Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

[McCulloch]

Quran is self-evident, yes very truly.

Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

[TrueReligion]

Why Ive to accept your changed views? I already gave answer to proof of God, we will discuss for that proof only if you answer me that you believe in God or no.

I never said that we wont discuss, you ask question, I gave answer, now you answer my question, after which I will answer your question.
Its simple and fair rule of debate wyvern, be coperative please

I have already told you my conditions, if you want an answer to something that is off topic you must answer my off topic.

If you want to stay on topic please refer to posts 175-177 for refutations to your argument for the existancve of god.

If you wish to do neither then this conversation is over.

Sorry Wyvern, my answer is already provided, any further answer will be provided after you will answer to me.

Beside, we will discuss about Quran here, for existence of God we have many other topics going on, we can make another post for that and discuss there. If you want any other discussion on Quran you can do here, otherwise consider this 1 is over

[Wyvern]

Why Ive to accept your changed views? I already gave answer to proof of God, we will discuss for that proof only if you answer me that you believe in God or no.

I never said that we wont discuss, you ask question, I gave answer, now you answer my question, after which I will answer your question.
Its simple and fair rule of debate wyvern, be coperative please

I have already told you my conditions, if you want an answer to something that is off topic you must answer my off topic.

If you want to stay on topic please refer to posts 175-177 for refutations to your argument for the existancve of god.

If you wish to do neither then this conversation is over.

Sorry Wyvern, my answer is already provided, any further answer will be provided after you will answer to me.

Beside, we will discuss about Quran here, for existence of God we have many other topics going on, we can make another post for that and discuss there. If you want any other discussion on Quran you can do here, otherwise consider this 1 is over

Very well then you have chosen option three, your argument for the existance of god has been refuted and of course without god the koran can not be true so you have conceded your argument and the claim of this thread.

[TrueReligion]

Why Ive to accept your changed views? I already gave answer to proof of God, we will discuss for that proof only if you answer me that you believe in God or no.

I never said that we wont discuss, you ask question, I gave answer, now you answer my question, after which I will answer your question.
Its simple and fair rule of debate wyvern, be coperative please

I have already told you my conditions, if you want an answer to something that is off topic you must answer my off topic.

If you want to stay on topic please refer to posts 175-177 for refutations to your argument for the existancve of god.

If you wish to do neither then this conversation is over.

Sorry Wyvern, my answer is already provided, any further answer will be provided after you will answer to me.

Beside, we will discuss about Quran here, for existence of God we have many other topics going on, we can make another post for that and discuss there. If you want any other discussion on Quran you can do here, otherwise consider this 1 is over

Very well then you have chosen option three, your argument for the existance of god has been refuted and of course without god the koran can not be true so you have conceded your argument and the claim of this thread.

No Sir, my prove is given already, its you who can;t deny this proof, means you are wrong in your claim, and therefore its obvious that you lost the debate as till now you have;lnt provided any answer.

Thanks and Bye

[Wyvern]

No Sir, my prove is given already, its you who can;t deny this proof, means you are wrong in your claim, and therefore its obvious that you lost the debate as till now you have;lnt provided any answer.

Yes you have given your proof which has been refuted three times none of which have you even attempted to comment on. I can and have denied your proof as have two other people.

Please refer to posts 175-177 for refutations and denials of your argument none of which have been commented on by you.

[TrueReligion]

No Sir, my prove is given already, its you who can;t deny this proof, means you are wrong in your claim, and therefore its obvious that you lost the debate as till now you have;lnt provided any answer.

Yes you have given your proof which has been refuted three times none of which have you even attempted to comment on. I can and have denied your proof as have two other people.

Please refer to posts 175-177 for refutations and denials of your argument none of which have been commented on by you.

Wyvern, I gave my reply so many times, that I wil only answer the refutations, after you give me your answer. I never said that I wont answer the posts whch you mention, but only after your answer to my question. just give in yes or no, it wil be enough for me to move forward for those refutations

[Wyvern]

Wyvern, I gave my reply so many times, that I wil only answer the refutations, after you give me your answer. I never said that I wont answer the posts whch you mention, but only after your answer to my question. just give in yes or no, it wil be enough for me to move forward for those refutations

I have told you many times now that my thoughts on god can not be distilled down to a yes or no. I have also told you many times that you will only get said answer after you provide a medical website that states leeches are like embryos.

I understand if you can not answer the refutations though. Especially since it has been debunked so many times already on the web.

[TrueReligion]

Wyvern, I gave my reply so many times, that I wil only answer the refutations, after you give me your answer. I never said that I wont answer the posts whch you mention, but only after your answer to my question. just give in yes or no, it wil be enough for me to move forward for those refutations

I have told you many times now that my thoughts on god can not be distilled down to a yes or no. I have also told you many times that you will only get said answer after you provide a medical website that states leeches are like embryos.

I understand if you can not answer the refutations though. Especially since it has been debunked so many times already on the web.

Again, wats the reference of embryo here? we are not discussing embryo here Wyvern, please atleast once stay on topic.
You just have to answer yes or no, its quite simple, and I will answer the other questions related to existence of God. but till you dont give answer, its ofcourse unfair from your side, that you keep on asking questions, and not giving answers to questions asked from you.
Till now you have been unfair in all the posts, so its not going good anywhere. be fair you will get fair replies as well

[McCulloch]

I just went through the twenty-two pages of stuff in this debate. No one has yet attempted to answer the question for debate in the affirmative.

For those who may have missed it,

Quran is self-evident, yes very truly.

Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

It seems as though Paarsurrey, the one who made the original claim, has not been able to find the time to argue or support the claim that he has made. TrueReligion and Wyvern have been arguing about many things, Jinn, Satan, evolution, Arabic, leaches and such TrueReligion has been working very hard to fend of the attacks on the Quran by various unbelievers (myself included). But I could not find any postings supporting the assertion that the Quran is self-evident.

The debate seems to be hung up on the existence of God. One debater refuses to present evidence about the self-evident truth of the Quran, basing his refusal on the unwillingness of another debater to answer about his own belief in the existence of God. As far as I can see that refusal is unreasonable. Please remember that we are not just debating for the sake of the other debaters, but for the sake of the many readers, lurkers and debaters who may not be participating in this particular thread.

I, myself, personally don't believe that there is a God. Starting from that point, please show me how the Quran is self-evidently true.

Otseng does believe that there is a God, but does not believe that the Quran is necessarily true. Starting from that point, please show him that the Quran is self-evidently true.

Whatever you do, please stop this "I'm not going to make my point until you answer my question" nonsense.

[TrueReligion]

I just went through the twenty-two pages of stuff in this debate. No one has yet attempted to answer the question for debate in the affirmative.

For those who may have missed it,

Quran is self-evident, yes very truly.

Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

It seems as though Paarsurrey, the one who made the original claim, has not been able to find the time to argue or support the claim that he has made. TrueReligion and Wyvern have been arguing about many things, Jinn, Satan, evolution, Arabic, leaches and such TrueReligion has been working very hard to fend of the attacks on the Quran by various unbelievers (myself included). But I could not find any postings supporting the assertion that the Quran is self-evident.

The debate seems to be hung up on the existence of God. One debater refuses to present evidence about the self-evident truth of the Quran, basing his refusal on the unwillingness of another debater to answer about his own belief in the existence of God. As far as I can see that refusal is unreasonable. Please remember that we are not just debating for the sake of the other debaters, but for the sake of the many readers, lurkers and debaters who may not be participating in this particular thread.

I, myself, personally don't believe that there is a God. Starting from that point, please show me how the Quran is self-evidently true.

Otseng does believe that there is a God, but does not believe that the Quran is necessarily true. Starting from that point, please show him that the Quran is self-evidently true.

Whatever you do, please stop this "I'm not going to make my point until you answer my question" nonsense.

There are 2 different visions to be answered for what you asked.
1 is if some1 dont believe in God, show him how Quran is true , and God reveled it
2 is if some1 believe in God, but dont believe in Quran that its true and is from God.

Both of thse require different explanation and debate..

I wil however reply to only 1st one, as it will be more general, rest for 2nd one, I should know the beleief of person to discuss with.

I can give you link to read about it, and discuss here later on, but if your mind is to attack Islam and Quran, whatever proof I will give, it wont be of any use,
If you read it with Open Mind, its a different view of reading. So I hope that being a neutral debater and open heart and mind person, you will read the link with a good vision.

http://www.mathmiracle.com/html/the-proof.php

Other, we can discuss on the following as well.

Believe in God is the most important thing in faith. If someone does not believe that God exists then he is in deep astray.


Does God exist? We have never seen God. We have never talked with God. That is why the Atheists believe God does not exist. It is just a fantasy or a made up thing!


The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist


There is one story of a Scholar and an Atheist. Long ago an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions are: “Does God exist?� and “If God exists then where is God?�


Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.


The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, then the scholar showed up.


“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain is so heavy so the river floods. The bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God suddenly there was a big tree fell down. Then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river,� said the scholar.


The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself with no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?�


The villagers were laughing out loud.


After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?


Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement.


“Then answer my second question,� said the Atheist. “If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?� The Atheist thought since he cannot see God then God does not exist.


The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hardly so the Atheist felt so much pain.


“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful�


The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?�


“The pain is here,� the Atheist pointed his cheek.


“No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?� asked the scholar to the villagers.


The villagers said, “No!�


“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.� Said the scholar.


The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.


How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?


We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exist.


How many things in the sky that billions light years away, even trillions light years away that could not be seen by people yet the things exist?


How many molecular things even nucleus (hair divided in millions) that cannot be seen by people yet exist? People could only see those things by using a very powerful microscope.


How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?


Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.


The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.


If to sense the creatures of God, sometimes people could not do it, even more to sense the Creator: God!


The Universe, Who is its Creator?


It is hard to proof that God exists. But if we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!


If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.


The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.


Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away! Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.


Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!


That is the greatness of Allah’s creation! If we believe in the magnificence of Allah’s creation, then we should believe in the magnificence of Allah.


In the Quran Allah explains that He is the creator of Heaven, Star, Sun, Moon, and others:


“Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!� [Quran 25:61]


Is there a Controller of the Universe?


There are millions of people controlling the traffic on road, sea, and air. Beacons are built. People also build traffic light and radar. Air Traffic Control is built to prevent accident. All vehicles have drivers. Even on airplane there are pilot and co-pilot to make the flight safer. On the ships there are Captain, navigator, and engineers. Yet thousands of accidents happen every year on land, sea, and air. Even though there are many controllers, the accidents still happen.


On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash. Most scientists believe that the Earth, Sun, and all of the other planets and moons in the solar system formed about 4.6 billion years ago. For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon. There is no mark, police, nor pilots to drive them. Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen. Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.


“He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge� [Quran 10:5]


“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit� [Quran:40]

.

People who think a lot about universe insha Allah will believe that there is a God!


“Allah it is who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.� [Quran 13:2]


“Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire� [Quran 3:191]


Who is the Creator of People and Plants?


To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God, Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?


“Have ye seen that which ye emit?

Do ye create it or are We the creator?� [Quran 56:58-59]


“Have ye seen that which ye cultivate?

Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer?� [Quran 56:63-64]


“Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower?� [Quran 56:72]


Can Men Create a Fly?


In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:


“…Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!� [Quran 22:73]


There are many other Quran verses that describe the existence of God and God is the All Wise Creator

[Wyvern]

http://www.mathmiracle.com/html/the-proof.php

After reading this site I can't help but wonder if you believe Dr. Khalifa is gods messenger of the covenant. I know it is off topic and you do not have to answer but the implications are enormous in that he states all the worlds religions will die away to be replaced with a single world religion.