Proof The Quran Is True

[JoeyKnothead]

Let's examine the Quran and see if it can be proven to be the actual word of Allah, or prove the existence of Allah.

muhammad rasullah has offered some evidence, that if proven correct, to me at least would be very powerful proof for the Quran's claims...

So what you are searching for is proof that the knowledge in the quran man could not have come up with himself. Okay I will consent to that.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
How could this have been known at the time of the prophet over 1400 years ago? It is there and science has proven this a a fact. So now you have to answer the question in a reasonable and logical way with proof as to where else this knowledge could've come from? considering that knowone knew this to be true.
The link is given and you can read more about it yourself...

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html
_________________
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem "In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful"

[Goat]

He didn't want to defend it I guess.

I have defended it..
Do you accept the proof I have given you?
Since this is a scientifically known fact which science with all its technology and resources have just come to know within the 100 years maybe less than that. My question then is how could the Prophet (pbuh) have known this information? There was no technology at the time and no resources for him to come to this conclusion. He could not read nor write not even his own name. his statement is true when he says he is the messenger of Allah.

If you believe he is not then you would have to account for where he could've got this knowledge.

It has been pointed out that , when going back into the original translation, that the translation is purposely incorrect. This new 'interpretation' didn't come out until the scientific knowledge came out, and there were other translations previous to the scientific knowledge that held sway before that.

One might ask why the sudden change in translation after something is known scientifically? Is it to sway the ignorant and the easily convinced?

What do you mean it has been pointed out? By who? Listen the arabic hasn't changed at all translation may have become more precise and clearer but the arabic hasn't changed at all, it's always said the same thing. What is an original translation? I'm really not concerned with that because that is merely their opinion of what they believe the arabic means according to their understanding. So Someone may come along with a better understanding thus a better translation. But as I stated before the arabic has not changed at all this is why I am referring back to the original language "Arabic".

Now your claim is that this translation of the arabic was not there before science found that the earth was expanding. That's a bold claim, don't know how you would prove that you'd have to find a quran that was translated before that discovery and show that verse. But like I said even if you did That would not prove your case as I stated before, if ever this is a misunderstanding about the translation of the quran we refer back to the arabic.
Therefore you'd have to prove to me what I have given you is not what the arabic in the verse means..
Do that and you'll be successful!

Well, the arabic has not changed. However, that alternate translation was not given until after the BB theory was common. I am sorry, but it is you that do not understand.

I will give you a challenge. Find me a translation that is from before 1950 that has the translation you claim .

Listen you can't throw your claim on me that's supposed to be your job since you say that it was changed in the translation. you prove that it was changed. I said the arabic in the quran hasn't changed which you agreed to. So why do I have to prove a translation was their when I have just proven the arabic was. Makes no sense...Since the arabic hasn't changed that means it was always there. Meaning it always said the universe is expanding which science recently found after the fact.
You really just agreed it was always there by agreeing that the arabic hasn't changed.
I'm not arguing translations because those are man's iInterpretation of the Allah's word. I go to what Allah says.

I have pointed out sources that say other works have shown it to have different translations.

As for what allah says.. well, the entire Koran was written by fallible man, and obviously you are pulling the same claim that the 'infallible' bible christians are doing. It is wrong when they say it about hte bible, and it is wrong when you claim it with the Koran.

Dishonesty, yoru name is 'fundie'
'

[JoeyKnothead]

He didn't want to defend it I guess.

I have defended it..
Do you accept the proof I have given you?
Since this is a scientifically known fact which science with all its technology and resources have just come to know within the 100 years maybe less than that. My question then is how could the Prophet (pbuh) have known this information? There was no technology at the time and no resources for him to come to this conclusion. He could not read nor write not even his own name. his statement is true when he says he is the messenger of Allah.

If you believe he is not then you would have to account for where he could've got this knowledge.

It has been pointed out that , when going back into the original translation, that the translation is purposely incorrect. This new 'interpretation' didn't come out until the scientific knowledge came out, and there were other translations previous to the scientific knowledge that held sway before that.

One might ask why the sudden change in translation after something is known scientifically? Is it to sway the ignorant and the easily convinced?

What do you mean it has been pointed out? By who? Listen the arabic hasn't changed at all translation may have become more precise and clearer but the arabic hasn't changed at all, it's always said the same thing. What is an original translation? I'm really not concerned with that because that is merely their opinion of what they believe the arabic means according to their understanding. So Someone may come along with a better understanding thus a better translation. But as I stated before the arabic has not changed at all this is why I am referring back to the original language "Arabic".

Now your claim is that this translation of the arabic was not there before science found that the earth was expanding. That's a bold claim, don't know how you would prove that you'd have to find a quran that was translated before that discovery and show that verse. But like I said even if you did That would not prove your case as I stated before, if ever this is a misunderstanding about the translation of the quran we refer back to the arabic.
Therefore you'd have to prove to me what I have given you is not what the arabic in the verse means..
Do that and you'll be successful!

I can accept that the Quran points to an expanding universe. I still see it as open to interpretation. I'm not trying to be 'legalistic' here, but I honestly see that passage in several ways.
In my learning and understanding man's history and all that entails, I see nothing more in this passage than man's wonderment at the universe.
We can think of the universe/sky 'expanding' as we try to scan across the sky, I'm sure ancient folks had the same 'difficulty'. I don't think it unreasonable to think the Quran writers were aware of the three dimensional aspect of the universe, and would rightly (and as humans) conclude the universe 'expands away' from Earth.
Are there passages that tell us something about the nature of this universe? Something in there that points to the 'laws' of nature that the Quran writers could not have 'just known'? I'm thinking mathematical or other verifiable proofs.

[muhammad rasullah]

He didn't want to defend it I guess.

I have defended it..
Do you accept the proof I have given you?
Since this is a scientifically known fact which science with all its technology and resources have just come to know within the 100 years maybe less than that. My question then is how could the Prophet (pbuh) have known this information? There was no technology at the time and no resources for him to come to this conclusion. He could not read nor write not even his own name. his statement is true when he says he is the messenger of Allah.

If you believe he is not then you would have to account for where he could've got this knowledge.

It has been pointed out that , when going back into the original translation, that the translation is purposely incorrect. This new 'interpretation' didn't come out until the scientific knowledge came out, and there were other translations previous to the scientific knowledge that held sway before that.

One might ask why the sudden change in translation after something is known scientifically? Is it to sway the ignorant and the easily convinced?

What do you mean it has been pointed out? By who? Listen the arabic hasn't changed at all translation may have become more precise and clearer but the arabic hasn't changed at all, it's always said the same thing. What is an original translation? I'm really not concerned with that because that is merely their opinion of what they believe the arabic means according to their understanding. So Someone may come along with a better understanding thus a better translation. But as I stated before the arabic has not changed at all this is why I am referring back to the original language "Arabic".

Now your claim is that this translation of the arabic was not there before science found that the earth was expanding. That's a bold claim, don't know how you would prove that you'd have to find a quran that was translated before that discovery and show that verse. But like I said even if you did That would not prove your case as I stated before, if ever this is a misunderstanding about the translation of the quran we refer back to the arabic.
Therefore you'd have to prove to me what I have given you is not what the arabic in the verse means..
Do that and you'll be successful!

Well, the arabic has not changed. However, that alternate translation was not given until after the BB theory was common. I am sorry, but it is you that do not understand.

I will give you a challenge. Find me a translation that is from before 1950 that has the translation you claim .

Listen you can't throw your claim on me that's supposed to be your job since you say that it was changed in the translation. you prove that it was changed. I said the arabic in the quran hasn't changed which you agreed to. So why do I have to prove a translation was their when I have just proven the arabic was. Makes no sense...Since the arabic hasn't changed that means it was always there. Meaning it always said the universe is expanding which science recently found after the fact.
You really just agreed it was always there by agreeing that the arabic hasn't changed.
I'm not arguing translations because those are man's iInterpretation of the Allah's word. I go to what Allah says.

I have pointed out sources that say other works have shown it to have different translations.

As for what allah says.. well, the entire Koran was written by fallible man, and obviously you are pulling the same claim that the 'infallible' bible christians are doing. It is wrong when they say it about hte bible, and it is wrong when you claim it with the Koran.

Dishonesty, yoru name is 'fundie'
'

Wow really! So you make a claim about the different translations then want me to prove your claim. I gave you the correct translation of the verse and since you say this is wrong I told you to prove that is not what the arabic means. Then you ask me to show you a translation from before 1950 to try and prove the translation I gave you was always there. Which makes no sense since you already agreed that the arabic hasn't changed. So since the arabic hasn't changed and you agreed then like I said you prove from the arabic that the translation I gave was incorrect.

If you tell me something in arabic, or spanish and I translate what you said along with three others into english and we all use different words to translate what you meant. If another person comes along and wants to know precisely what you said they should go back to the person who initially said it.
The same thing here. What people think you mean from their understanding may change but what you said doesn't. Prove to me from the arabic that my translation is wrong since the arabic has never changed.
Don't discredit the quran as being from Allah just because you can't prove it wrong. That obviously shows limitations on your part not Allah. And if Muhammad (pbuh) is so infallible then prove what he said to be wrong! Not what a translation says. This should be easy right

[muhammad rasullah]

He didn't want to defend it I guess.

I have defended it..
Do you accept the proof I have given you?
Since this is a scientifically known fact which science with all its technology and resources have just come to know within the 100 years maybe less than that. My question then is how could the Prophet (pbuh) have known this information? There was no technology at the time and no resources for him to come to this conclusion. He could not read nor write not even his own name. his statement is true when he says he is the messenger of Allah.

If you believe he is not then you would have to account for where he could've got this knowledge.

It has been pointed out that , when going back into the original translation, that the translation is purposely incorrect. This new 'interpretation' didn't come out until the scientific knowledge came out, and there were other translations previous to the scientific knowledge that held sway before that.

One might ask why the sudden change in translation after something is known scientifically? Is it to sway the ignorant and the easily convinced?

What do you mean it has been pointed out? By who? Listen the arabic hasn't changed at all translation may have become more precise and clearer but the arabic hasn't changed at all, it's always said the same thing. What is an original translation? I'm really not concerned with that because that is merely their opinion of what they believe the arabic means according to their understanding. So Someone may come along with a better understanding thus a better translation. But as I stated before the arabic has not changed at all this is why I am referring back to the original language "Arabic".

Now your claim is that this translation of the arabic was not there before science found that the earth was expanding. That's a bold claim, don't know how you would prove that you'd have to find a quran that was translated before that discovery and show that verse. But like I said even if you did That would not prove your case as I stated before, if ever this is a misunderstanding about the translation of the quran we refer back to the arabic.
Therefore you'd have to prove to me what I have given you is not what the arabic in the verse means..
Do that and you'll be successful!

I can accept that the Quran points to an expanding universe. I still see it as open to interpretation. I'm not trying to be 'legalistic' here, but I honestly see that passage in several ways.
In my learning and understanding man's history and all that entails, I see nothing more in this passage than man's wonderment at the universe.
We can think of the universe/sky 'expanding' as we try to scan across the sky, I'm sure ancient folks had the same 'difficulty'. I don't think it unreasonable to think the Quran writers were aware of the three dimensional aspect of the universe, and would rightly (and as humans) conclude the universe 'expands away' from Earth.
Are there passages that tell us something about the nature of this universe? Something in there that points to the 'laws' of nature that the Quran writers could not have 'just known'? I'm thinking mathematical or other verifiable proofs.

What is more verifiable than this. The statement from the quran is not given to lead one to believe it is wonderment at the universe. It very clearly says "and it is we who are steadily expanding it" Very clear if you ask me. But if you ask for another proof from the quran I will give you another.

The seas not mixing together

This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.60

It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an.

25:53 And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I'm not an arabic expert but the arabic word is transliterated as Wasiaa
وَس�عَ
Doesn't appear in the verse 51:47 The word is لَم�وس�ع�ونَ lamoosiAAoona.

ROOT word. Surely you know that ‘Arabi builds its words on triconsonantal root words which it can then use to mean all sorts of other things? The root is right there in the word that appears in 51:47. You want a great resource for the Qur’ân in reference to root words, occurrences of words in other passages, and multiple translations? Try this site: http://www.openburhan.net/

If you click on the hyperlink for a specific verse it will give you that ayat in great detail, including more than a dozen translations (some of them fanciful, but those are clearly marked in red). Cross reference the names of the translators with a google and amazon/wikipedia search to determine the year of the translation… and funnily enough only SOME of the post–1950 translations say allah is ‘steadily expanding’ the universe. None of the pre–1950 ones do!

[muhammad rasullah]

I'm not an arabic expert but the arabic word is transliterated as Wasiaa
وَس�عَ
Doesn't appear in the verse 51:47 The word is لَم�وس�ع�ونَ lamoosiAAoona.

ROOT word. Surely you know that ‘Arabi builds its words on triconsonantal root words which it can then use to mean all sorts of other things? The root is right there in the word that appears in 51:47. You want a great resource for the Qur’ân in reference to root words, occurrences of words in other passages, and multiple translations? Try this site: http://www.openburhan.net/

If you click on the hyperlink for a specific verse it will give you that ayat in great detail, including more than a dozen translations (some of them fanciful, but those are clearly marked in red). Cross reference the names of the translators with a google and amazon/wikipedia search to determine the year of the translation… and funnily enough only SOME of the post–1950 translations say allah is ‘steadily expanding’ the universe. None of the pre–1950 ones do!

We can continue to go back and forth about what the word means or should be translated as but as I stated before Extend, spread and expand are just synonyms of one another. And it really doesn't change the meaning of the verse which I quoted 51:47. If you were to put either word in its place it doesn't take away nor change the meaning of the verse, neither doesn't negate the fact that the universe is expanding, extending or spreading. So this still doesn't disprove the quran in any way.

[Goat]

I'm not an arabic expert but the arabic word is transliterated as Wasiaa
وَس�عَ
Doesn't appear in the verse 51:47 The word is لَم�وس�ع�ونَ lamoosiAAoona.

ROOT word. Surely you know that ‘Arabi builds its words on triconsonantal root words which it can then use to mean all sorts of other things? The root is right there in the word that appears in 51:47. You want a great resource for the Qur’ân in reference to root words, occurrences of words in other passages, and multiple translations? Try this site: http://www.openburhan.net/

If you click on the hyperlink for a specific verse it will give you that ayat in great detail, including more than a dozen translations (some of them fanciful, but those are clearly marked in red). Cross reference the names of the translators with a google and amazon/wikipedia search to determine the year of the translation… and funnily enough only SOME of the post–1950 translations say allah is ‘steadily expanding’ the universe. None of the pre–1950 ones do!

We can continue to go back and forth about what the word means or should be translated as but as I stated before Extend, spread and expand are just synonyms of one another. And it really doesn't change the meaning of the verse which I quoted 51:47. If you were to put either word in its place it doesn't take away nor change the meaning of the verse, neither doesn't negate the fact that the universe is expanding, extending or spreading. So this still doesn't disprove the quran in any way.

They have similarities, but it all depends on context.

So, no, you are not quite right. Not when it at least comes to the English.

[muhammad rasullah]

I'm not an arabic expert but the arabic word is transliterated as Wasiaa
وَس�عَ
Doesn't appear in the verse 51:47 The word is لَم�وس�ع�ونَ lamoosiAAoona.

ROOT word. Surely you know that ‘Arabi builds its words on triconsonantal root words which it can then use to mean all sorts of other things? The root is right there in the word that appears in 51:47. You want a great resource for the Qur’ân in reference to root words, occurrences of words in other passages, and multiple translations? Try this site: http://www.openburhan.net/

If you click on the hyperlink for a specific verse it will give you that ayat in great detail, including more than a dozen translations (some of them fanciful, but those are clearly marked in red). Cross reference the names of the translators with a google and amazon/wikipedia search to determine the year of the translation… and funnily enough only SOME of the post–1950 translations say allah is ‘steadily expanding’ the universe. None of the pre–1950 ones do!

We can continue to go back and forth about what the word means or should be translated as but as I stated before Extend, spread and expand are just synonyms of one another. And it really doesn't change the meaning of the verse which I quoted 51:47. If you were to put either word in its place it doesn't take away nor change the meaning of the verse, neither doesn't negate the fact that the universe is expanding, extending or spreading. So this still doesn't disprove the quran in any way.

They have similarities, but it all depends on context.

So, no, you are not quite right. Not when it at least comes to the English.

Looks like your having trouble admitting that the quran is true from what I have shown you. So I'm right when it comes to the arabic since you agreed that the arabic hasn't changed.
Translations are a mere choice of words of what they understand the arabic to be saying. So someone can have a better or different translation but it still does not change what the arabic says. It would be easier if you would just admit that this is true.

[ahmd]

THE QURAN

[Yusuf Estes]


Quran Means "Recitation"

The word "Quran" means "that which is recited; or that which is dictated in memory form." As such, it is not a book, nor is it something that reaches us only in written form. The documentation in writting about the Quran has been preserved in museums thoughout the world, including the Topekopi Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, the museum in Tashkent, Uzbekistan and also in England. Keep in mind also, the Quran is only considered "Quran" while it is in the recitation form, not in the written or the book form. The word for what is written and held in the hand to be read by the eye is called "mus-haf" (meaning script or that which is written down).

Only One Version - Arabic

There are no different versions of the Quran in the Arabic language, only different translations and of course, none of these would be considered to hold the value and authenticity of the original Arabic Recitation. The Quran is divided up into 30 equal parts, called "Juz'" (parts) in the Arabic language. These are learned by Muslims from their very early beginnings as children.


Memorized by Millions - Entirely

The important thing to keep in mind about the Quran is the memorization and transmission of the actual "Rectiation" just as it came to Muhammad, peace be upon him, from the Angel Gabriel and was learned and memorized by his companions and they in turn, passed it down to their followers and continued in this way until we see today, over 10,000,000 (ten million) Muslims who have committed the entire Quran to memory. This is not a small feat. After all, how many other works of literary value have been memorized and passed down through so many generations, in the original language, without a single change in even one sentence?

Each Muslim Has "Quran" Memorized

All Muslims have memorzied a portion of the Quran in the Arabic language, as this is an important part of their daily prayers. Many Muslims have memorized large portions of the Quran from one tenth to one half to all of the entire Quran, and all in the original Arabic language. It should be noted, there are over one and a half billion (1,500,000,000) Muslims worldwide and only about 10% are Arab, all the rest are learing the Quran in Arabic as a second language.


God Speaks in First Person to Mankind in Quran

The Quran contains clear statements from Almighty God (Allah) and it is Him speaking to all of us in the first person. He tells of us our own creation, the creation of all that is the universe and what has happened to those before us and what is to become of us if we do not take heed of the warnings clearly spelled out in His Revelation. He speaks also to Muhammad, peace be upon him, to show that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not making this up himself and even chastises Muhammad, peace be upon him, for making human assumptions rather than waiting for revelation in matters (ie.; surah At-Tahreem and surah Abasa).


Quran Mentions Itself

The Quran refers to itself as "The Quran" (The Recitation) and mentions that it is to all mankind and jinn (another creation of Allah, similar to humans in that they could make choices as to whether or not they would obey God's Commandments, and they existed before humans).


Quran Describes God's Nature Exactly


The Quran is clear on who God is and who He is not. There is no room left for doubt after reading the Quran in the Arabic languge: God is One. He is the only Creator, Sustainer and Owner of the Universe. He has no partners. He has no relatives; wives, children or offspring. He is not like His creation and He does not need it for His existance, while all the time the creation is totally dependent on Him. His attributes are clearly spelled out as the epitome of each and every one. He is for instance, the All-Knowing; the All-Hearing; the All-Seeing; the All-Forgiving; the All- Loving; the All-Merciful; the Only One God. There is never a contradiction to this found anywhere in the Quran.


Quran Challanges Readers

The Quran makes the clear challange, that if you are in doubt about it - then bring a book like it. Also, to bring ten chapters like it and then finally, to bring one single chapter like it. 1,400 years - and no one has been able to duplicate it's beauty, recitation, miracles and ease of memorization. Another challange for the unbelievers to consider; "If this (Quran) were from other than Allah, you would find within it many contradictions." And yet, another challange offered by Allah in the Quran is for the unbelievers to look around for evidences. Allah says He will show them His signs within themselves and on the farthest horizons.


Scientific Miracles in Quran


The scientific miracles of the Quran could not have been understood at that time, yet today we take for granted the many things included in the revelation of the Quran. Some include mentioning: The formation of embryo in the womb of the mother (surah 98); deep seas partitions; waters that do not mix; clouds and how they make rain and how lightning is caused by ice crystals; formation of the earth's mountains deep underground; orbits of planets and stars and moons - and even the mention of space travel (surah 55:33).


Watch videos of world's top scientists commenting on the " Miracle of Science in Quran "


http://www.scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php

References :

Bible Compared to Quran

http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

…your point being?