Islam is anti women

[CabinInTheForest]

The oppression of women that Islam advocates is not only disturbing, but is direct contrast with everything that Christian civilization stands for when it comes to the rights of women.

The Quran

A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like

Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status

A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . .

A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her.

A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [In that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry

Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war]

A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession.

A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense.

Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. Islam supports peadophilia.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.

Mohammed had an 8 year old wife (peadophilia).

Although in the Quran he would limit his followers to having four wives, Mohammed himself took more than four wives and concubines.

It also poses a logical problem for Muslims. Because the Quran in Sura 4:3 forbids the taking of more than four wives, to have taken any more would have been sinful for Muhammad.

LIST OF MOHAMMED WIVES

1.Khadija 12. Hend
2. Sawda 13. Asma (of Saba)
3. Aesha 14. Zaynab (of Khozayma)
4. Omm Salama 15. Habla
5. Halsa 16. Asma (of Noman)
6. Zaynab (of Jahsh) 17. Mary (the Christian)
7. Jowayriyi 18. Rayhana
8. Omm Habiba 19. Omm Sharik
9. Safiya 20. Maymuna
10. Maymuna (of Hareth) 21. Zaynab (a third one)
11. Fatema 22. Khawla
12. Hend
13. Asma (of Saba)
14. Zaynab (of Khozayma)
15. Habla
16. Asma (of Noman)
17. Mary (the Christian)
18. Rayhana
19. Omm Sharik
20. Maymuna
21. Zaynab (a third one)
22. Khawla

The first 16 women were wives. Numbers 17 and 18 were slaves or concubines.

The last four women were neither wives or slaves but devout Muslim women who "gave" themselves to satisfy Muhammad's sexual desires.

Aesha was only eight or nine years old when Muhammad took her to his bed. According to Hadith, she was still playing with her dolls. This facet of Muhammad's sexual appetite is particularly distressing to christians and hindus.

This aspect of Muhammad's personal life is something that many scholars pass over once again because they do not want to hurt the feelings of Muslims. Yet, history cannot be rewritten to avoid confronting the facts that Muhammad had unnatural desires for little girls. Islam and Mohammed is immoral.

[Fatihah]

Hello Fatihah,

One last thing which I don't think you've made clear in your posts so far.

Are Muslims, according to your version of Islam, allowed to marry female slaves and consider them and refer to them as slaves after marriage?

Thank you.

Response: Not at all. She should be treated with the same freedom and respect as marrying a woman who is not a slave.

I see. Just to make sure that I'm not misrepresenting your position, you seem to believe that

-Muslims are not allowed to have sex with slaves
-Muslims are only allowed to have sex with their wives, which cannot be treated as or called slaves when they are their wives

Correct?

Assuming it is,

1. What might your prophet say if he learned that one of his married men was having sex with a female slave which is not his wife? Would he condemn the action?

2. Are Muslims allowed to lust after their female slaves (i.e. have carnal desires for them)?

3. If so, can they lust after slaves, but not after other women who aren't their wives?

-Woland

Response: Your assumption is correct. So to answer your questions:

1. The way you phrased the questions "one of his married men" sounds as if you suggest Muhammad married a man which would never be the case. But assuming that you are not and is just referring to one of his fellow muslim men who are married, then yes Muhammad would condemn the action, as sex with a female slave who is not his wife is adultery, which is forbidden in islam.

2. In islam, it is not condoned to lust for any woman who is not your wife or a woman you seek to have a legal marriage with. So the answer to your question would have to be no.

3. Again, lusting for a woman who is neither your wife nor a woman you intend to have a legal marriage with is forbidden in islam.

[Woland]

Hello Fatihah,

To recap what I understand to be your position here:

-Muslims are not allowed to lust after slaves
-Muslims are not allowed to have sex with slaves
-Muslims can only have sex with their wives
-Muslims are not allowed to refer to their wives as slaves, even if they were slaves before marriage

1. How do you explain this verse from the Quran which "apparently" allows for the sort of interaction which you said Islam condemned?

023.001
YUSUFALI: The believers must (eventually) win through,-
PICKTHAL: Successful indeed are the believers
SHAKIR: Successful indeed are the believers,

023.002
YUSUFALI: Those who humble themselves in their prayers;
PICKTHAL: Who are humble in their prayers,
SHAKIR: Who are humble in their prayers,

023.003
YUSUFALI: Who avoid vain talk;
PICKTHAL: And who shun vain conversation,
SHAKIR: And who keep aloof from what is vain,

023.004
YUSUFALI: Who are active in deeds of charity;
PICKTHAL: And who are payers of the poor-due;
SHAKIR: And who are givers of poor-rate,

023.005
YUSUFALI: Who abstain from sex,
PICKTHAL: And who guard their modesty -
SHAKIR: And who guard their private parts,

023.006
YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
PICKTHAL: Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
SHAKIR: Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,

2. How do you explain this verse of the Quran where Allah "apparently" allows Muhammad to have the sort of interaction with slaves which you said Islam prohibits?

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I would like to add that it would be ridiculous for you to say that this verse serves to allow the "prophet" to marry his slaves - it's obviously not the case.

3. Why are there several Sahih Hadith where Muhammad simply doesn't seem to be concerned at all that his men, some of which are married already, are having sex with slaves they are not married to? He doesn't condemn them in the slightest but instead says that Allah will decide whether or not "a soul" will be created by the intercourse.

Here are a few examples from http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence."



(also refer to Bukhari Vol. 3, #718)





FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection".

Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, "No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.""



(also ref. Bukhari 5:459).




FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 5, #637:

Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."

And a few other examples from Sahih Muslim.

FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3371

Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".







FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3432

Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).

Thank you

-Woland

[LiamOS]

I wasn't referring to the book. I was referring to the alleged proof from the book, which we can see does not exist.

Until you actually read the book, please don't just dismiss everything out of hand.
Seriously, it's sitting in a library waiting for you.

[Fatihah]

Hello Fatihah,

To recap what I understand to be your position here:

-Muslims are not allowed to lust after slaves
-Muslims are not allowed to have sex with slaves
-Muslims can only have sex with their wives
-Muslims are not allowed to refer to their wives as slaves, even if they were slaves before marriage

1. How do you explain this verse from the Quran which "apparently" allows for the sort of interaction which you said Islam condemned?

023.001
YUSUFALI: The believers must (eventually) win through,-
PICKTHAL: Successful indeed are the believers
SHAKIR: Successful indeed are the believers,

023.002
YUSUFALI: Those who humble themselves in their prayers;
PICKTHAL: Who are humble in their prayers,
SHAKIR: Who are humble in their prayers,

023.003
YUSUFALI: Who avoid vain talk;
PICKTHAL: And who shun vain conversation,
SHAKIR: And who keep aloof from what is vain,

023.004
YUSUFALI: Who are active in deeds of charity;
PICKTHAL: And who are payers of the poor-due;
SHAKIR: And who are givers of poor-rate,

023.005
YUSUFALI: Who abstain from sex,
PICKTHAL: And who guard their modesty -
SHAKIR: And who guard their private parts,

023.006
YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
PICKTHAL: Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
SHAKIR: Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,

2. How do you explain this verse of the Quran where Allah "apparently" allows Muhammad to have the sort of interaction with slaves which you said Islam prohibits?

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I would like to add that it would be ridiculous for you to say that this verse serves to allow the "prophet" to marry his slaves - it's obviously not the case.

3. Why are there several Sahih Hadith where Muhammad simply doesn't seem to be concerned at all that his men, some of which are married already, are having sex with slaves they are not married to? He doesn't condemn them in the slightest but instead says that Allah will decide whether or not "a soul" will be created by the intercourse.

Here are a few examples from http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence."



(also refer to Bukhari Vol. 3, #718)





FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection".

Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, "No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.""



(also ref. Bukhari 5:459).




FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 5, #637:

Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."

And a few other examples from Sahih Muslim.

FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3371

Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".







FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3432

Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).

Thank you

-Woland

Response: Since the qur'an clearly condemns the act of adultery and doing deeds prohibited in islam, then it is clear that all the texts in which you've quoted in reference to sexual relations with slave women must refer to the confines of marriage. Thus the text does not give a meaning contrary to what I've explained. The absence of the word "marriage" does not mean that the muslims did not marry the slaves, simply because the context of the qur'an clearly states that the text is in reference to marriage. The word "marry" or "marriage" is not necessary.

Similarly, if I mentioned to you previously that my favorite foods are chicken and beef, then I later ask of you to purchase my two favorite foods, what would they be? It would obviously be chicken and beef, proven by the context. As shown, it is not necessary for me two mention what the two foods are. I can replace the words chicken and beef with "my favorite two foods" because of the context and have the same meaning. Similarly, the mentioning of wanting or having sexual desires or relations with a slave women means to have sexual relations in the confines of marriage, as the context of the qur'an clearly states that sex outside of marriage and desiring evil and bad deeds is prohibited.

[Fatihah]

I wasn't referring to the book. I was referring to the alleged proof from the book, which we can see does not exist.

Until you actually read the book, please don't just dismiss everything out of hand.
Seriously, it's sitting in a library waiting for you.

Response: Actually, until you can provide proof from the book, then dismiss from mentioning it.

[otseng]

Again, if you lacked a certain intellectual difficiency as a child, that's your business. But don't input your difficiency on others.

Moderator warning.

This would be considered to be a violation of the rules. Please avoid making any negative comments about others.

[Fatihah]

Again, if you lacked a certain intellectual difficiency as a child, that's your business. But don't input your difficiency on others.

Moderator warning.

This would be considered to be a violation of the rules. Please avoid making any negative comments about others.

Response: But it can not be an insult if the poster themself agrees. For the poster themself in post 26 and 29 stated themself that people under the age of 11 are incapable of making reasonable decisions based on hypothetical situations, which would mean that those under 11 have a certain intellectual difficiency, which also means that the poster themself acknowledges that they themself possesed an intellectual difficiency under the age of 11. I simply stated for the poster not to impose their lack of difficiency on me or others. There was no insult.

[Woland]

Hello Fatihah,

Your response is highly unsatisfactory, and in my opinion, it makes you look like you are desperately looking for excuses to reconcile Islam's texts with what you said Islam is, instead of admitting there is a contradiction between your words and the Quran and Hadith.

Let's see.

Response: Since the qur'an clearly condemns the act of adultery and doing deeds prohibited in islam,

Sure, I believe it condemns what it refers to as adultery. The Quran and Sahih Hadith simply do not consider sleeping with slaves (mentioned many times in the Quran and Sahih Hadith) as being adultery - and evidently, your prophet did not either, since he did not reprimand his men as they wanted to have sex with slaves which they wanted to resell for ransom. Would you pretend that they were going to ransom their wives or would-be? Feel free to do so, but you have no other recourse, in my view, than denial.

then it is clear that all the texts in which you've quoted in reference to sexual relations with slave women must refer to the confines of marriage.

It certainly seems that you are reluctant to address your own texts themselves. What you just said amounts to "since I can't be wrong, I must be right and the texts do not mean what they clearly stipulate". Please explain to me why the texts provided from the Quran and Sahih Hadith are reffering to intercourse with wives and not slaves. Do not forget the Hadith about ransom. It will be interesting.

I find it funny that you talked about "sexual relations with slave women" in your quote above but also previously claimed that wives cannot be slaves after marriage.

Thus the text does not give a meaning contrary to what I've explained.

This is a very fallacious argument which consists of unsupported claims to boot. Would you mind substantiating your claims?

The absence of the word "marriage" does not mean that the muslims did not marry the slaves, simply because the context of the qur'an clearly states that the text is in reference to marriage. The word "marry" or "marriage" is not necessary.

Of course it's not. Now, explain to me how the following texts could even possibly be reffering to intercourse with wives and not slaves.

Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).

Notice that the Hadith mentions the slaves' husbands.
Notice that the text speaks about captive women.
Notice that the texts speaks about intercourse with captive women.

Next.

Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".

Notice the intent for ransom (how peaceful), and the concern that impregnating the women will invalidate their ransom claims.
Notice that they want to have sexual intercourse with them, but by doing coitus interruptus.
Notice that the Muslims are away from their wives i.e. married.
Notice that Muhammad simply doesn't care.

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence."

Notice the word "booty" - how peace-inspiring of our pious, peaceful Muslims to refer to human beings as property acquired in war.
Notice the ransom intent.
Notice the concern about impregnating the women.
Notice the "prophet" doesn't care.

How about we move on to the Quran? Let's see what the HOLY Quran has to say on this matter.

023.001
YUSUFALI: The believers must (eventually) win through,-
PICKTHAL: Successful indeed are the believers
SHAKIR: Successful indeed are the believers,

023.002
YUSUFALI: Those who humble themselves in their prayers;
PICKTHAL: Who are humble in their prayers,
SHAKIR: Who are humble in their prayers,

023.003
YUSUFALI: Who avoid vain talk;
PICKTHAL: And who shun vain conversation,
SHAKIR: And who keep aloof from what is vain,

023.004
YUSUFALI: Who are active in deeds of charity;
PICKTHAL: And who are payers of the poor-due;
SHAKIR: And who are givers of poor-rate,

023.005
YUSUFALI: Who abstain from sex,
PICKTHAL: And who guard their modesty -
SHAKIR: And who guard their private parts,

023.006
YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
PICKTHAL: Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
SHAKIR: Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,

Explain to me how you could ever read the above without understanding the distinction between wives and captives (do you understand what "OR" means in the text?), and that both are lawful for sexual intercourse. Your simply stating that "Islam prohibits this therefore it doesn't mean what it "apparently" (in the eyes of us "misunderstanders of Islam") says" will not be accepted as satisfactory.

Similarly, if I mentioned to you previously that my favorite foods are chicken and beef, then I later ask of you to purchase my two favorite foods, what would they be? It would obviously be chicken and beef, proven by the context. As shown, it is not necessary for me two mention what the two foods are. I can replace the words chicken and beef with "my favorite two foods" because of the context and have the same meaning. Similarly, the mentioning of wanting or having sexual desires or relations with a slave women means to have sexual relations in the confines of marriage, as the context of the qur'an clearly states that sex outside of marriage and desiring evil and bad deeds is prohibited.

I find it interesting that you used an analogy where you purchase food to draw a parralel to marrying women in Islam, but your explanation above is not acceptable in the light of the clear words of the clear Quran.

What did "Allah" have to say concerning the prophet having sex with slaves?

Let's see.

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Are you really denying, especially in the light of the other references provided above and below, that the texts speaks of wives and slaves as different categories of people?

Next.

FROM THE QURAN - 70:22-30
"Not so the worshippers, who are steadfast in prayer, who set aside a due portion of their wealth for the beggar and for the deprived, who truly believe in the Day of Reckoning and dread the punishment of their Lord (for none is secure from the punishment of their Lord); who restrain their carnal desire (save with their wives and their slave girls, for these are lawful to them: he that lusts after other than these is a transgressor..."

Are you really telling me that the verse does not allow Muslims to have "carnal desires" for their slave girls, as you said was prohibited in Islam?

Please explain why this is the case or admit that your words contradict the Quran and Hadith.

-Woland

[Fatihah]

Hello Fatihah,

Your response is highly unsatisfactory, and in my opinion, it makes you look like you are desperately looking for excuses to reconcile Islam's texts with what you said Islam is, instead of admitting there is a contradiction between your words and the Quran and Hadith.

Let's see.

Response: Since the qur'an clearly condemns the act of adultery and doing deeds prohibited in islam,

Sure, I believe it condemns what it refers to as adultery. The Quran and Sahih Hadith simply do not consider sleeping with slaves (mentioned many times in the Quran and Sahih Hadith) as being adultery - and evidently, your prophet did not either, since he did not reprimand his men as they wanted to have sex with slaves which they wanted to resell for ransom. Would you pretend that they were going to ransom their wives or would-be? Feel free to do so, but you have no other recourse, in my view, than denial.

then it is clear that all the texts in which you've quoted in reference to sexual relations with slave women must refer to the confines of marriage.

It certainly seems that you are reluctant to address your own texts themselves. What you just said amounts to "since I can't be wrong, I must be right and the texts do not mean what they clearly stipulate". Please explain to me why the texts provided from the Quran and Sahih Hadith are reffering to intercourse with wives and not slaves. Do not forget the Hadith about ransom. It will be interesting.

I find it funny that you talked about "sexual relations with slave women" in your quote above but also previously claimed that wives cannot be slaves after marriage.

Thus the text does not give a meaning contrary to what I've explained.

This is a very fallacious argument which consists of unsupported claims to boot. Would you mind substantiating your claims?

The absence of the word "marriage" does not mean that the muslims did not marry the slaves, simply because the context of the qur'an clearly states that the text is in reference to marriage. The word "marry" or "marriage" is not necessary.

Of course it's not. Now, explain to me how the following texts could even possibly be reffering to intercourse with wives and not slaves.

Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).

Notice that the Hadith mentions the slaves' husbands.
Notice that the text speaks about captive women.
Notice that the texts speaks about intercourse with captive women.

Next.

Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".

Notice the intent for ransom (how peaceful), and the concern that impregnating the women will invalidate their ransom claims.
Notice that they want to have sexual intercourse with them, but by doing coitus interruptus.
Notice that the Muslims are away from their wives i.e. married.
Notice that Muhammad simply doesn't care.

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence."

Notice the word "booty" - how peace-inspiring of our pious, peaceful Muslims to refer to human beings as property acquired in war.
Notice the ransom intent.
Notice the concern about impregnating the women.
Notice the "prophet" doesn't care.

How about we move on to the Quran? Let's see what the HOLY Quran has to say on this matter.

023.001
YUSUFALI: The believers must (eventually) win through,-
PICKTHAL: Successful indeed are the believers
SHAKIR: Successful indeed are the believers,

023.002
YUSUFALI: Those who humble themselves in their prayers;
PICKTHAL: Who are humble in their prayers,
SHAKIR: Who are humble in their prayers,

023.003
YUSUFALI: Who avoid vain talk;
PICKTHAL: And who shun vain conversation,
SHAKIR: And who keep aloof from what is vain,

023.004
YUSUFALI: Who are active in deeds of charity;
PICKTHAL: And who are payers of the poor-due;
SHAKIR: And who are givers of poor-rate,

023.005
YUSUFALI: Who abstain from sex,
PICKTHAL: And who guard their modesty -
SHAKIR: And who guard their private parts,

023.006
YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
PICKTHAL: Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
SHAKIR: Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,

Explain to me how you could ever read the above without understanding the distinction between wives and captives (do you understand what "OR" means in the text?), and that both are lawful for sexual intercourse. Your simply stating that "Islam prohibits this therefore it doesn't mean what it "apparently" (in the eyes of us "misunderstanders of Islam") says" will not be accepted as satisfactory.

Similarly, if I mentioned to you previously that my favorite foods are chicken and beef, then I later ask of you to purchase my two favorite foods, what would they be? It would obviously be chicken and beef, proven by the context. As shown, it is not necessary for me two mention what the two foods are. I can replace the words chicken and beef with "my favorite two foods" because of the context and have the same meaning. Similarly, the mentioning of wanting or having sexual desires or relations with a slave women means to have sexual relations in the confines of marriage, as the context of the qur'an clearly states that sex outside of marriage and desiring evil and bad deeds is prohibited.

I find it interesting that you used an analogy where you purchase food to draw a parralel to marrying women in Islam, but your explanation above is not acceptable in the light of the clear words of the clear Quran.

What did "Allah" have to say concerning the prophet having sex with slaves?

Let's see.

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Are you really denying, especially in the light of the other references provided above and below, that the texts speaks of wives and slaves as different categories of people?

Next.

FROM THE QURAN - 70:22-30
"Not so the worshippers, who are steadfast in prayer, who set aside a due portion of their wealth for the beggar and for the deprived, who truly believe in the Day of Reckoning and dread the punishment of their Lord (for none is secure from the punishment of their Lord); who restrain their carnal desire (save with their wives and their slave girls, for these are lawful to them: he that lusts after other than these is a transgressor..."

Are you really telling me that the verse does not allow Muslims to have "carnal desires" for their slave girls, as you said was prohibited in Islam?

Please explain why this is the case or admit that your words contradict the Quran and Hadith.

-Woland

Response: As I've already mentioned, the qur'an clearly prohibits sexual intercourse outside of marriage, thus sexual intercourse with slave women who are not wives is prohibited. Therefore, all the text in which you've quoted referring to sexual relations with captive women refer to doing so in the confines of marriage.There is no contradiction, for none of the text in which you've quoted says it's o.k. to have sexual relations outside of marriage.

[Woland]

Response: As I've already mentioned, the qur'an clearly prohibits sexual intercourse outside of marriage,

No.

I've shown that it's acceptable under Islamic jurisprudence, quoting from the Quran and Hadith, to have sex with slaves without any intent to marry. The words of the Quran and Hadith are clear in this matter, and I strongly feel that this is why you do not address the clear texts themselves -or my posts and arguments, for that matter- but prefer to make unsubstantiated triumphalist claims that you are correct.

Substantiate your claims or concede the argument.

For your information, even if the Quran, somewhere else, explicitly states that sex is only within the confines of marriage, it doesn't change anything to the demonstrable and self-evident fact that the verses and Hadith speak of sex with slaves as being permissible. It would only prove that the Quran (i.e. words from Muhammad, the man) contradicts itself in yet another way, suggesting that it was man-made.

thus sexual intercourse with slave women who are not wives is prohibited.

Can slave women be wives at the same time? You've already said that this isn't the case. Do not run away from addressing the texts which draw clear, unequivocal distinctions between slaves and wives, and permit sex with both.

Therefore, all the text in which you've quoted referring to sexual relations with captive women refer to doing so in the confines of marriage.

As I said, you claimed that slaves could not be wives and remain slaves, and the texts are clearly reffering to sexual intercourse with slaves, not wives.

There is no contradiction, for none of the text in which you've quoted says it's o.k. to have sexual relations outside of marriage.

There are several contradictions, and all of the texts I've quoted suggest that your Allah and his alter ego Muhammad had no problem whatsoever with sex with slaves.

For more information and sources, please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_ ... oncubinage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_se ... ith_slaves

Many of the sources in these pages are from Muslims themselves.

See here also, another page by a Muslim which tries to prove that it's alright in the proper context to have sex with slaves - http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/f/Sex_w.slaves.a.women.html

These verses refer to the permissibility of a man for intercourse with his unmarried female slaves without having to marry them. Such an option was not available to women owners of male slaves nor to men owners of married female slaves.

If you want to see something really interesting, take a few minutes and go explore what your Muslim brothers have to say in defense of sex with slaves here -
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthr ... s-in-Islam and in other such forums.

There are PLENTY of places where Muslims, including "scholars", defend the right to have sex with slave girls.

Do you still deny that your own religious texts corroborate this?

You will have to provide more than just claim after claim. It's basic debate etiquette. If you cannot adhere to the rules of the forum, you will be reported.

-Woland