I know he was experiencing it before he died. He may have repented in His heart just before he died. Hopefully he did."
ANSWER: Has God shown you that Deedat is fuel for the fire has he?? Certainly Not! So does this mean people that experience pain due to sickness at such an old age for what ever reason we experience Hell?? Certainly Not! You committed Blasphemy Burninglight he he. I would be very regretful if I were you.
QUOTE: "Muhammad and Allah confirm that Jesus is "the word of Allah (God)" Therefore, He is eternal and not created even as Allah's word is eternal and uncreated, and you will face Him (The word made flesh) soon and account for why you neglected His direction. If you don't repent, He will ask why didn't you listen to my witness on youtube? and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
ANSWER: Confirming that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with Allah's words does not mean he is God's son and savior. All of the Messengers came with Allah's words that's what they do, speak the words of God. I will face my Lord knowing I have tried my upmost best in following His commandments and final Revelation (Quran) and the seal of the Prophets Muhammad (peace be upon him).
QUOTE: "Quran 3:7 tells you that those who have deviated from truth will use the verse that states Jesus is the word of God to trouble you, also that the verse is unclear and Allah knows its meaning, but I know better about that verse. Quran 3: 7 is like the Wizard of Oz who said to Dorothy, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." That man was Muhammad."
ANSWER: This is the meaning of the verse, Quran 3:7:
Allah states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allah said,
"They are the foundations of the Book" - meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted,
"And others not entirely clear" - as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.
The Muhkamat are the Ayat that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented. As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.
Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar commented on,
"In it are verses that are entirely clear" - as "Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.'' He also said, "As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allah to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.''
Therefore, Allah said,
"So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation" - meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood,
"they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof" - meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings. As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allah said,
"seeking Al-Fitnah" - meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an - the Mutashabih of it - but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that Isa (Jesus) is divine because the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements,
"He Isa (Jesus) was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him." (43:59) and,
"Verily, the likeness of Isa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was." (3:59)
There are other Ayat that clearly assert that Isa (Jesus) is but one of Allah's creatures and that he is the servant and Messenger of Allah, among other Messengers.
Allah's statement,
"And seeking for its Ta'wil" - to alter them as they desire. Imam Ahmad recorded that A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah recited,
"It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear," until,
"Men of understanding" and he said,
"When you see those who argue in it (using the Mutashabihat), then they are those whom Allah meant. Therefore, beware of them.''
Al-Bukhari recorded a similar Hadith in the Tafsir of this Ayah 3:7, as did Muslim in the book of Qadar (the Divine Will) in his Sahih, and Abu Dawud in the Sunnah section of his Sunan, from A'ishah; "The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah,
"It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear", until,
"And none receive admonition except men of understanding."
He then said,
"When you see those who follow what is not so clear of the Qur'an, then they are those whom Allah described, so beware of them."
This is the wording recorded by Al-Bukhari
Allah said,
"But none knows its Ta'wil except Allah."
Similarly, as preceded in what has been reported from Ibn Abbas, "Tafsir is of four types: Tafsir that the Arabs know in their language; Tafsir that no one is excused of being ignorant of; Tafsir that the scholars know; and Tafsir that only Allah knows.'' Scholars of Qur'an recitation have different opinions about pausing at Allah's Name in this Ayah. This stop was reported from A'ishah, Urwah, Abu Ash-Shatha' and Abu Nahik.
Some pause after reciting,
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" saying that the Qur'an does not address the people with what they cannot understand. Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that Ibn Abbas said, "I am among those who are firmly grounded in its Ta'wil interpretation.'' The Messenger of Allah supplicated for the benefit of Ibn Abbas,
"O Allah! Bestow on him knowledge in the religion and teach him the Ta'wil (interpretation)."
Ta'wil has two meanings in the Qur'an, the true reality of things, and what they will turn out to be. For instance, Allah said,
"And he said: "O my father! This is the Ta'wil of my dream aforetime!''. 12:100, and,
"Await they just for it's Ta'wil On the Day (Day of Resurrection) it's Ta'wil is finally fulfillled." (7:53) refers to the true reality of Resurrection that they were told about. If this is the meaning desired in the Ayah above 3:7, then pausing after reciting Allah's Name is warranted, because only Allah knows the true reality of things. In this case, Allah's statement,
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is connected to His statement,
"say: "We believe in it''" If the word Ta'wil means the second meaning, that is, explaining and describing, such as what Allah said,
(They said): "Inform us of the Ta'wil of this''- meaning its explanation, then pausing after reciting,
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is warranted. This is because the scholars have general knowledge in, and understand what they were addressed with, even though they do not have knowledge of the true reality of things. Therefore, Allah's statement,
"say: "We believe in it''" describes the conduct of the scholars. Similarly, Allah said,
"And your Lord comes, and the angels, in rows." (89:22) means, your Lord will come, and the angels will come in rows.
Allah's statement that the knowledgeable people proclaim,
"We believe in it" - means, they believe in the Mutashabih.
"all of it is from our Lord" - meaning, both the Muhkam and the Mutashabih are true and authentic, and each one of them testifies to the truth of the other. This is because they both are from Allah and nothing that comes from Allah is ever met by contradiction or discrepancy. Allah said,
"Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction." (4:82)
Allah said in his Ayah 3:7
"And none receive admonition except men of understanding." - meaning, those who have good minds and sound comprehension, understand, contemplate and comprehend the meaning in the correct manner. Further, Ibn Al-Mundhir recorded in his Tafsir that Nafi bin Yazid said, "Those firmly grounded in knowledge are those who are modest for Allah's sake, humbly seek His pleasure, and do not exaggerate regarding those above them, or belittle those below them.''
(Tafsir Ibn Kathir)
QUOTE: "Muslims get on our case about believing Jesus is deity, but they cannot tell us what Jesus being the word means or that Jesus is not deity, because Allah knows He is. He is just deceiving you like he did to billions by tricking, plotting and scheming people into believing Jesus died when he didn't. But Allah's subtly of deception was missed by all Muslims. His great and BEST deception is that he wanted you to believe Jesus didn't die so you could have a Christless eternity away from the one and only true God who loves you."
ANSWER: You seem to be complicating the most simple of things:
1) Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the words of God, this was the original Injeel (Gospel).
2) Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God
3) As Muslims we do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross.
4) We worship God not Jesus (peace be upon him) as he was a Messenger like all other Messengers that came to pass.
It is very simple Burninglight lol.
QUOTE: "Ro. 10: 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
ANSWER: These words are the words of Paul NOT the words of Jesus (peace be upon him). Lord means Master or Sir in the Greek language. In addition, other individuals in the Old Testament are called Lord. This evidence is not by Jesus (peace be upon him) but from others. At least if want to be honest, you need to quote the words of Jesus (peace be upon him) and what he says concerning the meaning of the word Lord not by others. Lol
-
Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
The Word of God
Post #522You accuse me of blasphemy and laugh?Burninglight wrote:It makes prefect sense and it is clear as crystal. When Allah deceives it is not deception; when he prays it is not prayer. When Allah sends down his spirit apart from himself, it is not his partner, and when Muslim recite the shahadah, saying "...and Muhammad is his apostle" that is not an association with Allah. It all makes perfect sense lolHaLi8993 wrote: Burninlight
QUOTE: "The video breaks down the Arabic word so you can understand that the Arabic says Allah prayed with the angels for Muhammad. It proves this is true, but you are closing you eyes saying in essence "Nice try, Thanks but no thanks. Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" This is what you are saying so there is no way to prove a point to you. That is why I said Islam's best friend is ignorance and deception; its enemy is truth and knowledge!
An Arabic translator is on that show with them. They have Muslim callers that address issues. It is not 2 hours, and it explains what I said toward the end. So don't ask or tell me "you are kidding right?" or must be joking when I am very serious!!!
PBUY and may you come to the knowledge of truth!"
ANSWER: Burninglight I wouldn't need to watch the video to know it is not true, cause this argument is not something new. These are not facts at all, yes my mind is made up cause the falsehood is very clear. If you want to prove a point to me it needs to be free from lies and deception. Seeing as you have insisted to continue with this topic let me show you it is incorrect.
The misguided people that have no knowledge claim that Allah prays and they use the following verse along with others to suggest such a thing:
33.43
"He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers."
Such people claim that the translations are wrongly translated putting the word blessing rather than putting the word praying or prayer, since in Arabic the text says salawatun, yusallee and yusalloona which mean praying in Arabic not blessing, while blessing in Arabic is called baraka.
Hence from this they conclude that Allah prays, and the translations are wrong, and they ask the Muslim's who does Allah pray to?
Such people need to do their homework if they had only consulted the tafsir this argument would be easily refuted.
So to refute this claim one must only look at the tafsir of Ibn Kathir in regards to Surah 33:56 which will refute the entire argument:
The Meaning of Salah
Allah's Salah means that He praises His servant before the angels, as Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Al-Aliyah. This was recorded by Abu Jafar Ar-Razi from Ar-Rabi bin Anas from Anas. Others said: "Allah's Salah means mercy.'' It may be said that there is no contradiction between these two views. And Allah knows best. Salah from the angels means their supplication and seeking forgiveness for people, as Allah says:
QURAN: 40:7-9
"Those who bear the Throne and those around it glorify the praises of their Lord, and believe in Him, and ask forgiveness for those who believe (saying): "Our Lord! You comprehend all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your way, and save them from the torment of the blazing Fire! Our Lord! And make them enter the Adn Garden which you have promised them -- and to the righteous among their fathers, their wives, and their offspring! Verily, You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. And save them from the sins"
"that He may bring you out from darkness into light" - means, by means of His mercy towards you, His praise of you and the supplication of His angels for you, He brings you forth from the darkness of ignorance and misguidance into the light of guidance and certain faith.
Therefore Allah's Salah (prayer) does not mean prayer, rather it is him praising his servants before the angels, and also sending down his mercy upon them. So the translations are not wrong in putting the word blessing, because if Allah praises you among his angels and sends his mercy down to you than that is indeed a blessing. Now some might say but doesnt Salah mean praying? Yes, it does, however so, when the term is applied to God the term does not mean prayer rather it means sending mercy and praising, when the term is applied on a normal human, it refers to prayer, but not when refered to Allah
One Sheikh even writes:
This is well known among the scholars, but the correct view is something different, because blessing (salaah) is more specific than mercy. Hence the Muslims are unanimously agreed that it is permissible to pray for mercy for every believer, but they differed as to whether we may pray for blessings (using this specific word of salaah or salli ala) for anyone other than the Prophets. If the word salaah here is taken to mean mercy, then there is no difference between them, and just as we pray for mercy for a person we may send blessings upon them.
Moreover it becomes crystal clear that Allah does not pray, and that the haters of Islam intentionally distort the meaning of Allah's Salah lying to the Muslims claiming it means praying, when in fact the term Salah when used for Allah does not mean praying rather it means sending down mercy and praising his servant.
I think this question needs to be directed at the Christians as they have no good response when asked why their god Jesus prayed, and why God would need to pray. Lol
Jesus' talked to his father because He had a relationship with him before the worlds were created, and prayed to teach us how to do it.
Okay, I understand. When Allah prays (Salah) it is not prayer or him praying; it is him praising Muhammad, and him praising isn't a form of worship and prayer too. But Allah doesn't pray for or praise Muhammad when he does salah. So salah means blessing when referring to what Allah does, and when Allah deceives, his deceptions are not lies and schemes; it mean planning. The Quran says Jesus is the word of Allah (God), that doesn't mean Jesus is God's word; it means Jesus came with the word of God. When Muslims associate the name of Muhammad with Allah to be Muslim, that is not an association. Yea, right, sure - I get it. LOL
I didn't say Jesus came with Allah's word, you did. I said even the Quran says that Jesus is "the word of Allah (God)" There is a huge difference between being the word (Jesus) and coming with the word of God. There is a huge difference between being a messenger and being the message. I guess you are having trouble accepting these facts.
Sometimes the Quran comes out with truths that expose it for its discrepancies. Jesus being the word of God means He is eternal and uncreated, because God's word is eternal and uncreated. If God's word is not eternal and uncreated then Jesus isn't as well, but He is, and the Bible confirms it, and so does the Quran. Wow, slam dunk!!!
Even the Quran states that "Had Allah wanted a son he could have taken one..." Of course there is a connection between God's word and God the father. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence. That is why the Bible states that "all things were made for Him (Jesus) by Him and through Him" THE WORD OF GOD (Jesus) created all things seed and not seen that included you deary. There was nothing made that wasn't made by Him and all things are held together by the word of His power. God esteems His word above all His name. I speak truth (Jesus) to you and for this reason you hate my message, because the truth is not in your message.
Heb 2 >>> For this reason we must pay much closer attention to [a]what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c] penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various [e]miracles and by [f] gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
PBUY
Post #523
Burninglight
QUOTE: "You accuse me of blasphemy and laugh?
Okay, I understand. When Allah prays (Salah) it is not prayer or him praying; it is him praising Muhammad, and him praising isn't a form of worship and prayer too. But Allah doesn't pray for or praise Muhammad when he does salah. So salah means blessing when referring to what Allah does, and when Allah deceives, his deceptions are not lies and schemes; it mean planning. The Quran says Jesus is the word of Allah (God), that doesn't mean Jesus is God's word; it means Jesus came with the word of God. When Muslims associate the name of Muhammad with Allah to be Muslim, that is not an association. Yea, right, sure - I get it. LOL"
ANSWER: Yes, your denial of blasphemy is funny.
Your almost there, but you still tend to believe that God is like a human He is far above this. Which verse are you talking about exactly that states "Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word of Allah" in the Quran?? You still haven't explained how the shahada is an association with God as an act of worship constituting to shirk. We are discussing worship not joining sentences together lol.
Burninglight your own scriptures are a witness against you, God is not like a man, basically what that means is that God does not share the same characteristics as us humans do in general. Therefore your own scripture establishes that God is not like a man, that he is different than us, in the way he acts and does things.
To suggest that God is like a man would be contradictory to the OT as it says God is not like a man, meaning God does not eat, does not sleep, nor does he die. The fact That Jesus (peace be upon him) became like a man (not became a man), proves he cannot be God since the God is not like a man and never will be, he is far above what people ascribe to Him:
Num 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
QUOTE: "I didn't say Jesus came with Allah's word, you did. I said even the Quran says that Jesus is "the word of Allah (God)" There is a huge difference between being the word (Jesus) and coming with the word of God. There is a huge difference between being a messenger and being the message. I guess you are having trouble accepting these facts."
ANSWER: So you are denying that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with God's words?? Yes Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God. Yes your correct there is a huge difference in these things , however your going to have to prove that God commanded the belief of such things, otherwise the acceptance of such beliefs will not be accepted.
QUOTE: "Sometimes the Quran comes out with truths that expose it for its discrepancies. Jesus being the word of God means He is eternal and uncreated, because God's word is eternal and uncreated. If God's word is not eternal and uncreated then Jesus isn't as well, but He is, and the Bible confirms it, and so does the Quran. Wow, slam dunk!!!"
ANSWER: You have failed to show me any of these discrepancies, Jesus (peace be upon him) was no other than a Messenger of God, a human not God in a human. He ate, slept, wept, walked and had physical attributes like that of all humans on earth. If you want to believe that God is three (trinity concept) that's completely up to you, however there is absolutely no evidence for this.
QUOTE: "Even the Quran states that "Had Allah wanted a son he could have taken one..." Of course there is a connection between God's word and God the father. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence. That is why the Bible states that "all things were made for Him (Jesus) by Him and through Him" THE WORD OF GOD (Jesus) created all things seed and not seen that included you deary. There was nothing made that wasn't made by Him and all things are held together by the word of His power. God esteems His word above all His name. I speak truth (Jesus) to you and for this reason you hate my message, because the truth is not in your message"
ANSWER: It is very clear that Allah has not taken a son. Jesus (peace be upon him) never proclaimed he was God. As for Colossians, these are the words of Paul, a man we cannot trust at all not the words of God.There are a few inconsistencies with this, how were all things created through or by Jesus (peace be upon him) when Jesus (peace be upon him) couldnt create anything of his own while on earth. How were all things created for Jesus (peace be upon him) when Jesus (peace be upon him) is a servant to another person?
Furthermore how is it possible that Jesus (peace be upon him) can be the exact representation of the Father when Jesus (peace be upon him) is given everything and the Father isnt? Jesus (peace be upon him) is not All-Knowing and God is? If Jesus (peace be upon him) is the exact representative of God, then this would imply that the Christian god is not All-Knowing since Jesus (peace be upon him) was not All-Knowing.
You are speaking the words of Paul, the Quran speaks the words of God. Lol
QUOTE: "Heb 2 >>> For this reason we must pay much closer attention to [a]what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c] penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various [e]miracles and by [f] gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will"
ANSWER: what are you trying to say with this verse???
QUOTE: "You accuse me of blasphemy and laugh?
Okay, I understand. When Allah prays (Salah) it is not prayer or him praying; it is him praising Muhammad, and him praising isn't a form of worship and prayer too. But Allah doesn't pray for or praise Muhammad when he does salah. So salah means blessing when referring to what Allah does, and when Allah deceives, his deceptions are not lies and schemes; it mean planning. The Quran says Jesus is the word of Allah (God), that doesn't mean Jesus is God's word; it means Jesus came with the word of God. When Muslims associate the name of Muhammad with Allah to be Muslim, that is not an association. Yea, right, sure - I get it. LOL"
ANSWER: Yes, your denial of blasphemy is funny.
Your almost there, but you still tend to believe that God is like a human He is far above this. Which verse are you talking about exactly that states "Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word of Allah" in the Quran?? You still haven't explained how the shahada is an association with God as an act of worship constituting to shirk. We are discussing worship not joining sentences together lol.
Burninglight your own scriptures are a witness against you, God is not like a man, basically what that means is that God does not share the same characteristics as us humans do in general. Therefore your own scripture establishes that God is not like a man, that he is different than us, in the way he acts and does things.
To suggest that God is like a man would be contradictory to the OT as it says God is not like a man, meaning God does not eat, does not sleep, nor does he die. The fact That Jesus (peace be upon him) became like a man (not became a man), proves he cannot be God since the God is not like a man and never will be, he is far above what people ascribe to Him:
Num 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
QUOTE: "I didn't say Jesus came with Allah's word, you did. I said even the Quran says that Jesus is "the word of Allah (God)" There is a huge difference between being the word (Jesus) and coming with the word of God. There is a huge difference between being a messenger and being the message. I guess you are having trouble accepting these facts."
ANSWER: So you are denying that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with God's words?? Yes Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God. Yes your correct there is a huge difference in these things , however your going to have to prove that God commanded the belief of such things, otherwise the acceptance of such beliefs will not be accepted.
QUOTE: "Sometimes the Quran comes out with truths that expose it for its discrepancies. Jesus being the word of God means He is eternal and uncreated, because God's word is eternal and uncreated. If God's word is not eternal and uncreated then Jesus isn't as well, but He is, and the Bible confirms it, and so does the Quran. Wow, slam dunk!!!"
ANSWER: You have failed to show me any of these discrepancies, Jesus (peace be upon him) was no other than a Messenger of God, a human not God in a human. He ate, slept, wept, walked and had physical attributes like that of all humans on earth. If you want to believe that God is three (trinity concept) that's completely up to you, however there is absolutely no evidence for this.
QUOTE: "Even the Quran states that "Had Allah wanted a son he could have taken one..." Of course there is a connection between God's word and God the father. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence. That is why the Bible states that "all things were made for Him (Jesus) by Him and through Him" THE WORD OF GOD (Jesus) created all things seed and not seen that included you deary. There was nothing made that wasn't made by Him and all things are held together by the word of His power. God esteems His word above all His name. I speak truth (Jesus) to you and for this reason you hate my message, because the truth is not in your message"
ANSWER: It is very clear that Allah has not taken a son. Jesus (peace be upon him) never proclaimed he was God. As for Colossians, these are the words of Paul, a man we cannot trust at all not the words of God.There are a few inconsistencies with this, how were all things created through or by Jesus (peace be upon him) when Jesus (peace be upon him) couldnt create anything of his own while on earth. How were all things created for Jesus (peace be upon him) when Jesus (peace be upon him) is a servant to another person?
Furthermore how is it possible that Jesus (peace be upon him) can be the exact representation of the Father when Jesus (peace be upon him) is given everything and the Father isnt? Jesus (peace be upon him) is not All-Knowing and God is? If Jesus (peace be upon him) is the exact representative of God, then this would imply that the Christian god is not All-Knowing since Jesus (peace be upon him) was not All-Knowing.
You are speaking the words of Paul, the Quran speaks the words of God. Lol
QUOTE: "Heb 2 >>> For this reason we must pay much closer attention to [a]what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c] penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various [e]miracles and by [f] gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will"
ANSWER: what are you trying to say with this verse???
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #524
So I have to tell you were it states that Jesus is the word of Allah? You don't know where it states that? The verse in Heb. 2 is self explanatory. The Quran speaks the words of Muhammad; Paul speaks the will of God concerning us. PBUY Good nightHaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "You accuse me of blasphemy and laugh?
Okay, I understand. When Allah prays (Salah) it is not prayer or him praying; it is him praising Muhammad, and him praising isn't a form of worship and prayer too. But Allah doesn't pray for or praise Muhammad when he does salah. So salah means blessing when referring to what Allah does, and when Allah deceives, his deceptions are not lies and schemes; it mean planning. The Quran says Jesus is the word of Allah (God), that doesn't mean Jesus is God's word; it means Jesus came with the word of God. When Muslims associate the name of Muhammad with Allah to be Muslim, that is not an association. Yea, right, sure - I get it. LOL"
ANSWER: Yes, your denial of blasphemy is funny.
Your almost there, but you still tend to believe that God is like a human He is far above this. Which verse are you talking about exactly that states "Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word of Allah" in the Quran?? You still haven't explained how the shahada is an association with God as an act of worship constituting to shirk. We are discussing worship not joining sentences together lol.
Burninglight your own scriptures are a witness against you, God is not like a man, basically what that means is that God does not share the same characteristics as us humans do in general. Therefore your own scripture establishes that God is not like a man, that he is different than us, in the way he acts and does things.
To suggest that God is like a man would be contradictory to the OT as it says God is not like a man, meaning God does not eat, does not sleep, nor does he die. The fact That Jesus (peace be upon him) became like a man (not became a man), proves he cannot be God since the God is not like a man and never will be, he is far above what people ascribe to Him:
Num 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
QUOTE: "I didn't say Jesus came with Allah's word, you did. I said even the Quran says that Jesus is "the word of Allah (God)" There is a huge difference between being the word (Jesus) and coming with the word of God. There is a huge difference between being a messenger and being the message. I guess you are having trouble accepting these facts."
ANSWER: So you are denying that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with God's words?? Yes Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God. Yes your correct there is a huge difference in these things , however your going to have to prove that God commanded the belief of such things, otherwise the acceptance of such beliefs will not be accepted.
QUOTE: "Sometimes the Quran comes out with truths that expose it for its discrepancies. Jesus being the word of God means He is eternal and uncreated, because God's word is eternal and uncreated. If God's word is not eternal and uncreated then Jesus isn't as well, but He is, and the Bible confirms it, and so does the Quran. Wow, slam dunk!!!"
ANSWER: You have failed to show me any of these discrepancies, Jesus (peace be upon him) was no other than a Messenger of God, a human not God in a human. He ate, slept, wept, walked and had physical attributes like that of all humans on earth. If you want to believe that God is three (trinity concept) that's completely up to you, however there is absolutely no evidence for this.
QUOTE: "Even the Quran states that "Had Allah wanted a son he could have taken one..." Of course there is a connection between God's word and God the father. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence. That is why the Bible states that "all things were made for Him (Jesus) by Him and through Him" THE WORD OF GOD (Jesus) created all things seed and not seen that included you deary. There was nothing made that wasn't made by Him and all things are held together by the word of His power. God esteems His word above all His name. I speak truth (Jesus) to you and for this reason you hate my message, because the truth is not in your message"
ANSWER: It is very clear that Allah has not taken a son. Jesus (peace be upon him) never proclaimed he was God. As for Colossians, these are the words of Paul, a man we cannot trust at all not the words of God.There are a few inconsistencies with this, how were all things created through or by Jesus (peace be upon him) when Jesus (peace be upon him) couldnt create anything of his own while on earth. How were all things created for Jesus (peace be upon him) when Jesus (peace be upon him) is a servant to another person?
Furthermore how is it possible that Jesus (peace be upon him) can be the exact representation of the Father when Jesus (peace be upon him) is given everything and the Father isnt? Jesus (peace be upon him) is not All-Knowing and God is? If Jesus (peace be upon him) is the exact representative of God, then this would imply that the Christian god is not All-Knowing since Jesus (peace be upon him) was not All-Knowing.
You are speaking the words of Paul, the Quran speaks the words of God. Lol
QUOTE: "Heb 2 >>> For this reason we must pay much closer attention to [a]what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c] penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various [e]miracles and by [f] gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will"
ANSWER: what are you trying to say with this verse???
Post #525
Burninglight
QUOTE: "So I have to tell you were it states that Jesus is the word of Allah? You don't know where it states that? The verse in Heb. 2 is self explanatory. The Quran speaks the words of Muhammad; Paul speaks the will of God concerning us. PBUY Good night"
ANSWER: Of course you do, and you have to also explain that the Quranic verse in question means Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word, hence according to you God.
If Hebrews 2:1-4 is meant to suggest that God has given his final revelation through his Son which communicated this final message through to men. Then this is false cause Jesus (peace be upon him) was no more than a Prophet just like the rest of the Prophets that God appointed to convey His Message.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to a group of people just like previous Prophets were:
Matthew 15:24:
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Furthermore there are many verses in the bible that acknowledges that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent and that he did not send himself. So my next question is does God need someone to send him? If Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed God he would have sent himself, not let someone send him. If Jesus (peace be upon him) was divine before he was sent to earth as believed by Christians, then why can't a Devine Jesus (peace be upon him) send himself into this world since he had the power to do so?? Maybe because Jesus (peace be upon him) is just a man, and cannot send himself because he is not God. Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent because he is a prophet, like all prophets he was sent by God.
Luke 10:16:
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
John 5:24:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
Nope wrong again, Paul rejected the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and added his own interpretations to the bible. The Quran is the ultimate word of God.
QUOTE: "So I have to tell you were it states that Jesus is the word of Allah? You don't know where it states that? The verse in Heb. 2 is self explanatory. The Quran speaks the words of Muhammad; Paul speaks the will of God concerning us. PBUY Good night"
ANSWER: Of course you do, and you have to also explain that the Quranic verse in question means Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word, hence according to you God.
If Hebrews 2:1-4 is meant to suggest that God has given his final revelation through his Son which communicated this final message through to men. Then this is false cause Jesus (peace be upon him) was no more than a Prophet just like the rest of the Prophets that God appointed to convey His Message.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to a group of people just like previous Prophets were:
Matthew 15:24:
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Furthermore there are many verses in the bible that acknowledges that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent and that he did not send himself. So my next question is does God need someone to send him? If Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed God he would have sent himself, not let someone send him. If Jesus (peace be upon him) was divine before he was sent to earth as believed by Christians, then why can't a Devine Jesus (peace be upon him) send himself into this world since he had the power to do so?? Maybe because Jesus (peace be upon him) is just a man, and cannot send himself because he is not God. Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent because he is a prophet, like all prophets he was sent by God.
Luke 10:16:
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
John 5:24:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
Nope wrong again, Paul rejected the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and added his own interpretations to the bible. The Quran is the ultimate word of God.
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #526
Yes, Jesus came unto His own, but they didn't receive Him but as many has have to them he gave the power to become the sons of God. Jesus gives this power. Of course he need to be sent Just like I would sent word of my will God sends word of His will. His will is that we believe on Him whom he sent.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "So I have to tell you were it states that Jesus is the word of Allah? You don't know where it states that? The verse in Heb. 2 is self explanatory. The Quran speaks the words of Muhammad; Paul speaks the will of God concerning us. PBUY Good night"
ANSWER: Of course you do, and you have to also explain that the Quranic verse in question means Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word, hence according to you God.
If Hebrews 2:1-4 is meant to suggest that God has given his final revelation through his Son which communicated this final message through to men. Then this is false cause Jesus (peace be upon him) was no more than a Prophet just like the rest of the Prophets that God appointed to convey His Message.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to a group of people just like previous Prophets were:
Matthew 15:24:
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Furthermore there are many verses in the bible that acknowledges that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent and that he did not send himself. So my next question is does God need someone to send him? If Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed God he would have sent himself, not let someone send him. If Jesus (peace be upon him) was divine before he was sent to earth as believed by Christians, then why can't a Devine Jesus (peace be upon him) send himself into this world since he had the power to do so?? Maybe because Jesus (peace be upon him) is just a man, and cannot send himself because he is not God. Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent because he is a prophet, like all prophets he was sent by God.
Luke 10:16:
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
John 5:24:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
Nope wrong again, Paul rejected the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and added his own interpretations to the bible. The Quran is the ultimate word of God.
The Bible states that Jesus is the word of God and so does the Bible. The word of God is eternal. I have never heard a Muslim deny that. If the word of God is eternal, His word is also uncreated. You can come to you own conclusion of what that makes Jesus. I have my own convictions and I know who Jesus is to me. I don't see the big deal Muslims make about the trinity (Father, word, spirit). If the Quran didn't come against it, they would make appeals for it not be logical. You come against the trinity not because it is not spiritually logical; it is because of the lies about Him in the Quran that you unfortunately believe to be true. You don't see it the way I do. I see it as Allah had deceived and he continues to do so that is his trade make. Do not be deceived. If Jesus is the word of God, He is all that God's word is not part ALL, complete, the whole; not half; not partner, not an associate; He is not just a word; He is the word; the very word of God. It is God speaking to you now. Jesus is His word; no prophet was ever God's word except for Jesus. The Bible states He is the word who was with God and who was God. The Islamic Allah is a damned liar and so is his false prophet. I don't know how to reach you. Satan can do sign and wonders he is the best at magic and deception and illusion better than all magicians together. He can certain make it appear the moon split in half. Don't fall for his schemes tricks lies or deceptions. Jesus said I am the way for a reason. he didn't say I show the way like other prophets; He didn't say I bring God's word He said whosoever believeth on me will not be ashamed.
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Burninglight
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- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #527
(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Al-Masih, Isa, the son of Maryam, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and he will be one of those who are near to Allah.'') (46. "He will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.'') (47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.'' He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: Be! and it is.'') s 3:45
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Burninglight
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Jesus the word of Allah
Post #528Ibn Kathir proves that is what the Quran means Jesus is the word of Allah. The Quran states that Jesus is not only Allah's word, but also the spirit of Allah. Then in the same verse it contrdicts itself Jesus is no more than a messenger, Sura 4 171; 3 45 lol
The Quran shows Jesus to be divine and then tries to take it back. For instance, it show Jesus to be Spirit of God, the Messiah, the word of God, shows His virgin birth and His sinless state of being, but these things could not be said of any other prophet including the false prophet Muhammad who Allah found astray and who was told to ask for forgiveness in the Quran
Kithir says:
Allah states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allah said,
(They are the foundations of the Book), meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted,
(And others not entirely clear) as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.
The Muhkamat are the Ayat that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented. As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.
Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar commented on,
(In it are verses that are entirely clear) as "Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.'' He also said, "As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allah to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.''
Therefore, Allah said,
(So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation) meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood,
(they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof) meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings. As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allah said,
(seeking Al-Fitnah) meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an -- the Mutashabih of it -- but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that Isa is divine because the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements,
The Quran shows Jesus to be divine and then tries to take it back. For instance, it show Jesus to be Spirit of God, the Messiah, the word of God, shows His virgin birth and His sinless state of being, but these things could not be said of any other prophet including the false prophet Muhammad who Allah found astray and who was told to ask for forgiveness in the Quran
Kithir says:
Allah states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allah said,
(They are the foundations of the Book), meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted,
(And others not entirely clear) as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.
The Muhkamat are the Ayat that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented. As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.
Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar commented on,
(In it are verses that are entirely clear) as "Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.'' He also said, "As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allah to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.''
Therefore, Allah said,
(So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation) meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood,
(they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof) meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings. As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allah said,
(seeking Al-Fitnah) meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an -- the Mutashabih of it -- but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that Isa is divine because the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements,
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #529
The Quran says Jesus is the word of God and the Messiah. Thus, by saying that Jesus is the Messiah, the Quran has duly given Jesus a title which implies that he is the very person that the Quran is otherwise at such pains to deny"the Son of God himself.
I know the Bible says God is not a man that He should lie. This is not a witness against the truth i share. Jesus is God's word made flesh. Like I said Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God is Spirit no one can see Him!
When the Quran calls Him Messiah they are calling Him the son of the living God. Look, Over 300 Old Testament prophecies speak of the coming Messiah ("Christ") and describe him as a man that stands above all other men, including the other prophets of God, and that he would have a regality, majesty, splendor and excellence above all other men. Indeed, he would have divine attributes. Jewish believers in Jesus used the term Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. For example, Peter, one of the first Jewish followers of Jesus said, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16)." Nathaniel (John 1:49), Mark (Mark 1:1), and Martha (John 11:27) are examples of others who used the terms Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. Caiaphas, the Jewish High Priest also used the terms Messiah and Son of God together. When Jesus was on trial, Caiaphas asked Jesus, "I adjure you, by the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 26:63)."
Even demons recognized him in this way. They knew him from all eternity as the eternal Son from the Father and recognized him in human form when he commanded them with authority to depart: "And demons also came out of many, crying, 'You are the Son of God!' But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Messiah (Luke 4:41)."
Only Muslims can't see this is true, because they have been blinded by the master and best of deceivers
I know the Bible says God is not a man that He should lie. This is not a witness against the truth i share. Jesus is God's word made flesh. Like I said Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God is Spirit no one can see Him!
When the Quran calls Him Messiah they are calling Him the son of the living God. Look, Over 300 Old Testament prophecies speak of the coming Messiah ("Christ") and describe him as a man that stands above all other men, including the other prophets of God, and that he would have a regality, majesty, splendor and excellence above all other men. Indeed, he would have divine attributes. Jewish believers in Jesus used the term Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. For example, Peter, one of the first Jewish followers of Jesus said, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16)." Nathaniel (John 1:49), Mark (Mark 1:1), and Martha (John 11:27) are examples of others who used the terms Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. Caiaphas, the Jewish High Priest also used the terms Messiah and Son of God together. When Jesus was on trial, Caiaphas asked Jesus, "I adjure you, by the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 26:63)."
Even demons recognized him in this way. They knew him from all eternity as the eternal Son from the Father and recognized him in human form when he commanded them with authority to depart: "And demons also came out of many, crying, 'You are the Son of God!' But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Messiah (Luke 4:41)."
Only Muslims can't see this is true, because they have been blinded by the master and best of deceivers
Post #530
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Yes, Jesus came unto His own, but they didn't receive Him but as many has have to them he gave the power to become the sons of God. Jesus gives this power. Of course he need to be sent Just like I would sent word of my will God sends word of His will. His will is that we believe on Him whom he sent.
The Bible states that Jesus is the word of God and so does the Bible. The word of God is eternal. I have never heard a Muslim deny that. If the word of God is eternal, His word is also uncreated. You can come to you own conclusion of what that makes Jesus. I have my own convictions and I know who Jesus is to me. I don't see the big deal Muslims make about the trinity (Father, word, spirit). If the Quran didn't come against it, they would make appeals for it not be logical. You come against the trinity not because it is not spiritually logical; it is because of the lies about Him in the Quran that you unfortunately believe to be true. You don't see it the way I do. I see it as Allah had deceived and he continues to do so that is his trade make. Do not be deceived. If Jesus is the word of God, He is all that God's word is not part ALL, complete, the whole; not half; not partner, not an associate; He is not just a word; He is the word; the very word of God. It is God speaking to you now. Jesus is His word; no prophet was ever God's word except for Jesus. The Bible states He is the word who was with God and who was God. The Islamic Allah is a damned liar and so is his false prophet. I don't know how to reach you. Satan can do sign and wonders he is the best at magic and deception and illusion better than all magicians together. He can certain make it appear the moon split in half. Don't fall for his schemes tricks lies or deceptions. Jesus said I am the way for a reason. he didn't say I show the way like other prophets; He didn't say I bring God's word He said whosoever believeth on me will not be ashamed."
ANSWER: Burninglight it is essential to point out that Jesus (peace be upon him) can do nothing without the permission of God. You keep placing Jesus (peace be upon him) above that of God. Jesus (peace be upon him) in the bible says that it is the Father who has given him the power. What does that mean? That means Jesus (peace be upon him) has no power on his own and without the true God, Jesus (peace be upon him) hence cannot do anything. Jesus (peace be upon him) says all things have been given to him by the Father. This means that everything Jesus (peace be upon him) said and did was from the Father. God had given him this power Jesus (peace be upon him) did not do this on his own.
Furthermore Jesus (peace be upon him) says that now they have believed that thou has sent me, so basically "they believe in the True God", because that was Jesus' mission, to make his people realize and worship the true God, and that was the mission of the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).
Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, according to the bible there is again a contradiction in regards to the word of God being eternal. According to Isaiah 40:8 the word of God is eternal, however according to Matthew 5:18 we see that the Law (which is the word of God) will disappear when the heavens and the earth disappear. This is a time limit therefore the law is not eternal. So either Isaiah 40:8 is a false statement or Matthew 5:18 is a false statement or the Law is not the word of God. Which one is it?:
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.
Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Hence it certainly doesn't lead to the conclusion that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the son of God nor God. If you want to believe in what Jesus (peace be upon him) is to you due to what Paul is telling you that's fine, but I can assure you that you haven't understood who Jesus (peace be upon him) really is at all. Burninglight I can't understand how you can believe that the Trinity concept is no big deal, you find nothing wrong with adding a concept that has no evidence in relation to your scripture. The Quran is clearly opposed to such a concept not only because it is illogical but because there is no proof for this anywhere in the original scriptures of God. If you make an assertion about something you need to back it up not just merely say this is deception. This is only your opinion.
Jesus (peace be upon him) did not speak of his own authority. He came and spoke the words of God. Therefore these words of Jesus (peace be upon him) were not really his but from the Father who is the only true God:
John 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me
Furthermore when Jesus (peace be upon him) said that his words are eternal that really meant that it was God's words and not his that was eternal. So Jesus is not God. You are attributing to Jesus (peace be upon him) statements that were never his. You don't need to reach me I have found the religion that God commands human kind to follow and that is the ultimate way of life Islam
QUOTE: "Yes, Jesus came unto His own, but they didn't receive Him but as many has have to them he gave the power to become the sons of God. Jesus gives this power. Of course he need to be sent Just like I would sent word of my will God sends word of His will. His will is that we believe on Him whom he sent.
The Bible states that Jesus is the word of God and so does the Bible. The word of God is eternal. I have never heard a Muslim deny that. If the word of God is eternal, His word is also uncreated. You can come to you own conclusion of what that makes Jesus. I have my own convictions and I know who Jesus is to me. I don't see the big deal Muslims make about the trinity (Father, word, spirit). If the Quran didn't come against it, they would make appeals for it not be logical. You come against the trinity not because it is not spiritually logical; it is because of the lies about Him in the Quran that you unfortunately believe to be true. You don't see it the way I do. I see it as Allah had deceived and he continues to do so that is his trade make. Do not be deceived. If Jesus is the word of God, He is all that God's word is not part ALL, complete, the whole; not half; not partner, not an associate; He is not just a word; He is the word; the very word of God. It is God speaking to you now. Jesus is His word; no prophet was ever God's word except for Jesus. The Bible states He is the word who was with God and who was God. The Islamic Allah is a damned liar and so is his false prophet. I don't know how to reach you. Satan can do sign and wonders he is the best at magic and deception and illusion better than all magicians together. He can certain make it appear the moon split in half. Don't fall for his schemes tricks lies or deceptions. Jesus said I am the way for a reason. he didn't say I show the way like other prophets; He didn't say I bring God's word He said whosoever believeth on me will not be ashamed."
ANSWER: Burninglight it is essential to point out that Jesus (peace be upon him) can do nothing without the permission of God. You keep placing Jesus (peace be upon him) above that of God. Jesus (peace be upon him) in the bible says that it is the Father who has given him the power. What does that mean? That means Jesus (peace be upon him) has no power on his own and without the true God, Jesus (peace be upon him) hence cannot do anything. Jesus (peace be upon him) says all things have been given to him by the Father. This means that everything Jesus (peace be upon him) said and did was from the Father. God had given him this power Jesus (peace be upon him) did not do this on his own.
Furthermore Jesus (peace be upon him) says that now they have believed that thou has sent me, so basically "they believe in the True God", because that was Jesus' mission, to make his people realize and worship the true God, and that was the mission of the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).
Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, according to the bible there is again a contradiction in regards to the word of God being eternal. According to Isaiah 40:8 the word of God is eternal, however according to Matthew 5:18 we see that the Law (which is the word of God) will disappear when the heavens and the earth disappear. This is a time limit therefore the law is not eternal. So either Isaiah 40:8 is a false statement or Matthew 5:18 is a false statement or the Law is not the word of God. Which one is it?:
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.
Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Hence it certainly doesn't lead to the conclusion that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the son of God nor God. If you want to believe in what Jesus (peace be upon him) is to you due to what Paul is telling you that's fine, but I can assure you that you haven't understood who Jesus (peace be upon him) really is at all. Burninglight I can't understand how you can believe that the Trinity concept is no big deal, you find nothing wrong with adding a concept that has no evidence in relation to your scripture. The Quran is clearly opposed to such a concept not only because it is illogical but because there is no proof for this anywhere in the original scriptures of God. If you make an assertion about something you need to back it up not just merely say this is deception. This is only your opinion.
Jesus (peace be upon him) did not speak of his own authority. He came and spoke the words of God. Therefore these words of Jesus (peace be upon him) were not really his but from the Father who is the only true God:
John 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me
Furthermore when Jesus (peace be upon him) said that his words are eternal that really meant that it was God's words and not his that was eternal. So Jesus is not God. You are attributing to Jesus (peace be upon him) statements that were never his. You don't need to reach me I have found the religion that God commands human kind to follow and that is the ultimate way of life Islam
