Paganism

[Antagonist]

I would like some first hand information about (modern) Paganism.

I have some questions:

- What is paganism about?
- What do you worship?
- How do friends/family or other non-Pagans react to your Religion?
- Do Pagans have some kind of Church or Holy Book?
- How where you converted/ What made you become a Pagan?

I'm just very interested. you don't hear much about Paganism and since there is no topic about it I decided to make one.

Non- Pagans feel free to reply. what do you think/know about Paganism?

[McCulloch]

The bad choice is following yourself instead of God, there is no boogeyman holding candy out to tempt you. That self-will without God is bad and thus Satan. As well as atheism and secularism.

Ok, you're starting to tick me off. Either prove those who reject god are Satan, or withdraw the claim.

This is what the Bible says and it forms the basis of my belief, let's avoid taking it personally.

Typical religious dodge. Without giving any indication of why the Bible is to be believed, they blame the Bible for any objectionable beliefs that they hold, rather than proudly taking ownership of what they believe.

Now we also have a subset of atheism in the Church of Satan, which doesn't accept a deity but glorifies the carnal self and identifies that attribute as Satan.

So this idea of being Satan is also an argument between atheists, not just between atheists and theists.

Let's follow the logic. Some Satanists are atheists, therefore atheism is Satanic. Is that right?

[Grand Pbuh]

Typical religious dodge. Without giving any indication of why the Bible is to be believed, they blame the Bible for any objectionable beliefs that they hold, rather than proudly taking ownership of what they believe.

I'm giving you the source for my beliefs, not blaming the source. Obviously if they are MY beliefs I'm already taking ownership of them. So your statement is nonsensical.

Let's follow the logic. Some Satanists are atheists, therefore atheism is Satanic. Is that right?

According to the Church of Satan as well as the Bible, Satan is reliance on self-will as opposed to reliance on God. If atheism is reliance on self-will not God's, then according to those standards, atheism is satanic.

Is atheism about reliance on self-will not God's?

[Goat]

According to the Church of Satan as well as the Bible, Satan is reliance on self-will as opposed to reliance on God. If atheism is reliance on self-will not God's, then according to those standards, atheism is satanic.

Is atheism about reliance on self-will not God's?

Let us see the quote in the bible that says Satan is reliance on self will. I would really like to see you back up that claim.

As for the Church of Satan, I have no seen any of their actual books. How about giving a source for that too.

[Grand Pbuh]

Let us see the quote in the bible that says Satan is reliance on self will. I would really like to see you back up that claim.

Example:

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Satan tempting Jesus to follow his own will and turn stones into bread to feed his hunger, rather than God's will to fast.

As for the Church of Satan, I have no seen any of their actual books. How about giving a source for that too.

Example:

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,� has become the most vicious animal of all.

The Nine Satanic Statements

Their website is down at the moment but you can view the page cache in Google, or the wiki article:

Church of Satan wiki

[Grand Pbuh]

The claim that those who reject God make Satan a God is slanderous, libelous, and hideous.

How can a fairy tale hurt anyone?

It isn't the fairy tale that does. It is the people that believe it, and act as if Satan really exists, and insults other people that do the hurting.

I struggle with this Satan all the time, like sometimes I want to follow my own will and lust after other women not my wife. I have to pray to fight it. I've given in many times. So it's not a matter of me being personally better than unbelievers, but a matter of God being better than Satan, in my view.

There's no reason to be hurt or take it personally, it just muddies up the discussion.

[Goat]

Let us see the quote in the bible that says Satan is reliance on self will. I would really like to see you back up that claim.

Example:

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Satan tempting Jesus to follow his own will and turn stones into bread to feed his hunger, rather than God's will to fast.

As for the Church of Satan, I have no seen any of their actual books. How about giving a source for that too.

Example:

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,� has become the most vicious animal of all.

The Nine Satanic Statements

Their website is down at the moment but you can view the page cache in Google, or the wiki article:

Church of Satan wiki

Well, when it comes to the bible quote, maybe I am obtuse, but I don't see how you get from what is written in the bible to what you claim it says.

When it comes to the nine statement from the Church of Satan, I don't see where you got your conclusion also. You are making claims based on relationships that don't seem to be in existence. You are making connections that aren't there at all.

[Grand Pbuh]

Well, when it comes to the bible quote, maybe I am obtuse, but I don't see how you get from what is written in the bible to what you claim it says.

In the other thread I also gave the example of Peter, who was already told it was God's will that Jesus must die, saying that Jesus shouldn't die. With Jesus replying by calling Peter "Satan" because he was favoring his own will that Jesus not die, over God's will.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Normally you might think your friend NOT wanting you to die would be a good thing, right? But not in this case since it was Satan and Peter's own self-will against God's will.

When it comes to the nine statement from the Church of Satan, I don't see where you got your conclusion also. You are making claims based on relationships that don't seem to be in existence. You are making connections that aren't there at all.

The Statements I referenced say that we shouldn't rely on spiritual pipedreams, but live a vital existence by relying on our own animal instincts to get what we want for ourselves.

The position of many atheists is that seeking help from an imaginary God is a waste of time, and that instead we should rely on our own abilities as evolved animals to get what we want.

Looks similar to me.

[Furrowed Brow]

Followed the linked to wiki Gran Pbuh. Apparently the nine satanic statements are regarded as truisms.

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,� has become the most vicious animal of all
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these

Well I’m an atheist and I find the nine statements laughable. They read either as nonsense or advocate ideas I pretty much disagree with. So given I'm an atheist how does that square with me being a satanist?

Also I should have added atheists have no priesthood. These Satanist guys may like to associate themselves with the word atheism, but whilst they may accept atheism, everything they say in the name of satanism is something else.

]Following the message of the Serpent against God's commands in order be as a god yourself and not need God anymore is outlined in the Bible.

I don’t follow…or even read the bible. So I’m a bit unclear as to the message I’m supposed to be guilty of following. The message can’t be in the nine statements because I don’t follow those, and readily dismiss them. If you are saying that not believing in the Abrahamic deity is sufficient to be a satanist then I think this reduces to a question of semantics. You can call me Fred Flintstone if you wish, but the label is either false or meaningless. To be a god myself?..........is not something I strive for, and an atheist striving to be a god would certainly be a confused atheist.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I guess you know the difference between good and evil phuh. Does that make you a Satanist too?

There is no evidence self-will can prevent death. Death is a bad thing for people who want to live.

We all die. That is a given. While it can be terribly sad, and seem unfair it is neither inherently good or bad. It's just something that happens to us all eventually. The only thing we can affect is our own attitude in the face of death.

According to the Church of Satan as well as the Bible, Satan is reliance on self-will as opposed to reliance on God.

I’m not sure what is really meant by “reliance on self-will�. It is apparent to me that I make mistakes on a daily basis. So I gave up relying on my ability to make decisions a long time ago. However, as I have no other means for negotiating life I am stuck with my own faulty faculties. But recognizing that you are stuck with something is not “reliance�, it is more a form of acceptance.

If atheism is reliance on self-will not God's, then according to those standards, atheism is satanic.

Maybe we can test the premise. What is self-will? Please provide examples of Atheist’s reliance on self-will.

[Grand Pbuh]

So given I'm an atheist how does that square with me being a satanist?

The bedrock of their idea of Satan, as well as the Bible's, is rejection of God for the secular.

Also I should have added atheists have no priesthood. These Satanist guys may like to associate themselves with the word atheism, but whilst they may accept atheism, everything they say in the name of satanism is something else.

Priesthood is simply leadership, other atheists have Dawkins, Hutchins, Penn & Teller...some atheists prefer apples, some prefer oranges, others prefer a salad, all preach the same primary message of "fruit" -- in this case, rejection of God.

I don’t follow…or even read the bible. So I’m a bit unclear as to the message I’m supposed to be guilty of following.

Humans as the only accepted highest intelligence, as opposed to intelligence of God.

The message can’t be in the nine statements because I don’t follow those, and readily dismiss them. If you are saying that not believing in the Abrahamic deity is sufficient to be a satanist then I think this reduces to a question of semantics. You can call me Fred Flintstone if you wish, but the label is either false or meaningless.

The label may or may not be false or meaningless, neither one of us has proof to show either way. You simply reject it as that for now, which is fine. Evidence from my view says otherwise.

To be a god myself?..........is not something I strive for, and an atheist striving to be a god would certainly be a confused atheist.

The focus is on result of such pursuits, which is belief that God is unnecessary: you don't need God if you make yourself God over yourself. Doesn't have to be a conscious pursuit, but that's the result.

I guess you know the difference between good and evil phuh. Does that make you a Satanist too?

Whenever I sin, sure, then I know what it feels like to be evil. I try not to make that a lifestyle choice though.

There is no evidence self-will can prevent death. Death is a bad thing for people who want to live.

We all die. That is a given. While it can be terribly sad, and seem unfair it is neither inherently good or bad. It's just something that happens to us all eventually. The only thing we can affect is our own attitude in the face of death.

Would you rather be alive or dead, at any point in time? Simple question.

According to the Church of Satan as well as the Bible, Satan is reliance on self-will as opposed to reliance on God.

I’m not sure what is really meant by “reliance on self-will�. It is apparent to me that I make mistakes on a daily basis. So I gave up relying on my ability to make decisions a long time ago. However, as I have no other means for negotiating life I am stuck with my own faulty faculties. But recognizing that you are stuck with something is not “reliance�, it is more a form of acceptance.

Maybe we can test the premise. What is self-will? Please provide examples of Atheist’s reliance on self-will.

If that's all you think you have then that's all you think you rely on, right? Doesn't matter if you like it or not. So also prayer helps me not do things I think I want to do, like for example, lust for women other than my wife. Which for me is Satan since in the past such lust has led to adultery, divorce, and disaster.

No I can't prove it's not self-hypnosis, but the intention is prayer to God, and for some reason doing that usually works to help me avoid bad behavior, and not involving God usually doesn't work. I just go ahead and do it.

So that would be a difference between self-will vs. God's will.

[JoeyKnothead]

The claim that those who reject God make Satan a God is slanderous, libelous, and hideous.

How can a fairy tale hurt anyone?

When it is used to demonize anyone who disagrees with it. When used to make blanket statements that those who reject an unprovable God are by default Satan.

You're a bigot and you hide behind ancient tales to insult those who disagree with you.

Your fairy tale has made you a bigot.