Judaism debate, continued

[cnorman18]

Are you nuts? There isn't a Jew on Earth that doesn't recognize the difference between ethnic and religious Jews. What I am saying is that they are all Jews, and all part of the community. It may be due to centuries of persecution, or to being a tiny minority in a Gentile world; but we stick together, and we don't reject each other because we have different beliefs or none at all. The commitment is to the community, not to the religion, and especially not to any particular take on theology.

Make up your mind already. First you say that in order to be a part of the Jewish community....

Stop right there. No, I didn't. I said that to BECOME part of the Jewish community, i.e., to CONVERT to Judaism, one had to do those things (at which we will take a closer look presently). Born Jews don't, and I have made that clear too.

...you have to follow rituals...

Which are not relevant to theological beliefs.

...be tested....

Wrong word, but let it go. One must confirm one's commitment to the community, not to a particular theology. I've made that quite clear too.

...and be accepted by the community.

Through the process and ritual of conversion.

Ethnic Jews certainly don't have to do that

I never said they did. All that is relevant only to conversion, not to bring born Jewish.

and atheist and humanist Jews most certainly do nothing of the sort, yet they are still Jews.

Correct. Which is what I said.

You got backed into a corner so you're changing your tune, now anyone who is an ethnic Jew is magically part of this community whether they acknowledge or care about the community or not.

Also correct, but I have not "changed my tune." I have said that from the beginning.

Whether they care about the community is irrelevant. The community cares about them.

Those Jews who do not care about the community do not, in any case, generally identify themselves as Jews, which renders the point rather moot.

Like it or not, there are plenty of ethnic Jews who don't give a damn about your so-called "Jewish community", but you're trying desperately to use the term, just like some people try to use "black community" to imply strength in numbers and a powerful voting block where none really exists. You, and by that I don't mean to single you out, there are plenty who do the same thing, simply declare that all Jews are part of a community so you can say "look at how many of us there are". That doesn't fly.

Attributing motivation again. Sorry, that won't work. For starters, there IS a Jewish community which is acknowledged by virtually all Jews. Even Humanistic (that is, atheistic) Judaism requires a course in Jewish culture and community for conversion (which they term "adoption" into the community) and has a ceremony of formal welcoming.

Second, since Jews number about 1-1/2% of the world's population, "look at how many of us there are" isn't likely to be our motivation for doing anything. You are rather obviously making this up as you go along.

Incidentally, attributing "desperation" to one's opponent, in my experience, is a pretty sure sign that one is desperate oneself. I do not say that you are. It's just an observation.

I'm rather confident in the factuality and truth of what I'm saying, as it happens. If you want sources to back it up, I can give you a few dozen right now. All I have to do is Google "Jewish community" or "Judaism."

Just for laughs: Do YOU have any sources or authorities or references or anything to back up your totally baseless, unsupported and entirely personal opinions here?

I have never said any such thing. Look through my posts, all of them, 188 threads so far. I have always said that Judaism is pluralistic, and I have never said anything else.

Yet right here you're trying to claim there is a single Jewish community when there's nothing of the sort. There are many, many so-called communities, many beliefs, many ideas, etc. Judiasm is just as fragmented in it's thinking as Christianity is, Jews are just as diverse as any other ethnic group.

Judaism is a pluralistic community. Why is that so hard for you?

Want a higher authority that declares all Jews, of whatever belief, ethnicity, or whatever to be a single community? How about the state of Israel?

Anyone who is a Jew with any of the characteristics you list above may claim the Right of Return and be accepted as a citizen of Israel. Religious, atheist, ethnic, convert, whatever. Israeli Jews include all of those. Israel is by any meaningful definition a "community," and every Jew on Earth, regardless of theology or ethnicity, is a potential member of it and thus part of the larger community of Jews. We may argue and fight among ourselves, but even the odd cults that hold themselves separate acknowledge that other Jews are Jews and part of that larger community.

In short, you are spouting your own ideas and definitions and ignoring what Jews actually teach, believe and practice as matters of actual fact.

Perhaps you'd care to cite a source that explicitly says otherwise.

You can't post a list of criteria for being a Jew any more than you can post a list of criteria for being a Christian....

Sorry, I can and have. A Jew is one who has (1) been born to a Jewish mother (among some Reform Jews, mother or father), or (2) been through a process and ceremony of conversion. Simple. Theology is irrelevant.

It's a matter of record. Again, if you want multiple references, I will be most happy to give them.

....both groups have massive variations in their beliefs, no matter what your rabbi friend might think, a Jew is not a Jew.

Variations in belief are not only found among the branches but within them. Judaism is pluralistic. Period.

Interesting that you feel free to overrule and negate the view of a rabbi. From where comes YOUR authority to do so? Where were you trained and ordained? Or do you claim such pontifical authority simply on your own hook?

Wrong again. Judaism as an institution and a community unquestionably does include religion, but one does not have to participate or believe in that aspect of it to be a Jew. What's so hard about that? If that wasn't true, there could be no such thing as a "secular Jew" in the first place. In the same way, ethnicity is sn aspect of Judaism too; and though I participate in the religious aspect, I am not ethnically Jewish; still, I am recognized as a real Jew.

Oh, playing the old No True Scotsman fallacy, hmmm?

How am I doing that? Explain.

That fallacy is exclusive in nature and intent. The nature of Judaism is inclusive. Nice try.

"Secular Jew" isn't a title, it's a description, the same as "secular black", "secular Eskimo" or whatever. One is a Jew the moment one pops out of the womb, it has nothing whatsoever to do with one's beliefs.

Just I said. That is one way, and the most common one, to be Jewish.

Since one cannot change one's ethnicity, the only way to convert to Judaism is by way of the religious aspect; but even then, there are no specific theological beliefs prescribed. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I've proven that over and over, and even proved that taking the Torah literally raises eyebrows when one is converting to Conservative Judaism. Nobody tells you what you have to believe.

And since one cannot change one's ethnicity, you need to specify that you're only talking about RELIGIOUS Judiasm and stop pretending that Judiasm, all of the various and disparate meanings thereof, are all the same or are even related.

Are you actually reading what I write? In a religious conversion, one is not taught a particular theology, and the commitment is to the people, not to any such set of beliefs. I've said that more than once, but it doesn't seem to have sunk in.

One is taught much about Jewish culture, about the various and diverse groups of Jews around the world, and about Jewish history; on theology, one is given a brief introduction to a few of the various schools of thought, and little more. All that is left to the individual believer. Theology is optional; community is not.

I have never said that all of the "various and disparate meanings" of Judaism are "all the same." Related, they inarguably are. If they aren't, how come they can all become Israelis?

That's like saying that all blacks have to be Southern Baptists, just because a lot of them are. There is no inherent link between being black and being a Southern Baptist, any more than there is an inherent link between being ethnically Jewish and following the Jewish religion, or even having any respect whatsoever for the Jewish culture. You're insisting on links that simply don't exist.

No, YOU are insisting that I've said things I haven't.

I restate your analogy as a direct statement: "You are saying that all Jews have to be religious Jews, just because a lot of them are."

I have never said any such thing.

Do you think that belief is based on the Torah? I've already dealt with that, and you're ignoring it. Again.

You've said that it's based on a lot of other writings as well and the same question applies to them. You're still not answering the question.

Reeeeally? Where did I say that the belief in God is based on any documents?

You keep talking about "answering the question," anrd "the same question," but you seem to have a hard time making that question clear.

Are you talking about belief in God? Authority on ethical matters? On theological matters? The "reason for the religion," as you have said elsewhere? What?

Your original assertions had to do with Biblical literalism, and now you seem to be extending that (?) objection to "other writings." How does that issue relate to any of the above? Do you even know what you are supposedly trying to ask, or are you floundering as badly as it appears?

I see you finally take a run at it below. Let's see how well you do.

And what would those be? Judaism does not formally attribute any "characteristics" to God. Ein Sof. Unknowable. Remember?

Yet they still do. Things like... EXISTING.

Since there are branches where that belief is optional or nonexistent, that is itself debatable; but in any case, that belief is not founded on the Torah or any other document. The men who wrote the source documents of the Bible obviously believed, and they had none.

Caring about the Jewish people.

Whoops. Since 1945, that one is EXTREMELY debatable. A very poor choice.

Giving the Jewish people a stretch of worthless desert.

That is not an attribute, that is an action; and the passages where that is recorded are taken no more literally by modern Jews than any other. The founders of Israel were uniformly secular, for the record.

In any case--"Worthless"? How does that square with "caring about the Jewish people"?

It's an ancient joke that if God had really loved the Jews, He would have given us a land with some oil under it. Note my signature.

These are all things that many Jews think are accurate and true about God.

So what? As I said, none of them are formally attributed to God by the Jewish religion, proven by the fact that all are debatable.

There is no Jewish creed of any kind. The closest we have ever come to that is Maimonides's Thirteen Points, and every one of them has been and still is debated.

Do you mean LITERALLY, or not? Why don't you use that word any more? Have you realized that that won't fly?

You're really hung up on that word, aren't you? I don't use it because every time I do, you go into a binary "the whole Torah has to be completely and totally literal" or "we get to pick and choose whatever we want because we feel like it" and the answer is in the middle somewhere.

Sorry, that's a blatant falsehood and a lame excuse.

What I have said, and consistently, is that the issue of the literal truth of the Bible is, in Judaism, irrelevant. The "binary" you mention above is related to the false dichotomies that YOU presented.

If you're going to reject stories in the Torah like the creation story or the flood story or the burning bush story, then why not just reject the whole God concept?

Can you explain how that logically follows?

Can you explain what you mean by "rejected"? Don't bother--you are obviously talking about literal, historical truth again, and not explaining why such "rejection" is tantamount to "discarding," which it isn't; nor dealing with the fact that the literal truth of those stories is neither accepted nor rejected in the first place, but held not to matter. Individual Jews may believe them or not, and nobody cares.

How many times have I explained this, and you're still beating that nonexistent drum?

You call ME unresponsive. I'm still trying to get you to explain and defend the points you tried to make when we started, and here you are just repeating them again and assuming them in your question!

You're the one who keeps insisting that your beliefs are logical and reasonable, yet every time I ask you to demonstrate how you logically or reasonably come to the conclusion that God exists, you change the subject.

Another falsehood. Your initial contention was that (1) belief in God depended on a literal reading of the Torah (or Bible), and (2) not reading any or all of the Torah (or Bible) amounted to "throwing it away."

By claiming that you're asking me to "demonstrate how I logically or reasonably come to the conclusion that God exists," YOU are changing the subject--which is rather easily proven: I have consistently and rather famously refused to play the game of 'Prove there is a God' since I first came to this forum.. If that had been your initial assertion, I would not have engaged.

We are still back where we started, Cephus. You have STILL not explained why a literal reading of Scripture is necessary to a belief in God, and you have STILL not explained why a NON-literal reading is equivalent to "throwing it out" in whole or in part. We have gotten precisely nowhere, because you can neither explain nor defend your original assertions!

It has not been a wholly unproductive conversation, though. We have learned much. About you, mostly.

We have learned that you have some entirely unsupported and factually wrong opinions about the existence of a Jewish community, some (again) entirely unsupported and factually wrong opinions about what defines a Jew, and some (yet again) entirely unsupported and factually wrong opinions about the teachings of the Jewish religion.

We have learned that you feel free to ignore facts that are repeatedly shown you and proven, that you feel free to ignore answers and cogent points and pretend they were never given nor made, that you are very quick with ad hominem and insult, but verrry slow to give references or cite sources--which is not surprising, because you clearly have none.

We have, perhaps above all, learned that you can claim authority to make pronouncements and pass judgments, not as your own opinion but as indisputable fact, on matters about which you know little or nothing--while simultaneously accusing others of doing that very thing on their own authority when that is clearly not the case. You even accuse others of being "antagonistic" when the only posts on this thread that fit that description are your own.

Would you care to start all over and try again, or are we done?

[Goat]

Ayah5768 wrote:

That basically sums it up! Well... except you could still come home to dinner. It's just your mom would say things like, "So you don't want to be Jewish any more? Wouldn't it have been easier if you just ran me over?"

I know I ain't supposed to laugh at sterotypes, and I apologize for doing so. Can there not be some understanding when someone laughs because something is just plain funny?

In my experience, the Jewish folks are the only ones who will laugh at themselves in public. I think this is testament to their confidence in their religion, and themselves. Seems the others will hoop and holler if you do anything that could be considered an offense. (prolly gotta include myself in this group)

I think it depends on where it is coming from. I mean, we tend to know when something is all in good fun.

Either way, Jewish mother guilt is a very real thing. My mother was only vaguely Jewish and I grew up with it! LOL.

Many of the Jewish attitudes can last for generations past being a observant Jew. And, humor and mother guilt are two of the more powerful ones.

[Ayah5768]

Here's my all-time favorite Jewish joke:

How many Jewish grandmothers does it take to change a light bulb?

None. "It's all right, dollink. I'll just sit in the dark...."

Mine so far is....

A Jewish man gets hit by a car. A paramedic asks "Are you comfortable?" The man replies "I make a good living."

[Ayah5768]

Ayah5768 wrote:

That basically sums it up! Well... except you could still come home to dinner. It's just your mom would say things like, "So you don't want to be Jewish any more? Wouldn't it have been easier if you just ran me over?"

I know I ain't supposed to laugh at sterotypes, and I apologize for doing so. Can there not be some understanding when someone laughs because something is just plain funny?

In my experience, the Jewish folks are the only ones who will laugh at themselves in public. I think this is testament to their confidence in their religion, and themselves. Seems the others will hoop and holler if you do anything that could be considered an offense. (prolly gotta include myself in this group)

I think it depends on where it is coming from. I mean, we tend to know when something is all in good fun.

Either way, Jewish mother guilt is a very real thing. My mother was only vaguely Jewish and I grew up with it! LOL.

Many of the Jewish attitudes can last for generations past being a observant Jew. And, humor and mother guilt are two of the more powerful ones.

We only skipped one generation, so I guess that is why I got a good Jewish mother.

[Cephus]

He certainly can, and he has done quite a good job. I thought that perhaps another voice would take some of the emotion out of it for those reading the thread.

Hey, I'm willing to talk to anyone, so long as this doesn't turn into a debate between cnorman18 and I, with lots of people simply explaining what he said.

That is because an ethnic Jew doesn't have to practice to be part of the "community" which I have described in my earlier post.

Then the question is, why are they part of this "community" at all? It really smacks of the Catholic tactic of claiming membership for anyone who has ever been a Catholic, whether they are today or not. It's only done to inflate their claimed numbers and it's a purely dishonest tactic. It implies defacto support for a cause when none exists.

Heck, take a personal example, some of my ancestors came from Sweden. The fact that I am, at least somewhere in my background, Swedish, does not make me part of the "Swedish community". I don't speak Swedish, outside of a few swear words taught to me by a great-great-grandmother many years ago, I don't support Sweden, nor am I interested in their politics, I don't follow any portion of the Swedish culture or ritual, except if some of it has become ingrained in other traditions that Americans follow. Just being born doesn't make me a part of the "community", but, at least in some sense for the purpose of the argument, I am Swedish. The same is true of Jews. Just being born doesn't make you a member of some mythical community, it does, however, make you Jewish.

Anyway, when talking about ethnicity what are we talking about if not genes? Ethnicity is based on a presumed common genealogy and why does your genealogy matter? ...

It only matters so long as you care about it. My aunt, before she died, was the family historian, she could tell you anything about our ancestors for centuries and centuries back. And you know something? I didn't give a damn about any of it. I still don't. I couldn't care less about the family tree back before I was personally involved and I suspect a lot of people, Jews included, feel the same way.

Doesn't stop them from being Jews though.

Us being a "big interconnected Jewish family" is a big part of being Jewish, though.

For you and those who think like you, perhaps. Let's not generalize and say it's true for everyone.

The interconnected Jewish family is something that I have experienced in various ways throughout my life.

It's something *YOU* have experienced, yet you insist that the experience is the same for everyone and that's a ridiculous claim. Joe Blow pops out of the womb Jewish, yet never self-identifies as a Jew, his parents don't self-identify as Jews, he's not going to have the same experience you did. Yet he's still a Jew.

Jews are ethnically similar. Here... from the dictionary. The relevant portions are in bold and my comments are in Red.

It doesn't apply to all Jews though. Not *ALL* Jews celebrate the same holidays, not *ALL* Jews have the same genetic heritage, not *ALL* Jews practice cultural, religious or traditional rituals. I think I've mentioned him before, but I have a friend who is Jewish, yet he wants nothing whatsoever to do with Judiasm. He's an atheist so he doesn't practice the religion, in fact he reviles it, he wants nothing to do with Israel, he wants nothing to do with anything Jewish whatsoever. Yet he's STILL A JEW!

First, we don't argue over who is wrong because there are layers to our belief and if our point can be laid out reasonably no Jew will tell us we are "wrong." It is not so black and white.

Heh, my friend the Jew will tell you that you're wrong, trust me.

Second, you have a tendency to say things that are not conducive to honest debate.

This debate started because cnorman18 said that his Judiasm was logical and rational and I challenged him on it. He has yet to back up his assertion. My only concern in this debate, indeed in any religious debate, is whether the religious claims are factually and demonstrably true. If they are not, then why the hell bother with them? That goes for Judiasm, that goes for Christianity, that goes for Islam, heck, it would go for Pastafarianism if I could find someone who actually thought it was true. I've even challenged a Jedi on their so-called beliefs.

Lets not forget that you come here for, I'm sure, many reasons and at least one of those is to talk to people who disagree with you.

Actually, it's not simply to talk to people who disagree, it's to see who is actually right. Religious people make lots of claims, none of which, at least so far, can be validated logically or evidentually. The simple fact is that of all the world's religions, there is only one, at most, that can possibly be true, considering how many of them make contradictory claims. The very real possibility is that all of them are wrong and so far, that's precisely how it appears. No matter how strongly you believe in Judiasm as a religion, or Christianity as a religion, or Jedi as a religion, your beliefs are wasted if your beliefs aren't factually true.

The point is that this isn't about simply explaining what Judiasm is, in this day and age, if I wanted to know about a particular religion, there are plenty of online resources and I wouldn't need to come to a forum specifically for debate to do so. I want to know what you believe, why you believe it and why you think I should believe it too. If you don't think your arguments are convincing enough that I should accept them, then you probably shouldn't either.

To that end, you should probably try to use language that is not so quick to shut the other person down and make an otherwise nice person want to say things to you that could probably get them thrown off the boards.

It's amazing how many people go off the deep end because someone insults their religion. Religion, whether you want to believe it or not, is not a sacred cow that cannot be challenged or insulted and anyone who immediately takes personal offense because something they believe is attacked probably doesn't have a healthy outlook on their beliefs to begin with.

He has yet to be reluctant to respond to anything you have asked.

Sure he has, I keep asking how *HE* makes the determination what in the Torah is reliable and what is not and all he can do is point to tradition and "wise old Jewish men". Sorry, that's the argument from authority, a logical fallacy. Just because someone you want to label "wise" says something doesn't mean it's accurate, there are lots of "wise old men" who believed the Earth was flat. They were wrong. If all you're going to do is rely on tradition and authority, that's a sure sign that you've never bothered to think about things for yourself, you're just being led around by the nose.

In fact, "supernatural" discussion is rarely heard in a synagogue.

Depends on what you want to consider supernatural, I suppose. Jews believe in a god, that is, by definition, supernatural. If you want to throw away the god belief, why bother offering prayers? What are you praying to? Why bother observing religious holidays that refer specifically to supernatural events? If you throw out the supernatural, you don't have a religion at all, you've got a philosophy.

Once again, you are basing an argument on your very clear understanding of other religions and an equally as clear lack of understanding of Judaism.

I keep saying that if he wants to consider other writings, simply apply my questions to those as well, they remain good questions to ask. There has to be some source for your beliefs, you don't just wake up one morning and decide that the Giant Gigglesnort created the universe, you have to be introduced to that concept. Every religion gives their god characteristics, I'm asking where you get those characteristics? How do you know what your god is like? How do you know your god is real? Where do you get your information? What do you base it on? How do you know that your information is true and accurate, or is it something you do because it makes you feel good and you don't care if it's actually true? These are essential questions, these are the first questions every theist should be asking, yet these are the ones that they all run from.

Do you not care if what you believe is a lie?

I believe that historically speaking my people followed certain laws because of an, at the very least, perceived covenant with God.

Well, they justified following certain laws with a claimed covenant with God at least. Historically, that may be very true, but primitive societies often did things that we view as absurd. Central American cultures ripped the still-beating hearts out of people to please their gods and their victims, brainwashed by the same kind of religious nonsense, meekly stood in line and waited for their fate. What I'm really interested in knowing is why you, living in the modern age, think the same thing is valid. Anyone who went for some heart-ripping today would be prosecuted for first degree murder, we know better now. Why should the beliefs of the Jews, or the Christians, or any other religious group, be viewed as true and valid in the modern world?

Whether there is a "factual" covenant which can be "demonstrated" is not for me to determine or prove.

It should be if you're at all concerned about the truth. That's really the problem, you're not.

And that's sad.

[Goat]

Here's my all-time favorite Jewish joke:

How many Jewish grandmothers does it take to change a light bulb?

None. "It's all right, dollink. I'll just sit in the dark...."

Mine so far is....

A Jewish man gets hit by a car. A paramedic asks "Are you comfortable?" The man replies "I make a good living."

A Jewish man gets two ties for his birthday, so, when he goes to Sabbath meal to his mothers house the next Friday, he decides to wear one.

His mother looks at the tie and says 'So what is the matter, didn't you like the other one?

[Ayah5768]

He certainly can, and he has done quite a good job. I thought that perhaps another voice would take some of the emotion out of it for those reading the thread.

Hey, I'm willing to talk to anyone, so long as this doesn't turn into a debate between cnorman18 and I, with lots of people simply explaining what he said.

That is because an ethnic Jew doesn't have to practice to be part of the "community" which I have described in my earlier post.

Then the question is, why are they part of this "community" at all? It really smacks of the Catholic tactic of claiming membership for anyone who has ever been a Catholic, whether they are today or not. It's only done to inflate their claimed numbers and it's a purely dishonest tactic. It implies defacto support for a cause when none exists.

Heck, take a personal example, some of my ancestors came from Sweden. The fact that I am, at least somewhere in my background, Swedish, does not make me part of the "Swedish community". I don't speak Swedish, outside of a few swear words taught to me by a great-great-grandmother many years ago, I don't support Sweden, nor am I interested in their politics, I don't follow any portion of the Swedish culture or ritual, except if some of it has become ingrained in other traditions that Americans follow. Just being born doesn't make me a part of the "community", but, at least in some sense for the purpose of the argument, I am Swedish. The same is true of Jews. Just being born doesn't make you a member of some mythical community, it does, however, make you Jewish.

Anyway, when talking about ethnicity what are we talking about if not genes? Ethnicity is based on a presumed common genealogy and why does your genealogy matter? ...

It only matters so long as you care about it. My aunt, before she died, was the family historian, she could tell you anything about our ancestors for centuries and centuries back. And you know something? I didn't give a damn about any of it. I still don't. I couldn't care less about the family tree back before I was personally involved and I suspect a lot of people, Jews included, feel the same way.

Doesn't stop them from being Jews though.

Us being a "big interconnected Jewish family" is a big part of being Jewish, though.

For you and those who think like you, perhaps. Let's not generalize and say it's true for everyone.

The interconnected Jewish family is something that I have experienced in various ways throughout my life.

It's something *YOU* have experienced, yet you insist that the experience is the same for everyone and that's a ridiculous claim. Joe Blow pops out of the womb Jewish, yet never self-identifies as a Jew, his parents don't self-identify as Jews, he's not going to have the same experience you did. Yet he's still a Jew.

Jews are ethnically similar. Here... from the dictionary. The relevant portions are in bold and my comments are in Red.

It doesn't apply to all Jews though. Not *ALL* Jews celebrate the same holidays, not *ALL* Jews have the same genetic heritage, not *ALL* Jews practice cultural, religious or traditional rituals. I think I've mentioned him before, but I have a friend who is Jewish, yet he wants nothing whatsoever to do with Judiasm. He's an atheist so he doesn't practice the religion, in fact he reviles it, he wants nothing to do with Israel, he wants nothing to do with anything Jewish whatsoever. Yet he's STILL A JEW!

First, we don't argue over who is wrong because there are layers to our belief and if our point can be laid out reasonably no Jew will tell us we are "wrong." It is not so black and white.

Heh, my friend the Jew will tell you that you're wrong, trust me.

Second, you have a tendency to say things that are not conducive to honest debate.

This debate started because cnorman18 said that his Judiasm was logical and rational and I challenged him on it. He has yet to back up his assertion. My only concern in this debate, indeed in any religious debate, is whether the religious claims are factually and demonstrably true. If they are not, then why the hell bother with them? That goes for Judiasm, that goes for Christianity, that goes for Islam, heck, it would go for Pastafarianism if I could find someone who actually thought it was true. I've even challenged a Jedi on their so-called beliefs.

Lets not forget that you come here for, I'm sure, many reasons and at least one of those is to talk to people who disagree with you.

Actually, it's not simply to talk to people who disagree, it's to see who is actually right. Religious people make lots of claims, none of which, at least so far, can be validated logically or evidentually. The simple fact is that of all the world's religions, there is only one, at most, that can possibly be true, considering how many of them make contradictory claims. The very real possibility is that all of them are wrong and so far, that's precisely how it appears. No matter how strongly you believe in Judiasm as a religion, or Christianity as a religion, or Jedi as a religion, your beliefs are wasted if your beliefs aren't factually true.

The point is that this isn't about simply explaining what Judiasm is, in this day and age, if I wanted to know about a particular religion, there are plenty of online resources and I wouldn't need to come to a forum specifically for debate to do so. I want to know what you believe, why you believe it and why you think I should believe it too. If you don't think your arguments are convincing enough that I should accept them, then you probably shouldn't either.

To that end, you should probably try to use language that is not so quick to shut the other person down and make an otherwise nice person want to say things to you that could probably get them thrown off the boards.

It's amazing how many people go off the deep end because someone insults their religion. Religion, whether you want to believe it or not, is not a sacred cow that cannot be challenged or insulted and anyone who immediately takes personal offense because something they believe is attacked probably doesn't have a healthy outlook on their beliefs to begin with.

He has yet to be reluctant to respond to anything you have asked.

Sure he has, I keep asking how *HE* makes the determination what in the Torah is reliable and what is not and all he can do is point to tradition and "wise old Jewish men". Sorry, that's the argument from authority, a logical fallacy. Just because someone you want to label "wise" says something doesn't mean it's accurate, there are lots of "wise old men" who believed the Earth was flat. They were wrong. If all you're going to do is rely on tradition and authority, that's a sure sign that you've never bothered to think about things for yourself, you're just being led around by the nose.

In fact, "supernatural" discussion is rarely heard in a synagogue.

Depends on what you want to consider supernatural, I suppose. Jews believe in a god, that is, by definition, supernatural. If you want to throw away the god belief, why bother offering prayers? What are you praying to? Why bother observing religious holidays that refer specifically to supernatural events? If you throw out the supernatural, you don't have a religion at all, you've got a philosophy.

Once again, you are basing an argument on your very clear understanding of other religions and an equally as clear lack of understanding of Judaism.

I keep saying that if he wants to consider other writings, simply apply my questions to those as well, they remain good questions to ask. There has to be some source for your beliefs, you don't just wake up one morning and decide that the Giant Gigglesnort created the universe, you have to be introduced to that concept. Every religion gives their god characteristics, I'm asking where you get those characteristics? How do you know what your god is like? How do you know your god is real? Where do you get your information? What do you base it on? How do you know that your information is true and accurate, or is it something you do because it makes you feel good and you don't care if it's actually true? These are essential questions, these are the first questions every theist should be asking, yet these are the ones that they all run from.

Do you not care if what you believe is a lie?

I believe that historically speaking my people followed certain laws because of an, at the very least, perceived covenant with God.

Well, they justified following certain laws with a claimed covenant with God at least. Historically, that may be very true, but primitive societies often did things that we view as absurd. Central American cultures ripped the still-beating hearts out of people to please their gods and their victims, brainwashed by the same kind of religious nonsense, meekly stood in line and waited for their fate. What I'm really interested in knowing is why you, living in the modern age, think the same thing is valid. Anyone who went for some heart-ripping today would be prosecuted for first degree murder, we know better now. Why should the beliefs of the Jews, or the Christians, or any other religious group, be viewed as true and valid in the modern world?

Whether there is a "factual" covenant which can be "demonstrated" is not for me to determine or prove.

It should be if you're at all concerned about the truth. That's really the problem, you're not.

And that's sad.

I had a big response to this all written up and then I realized that you haven't answered my questions. Skipping people's questions and comments because you don't want to deal with them is only a good debating tactic when the other person doesn't pay attention.

I will, however, respond to this:

It's amazing how many people go off the deep end because someone insults their religion. Religion, whether you want to believe it or not, is not a sacred cow that cannot be challenged or insulted and anyone who immediately takes personal offense because something they believe is attacked probably doesn't have a healthy outlook on their beliefs to begin with.

What I said was in no way off the deep end. Nor did I say it because you "insulted my religion." I am not quick to treat my religion like a cow, sacred or otherwise, and I am rarely offended. On top of which, you know nothing about my outlook on my beliefs and shouldn't make a judgment call as to how healthy that outlook is.

What I pointed out is that when someone is having a conversation with you and you start talking about tinfoil hats and people arguing over levels of wrongness, you are shutting down the conversation. Perhaps it is because, through what I'm certain is no fault of your own, you are not all that schooled in how to talk so that people will listen and listen to people so they will talk? Either way, all I did was give some friendly advice that will get you far in life if you care to take it. When you talk to people like they are idiots and/or are crazy, whether they are or not, you are ensuring that nothing you ever have to say will mean anything to that person and that will make it extremely difficult for you to get your point across. If you would like to take that as me going off the deep end, by all means, knock yourself out. But that doesn't change the fact that it would really behoove you to learn about how to treat people who have done nothing to you but given you the benefit of their time and shared their thoughts with you about something that is important to them.


For your ease of use, I will repost some of the things that I've asked that you ignored. When you answer me, I'll answer you.

Please give me a clear definition of what a "single cohesive community" is and I will gladly respond to whether or not Jews are one.

And previously reposted because you ignored it----

When talking about "the Jewish community" it is not meant to imply that we all agree on... well... anything really. There is a saying that if you ask 3 Jews the same question, you'll get 4 answers. This is because we barely agree with ourselves, much less each other. We are, after all, named "Israel" which means "struggles with God." The term "Jewish community" also doesn't imply that anyone who is a Jew cares about the rest of us. Although, it is a safe bet that even if a Jew doesn't care about us, we care very much about him.

To illustrate that point, lets discuss a tribe of African Jews that were separated from their European counterparts many, many generations ago. So long ago, in fact, that most of the world's Jews didn't even know they existed and they, in turn, didn't know about us... until there was famine effecting our brothers and sisters in Africa and word got out that there was a tribe of previously-unfamiliar-to-us Jews who were starving. Jewish people all over the world, whether ethnic or religious, orthodox or reform, Ashkenazi or Sephardi united in an effort to help the African Jews. This was not because their practices or beliefs were the same, it was because they had Jewish blood and were part of our community even if neither them nor us knew it. That is what we mean by "Jewish community."

...which clearly illustrates what we mean when we talk about the Jewish community.

You also didn't respond to this:

Furthermore, we do not have "the true religion." [...] A non-Jew can have whatever religion he wants and is not considered a "sinner" whereas a Jewish Christian, for example, is an apostate and is practicing idolotry. Why? Because Judaism is for the Jews and the Jews are for Judaism. It is a Jew who ventures outside of Judaism by worshiping another God who is "doing something wrong" but a gentile who is Pagan or Muslim or any other religion is fully supported and a Jew who worships no God is also supported. That is why Jews don't try to convert people or convince people. There is no reason to.

We don't have all of the answers and we don't hold "the truth." We are chosen to keep God's laws but not because we are better than anyone else. We are God's people because when asked we accepted the task. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there is any such place as Heaven, the Jews will not be alone there.

...which is a pretty clear explanation of the fact that we do not take "on faith" that we are "right" and everyone else is "wrong."

Is there a reason for your ignoring those parts of my post?

After you've replied to the things I quoted from my previous post, we can continue our conversation which, for the record, I am very much enjoying.

[Cephus]

I had a big response to this all written up and then I realized that you haven't answered my questions. Skipping people's questions and comments because you don't want to deal with them is only a good debating tactic when the other person doesn't pay attention.

As a lot of your questions seem to rely on the same general misconception, I didn't feel I had to keep answering the same question over and over and over. If you genuinely think I missed something or don't think I answered adequately, by all means say something and I'll try to do better. Just don't keep beating the same dead horse strawmen that cnorman keeps trying to do, I get tired of answering the same nonsense over and over and these responses are far too long as it is.

What I pointed out is that when someone is having a conversation with you and you start talking about tinfoil hats and people arguing over levels of wrongness, you are shutting down the conversation.

No, I'm simply giving an analogy, one that it's not really worthwhile to watch two people who are both fundamentally wrong, arguing over who is more fundamentally wrong. It's like watching the Greeks and Romans arguing over which hill the gods live on. They're both wrong, the gods don't live on either hill, so quibbling over the details is really quite pointless.

When you talk to people like they are idiots and/or are crazy, whether they are or not, you are ensuring that nothing you ever have to say will mean anything to that person and that will make it extremely difficult for you to get your point across.

My, condescend much? When I run into the guy on the corner with his hand in his shirt who thinks he's Napoleon, I'm not going to pat him on the head and tell him he's right so he feels better, I'm going to tell him he's out of his mind and he needs serious psychiatric help. If he feels bad about his delusion, perhaps that's for the best, maybe it's the first time anyone ever was actually honest with him in his life and maybe, just maybe, he'll seek help. Anyone who shuts down because someone dares to question their heartfelt belief probably has nothing to be proud of in the first place.

Reality isn't about feeling good, reality doesn't care if you're happy or sad, it doesn't care what you want or what you wish, reality is what is, period. If your beliefs do not accurately represent what reality factually is, you are wrong. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of humans, theist and atheist alike, are more interested in how their beliefs make them feel than how true they are. A lot of them look at religion as a part of society, something that's expected of them. I'd be willing to bet that a good percentage of Christians only claim to be Christian because they think it makes them look good to the neighbors and I wouldn't be all that surprised if a lot of barely-practicing Jews and Muslims think the same thing. I'd say that most theists, regardless of belief, believe because it fulfills some emotional or social need, not because they've actually been convinced through intensive rational and intellectual evaluation and evidence.

My point is that if you're really convinced that your eternal afterlife relies on picking the right religion, how could you not examine the religion under a microscope? How could you not do everything in your power to make sure that the religion you accept as true actually is? It's not rational to just pick the one that appeals to you, or the one your parents practiced, or the one that the area where you're born practices, and demand, without a shred of evidence, that it's the only right religion. It's just ludicrous.

For your ease of use, I will repost some of the things that I've asked that you ignored. When you answer me, I'll answer you.

And I did answer it:

Then the question is, why are they part of this "community" at all? It really smacks of the Catholic tactic of claiming membership for anyone who has ever been a Catholic, whether they are today or not. It's only done to inflate their claimed numbers and it's a purely dishonest tactic. It implies defacto support for a cause when none exists.

Heck, take a personal example, some of my ancestors came from Sweden. The fact that I am, at least somewhere in my background, Swedish, does not make me part of the "Swedish community". I don't speak Swedish, outside of a few swear words taught to me by a great-great-grandmother many years ago, I don't support Sweden, nor am I interested in their politics, I don't follow any portion of the Swedish culture or ritual, except if some of it has become ingrained in other traditions that Americans follow. Just being born doesn't make me a part of the "community", but, at least in some sense for the purpose of the argument, I am Swedish. The same is true of Jews. Just being born doesn't make you a member of some mythical community, it does, however, make you Jewish.

To clarify, as I have in previous posts, there isn't one single criteria that places one into the "community". You can be an ethnic, non-religious Jew and be a part of the community, you can be a non-ethnic, religious Jew and be a part of the community. Neither of those people has anything in common. They do not share ethnicity, they do not share belief. They simply share a word, "Jew", which can be applied to a range of different and unrelated concepts. To that end, the idea that there is a single community to which all of these disparate and unrelated Jews belong is absurd.

...which is a pretty clear explanation of the fact that we do not take "on faith" that we are "right" and everyone else is "wrong."

I answered this one as well. Are you seriously saying that you don't think that the Jewish religion is right? You're purposely following something you are not convinced is correct? Even if you're going to follow a more universalist approach and believe that there are many different ways to heaven or whatever, how do you determine that the path you are following is actually going to get you there? Or that there exists at all? Because you have no proof that it's real, because you have no objective evidence, no logical reasoning, you're pretty much left with faith. So indeed, either you can present evidence to support your claims, you're just taking a wild guess or you accept these things on faith. Which is it?

[Ayah5768]

Cephus,

When your friend who claims that there is no Jewish community needs it, he will find that it is still there waiting for him.

There are not terribly many of us and there has barely been any time in our history that we were not persecuted. For that reason, we watch out for each other. We take pride in each other's successes and feel shame at each other's failures. We think of each other as family. We perceive a community which is not based on agreement or proximity. We are a community because, for the most part, we act like one.

You never told me what you mean by "a community." I specifically said that I would tell you if I think we are one based on your definition. I even reposted that question. Once again, you deleted that from my post in your response and didn't answer. All you said is "why would this person be in the community?" and claimed that there is nothing cohesive that creates a community of Jews. To that I say, re-read the thread.

What does it take to be in the Jewish community? You can be born into it or you can gain "citizenship" through conversion. What if you don't care about other Jews? It doesn't matter. We care about you. What if you disagree about philosophy? It doesn't matter. We welcome you and love you anyway.

People tend to get lost in the fact that there is a religion called "Judaism" and not fully understand that it is more than that. Our conversion process, which clearly answers the question of what it is to be Jewish, involves a group of questions. All of those questions are about entering a community and being loyal to that community. None are about philosophy or anything supernatural.

That is why we are a community.

Why is Judaism a "logical religion"? Because it is a religion of ethics and philosophies of reason. There are illogical Jews, I'm sure, but I have yet to meet one. There are Jews who believe in the supernatural, but they base their actions on the same ethics and philosophies of reason as any other Jew. More importantly, Judaism as a religion does not require that you believe in anything supernatural.

If you asked a Jew what it is to be Jewish, he is more likely to invite you to Shabbat dinner than to talk to you about God. Why? Because Judaism is about people and relationships. On Shabbat we take some time to appreciate what we have and we don't work, opting for family time instead.

Jews pray for their sick friends and then they go help them. Sometimes, they skip the prayer. Why? Because we are taught that it is our job to take care of the sick and the hungry, not God's. Being Jewish is a lot like the end of Bruce Almighty when he is using the slogan "Be the Miracle." That is what we are supposed to do. We are not supposed to spend time praying when we could be doing something. We worship God in a way that no other religion that I know does--by working to better the world. I guess that is why an atheist can easily be Jewish. In fact Jewish Humanism is no different at all from just your every day run of the mill Judaism.

A good example is in the first chapter of Genesis. While the Christians were all fighting over a literal 6-day creation, the Jews were asking, "why?" It has never been a part of Jewish thought that the Tanakh was a literal account of God's works. We talk like it is for ease of use, but few of us will ever or have ever claimed that it is. Norman's signature pretty much sums up how we think about the our Bible. "The Torah is true, and some of it might have actually happened."

That is why we have a "logical religion."

I really can't make myself any more clear.

Shalom,

Ayah

[Ilias Ahmad]

Judaism is a dead religion, its nothing more than a cultural heritage. It has no spiritual power nor does it emphasize the basic teaching of the holy Torah, "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One". Like the Christians, the Jews have forgotten and abandoned the most fundamental principle of religion, worship of One God only and abandoning devotion to idols and false gods. However, many Jews believe in Kabbalah and wear amulets to seek protection from evil, which is idolatry.

Jews are also evil people.

[JoeyKnothead]

Ilias Ahmad wrote:

Jews are also evil people.

I would like the moderators to know I had absolutely nothing to do with this, and my tongue is bleeding.