Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex?

[Greatest I Am]

Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex?

In speaking with Muslims, I have found that they see sin as something to be conquered and they are not shy about taking on the challenge of fighting their desires for sin.
A good trait to my mind.

Except for sexual matters.

With these sins and temptations, Muslims hide their temptation away, with clothing and social separation, and never face and conquer this particular group of sins. An example of this would be weddings where the females are separated from the males.

Know that some are more liberal than others and there is some liberalization but think that this is not the common Muslim.

Why is there a double standard?

Face and conquer, so to speak, other sins, but hide from sexual ones.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

[TrueReligion]

We have 2 different approach for debate.
From my side, I'am debating to provide soloution for mankind and for better society.
Whereas, fromyour side,its look like critisizing always and wants to win debate,

What you call critisizing I call poking holes in your argument and putting your naivete on display. You have been continually oversimplifying things so I simply reinsert how complex things actually are.

Like for rape, every1 knows its high in west, and the reason is that the punishment is very nominal,and mostly the criminals released, will do again andtake revenge.

Rape and crime in general is high in the U.S. but not the west as a whole and in the west the U.S. has the harshest punishments in general. The policy you are advocating is called deterrance as in you make the punishment so high you will deter the crime. Deterrance works in politics such as the military stalemate of the cold war but in crime where most offenses are crimes of passion or opportunity the offender is not thinking of the punishment or is convinced they will not be caught. Look at murder in the U.S. we have the death penalty for it but looking at the numbers it isn't stopping many if anyone from doing it.

Where as the countries which put high punishment, see these crimes are less, and its not only in muslim countries, but in non-muslim countries as well, e.g philipines,

Are the crimes actually less or is it they are just reported less? If a woman knows she has a good chance of being charged with a crime when she is raped what do you think the odds are of her reporting such a crime? Or as in Iran where rape is a sanctioned interrogation technique for both men and women. Rape is a special class of crime in that the victim is humiliated and many times led to believe it was their fault it happened and in some countries actually charged with a crime for being raped.

But I never saw any1 from west complaining for philipines law of death penalty for rape, y? because its a non-muslim country,and they have all the right to implement whatever they way? but if a muslim country do,its against humanity and barbaric laws?
Y there is double standard?

There is no double standard, Europe complains constantly about how barbaric the U.S. is for still having the death penalty. In the west we have a principal in law called proportionality as in the punishment should be proportional to the crime. We have another principal in that the state can not exact cruel and unusual punishment, I'm sure you are aware of the whole Abu Ghraib fiasco. All punishments have to fit inside these two principals so no the west isn't going to bring capital punishment into a non capital crime, but if it makes you feel better many individuals within the U.S. think and agree with what you say.

Yes, I agree with most of the points you mentioned, and we both agree that its good for mankind and society sometimes punishment right?
For the reporting issue you mention, its not eeverywhere, in some countries though in remote areas its hard for women to report, like in India, Pakistan, Philipines, but its a cultural issue, not religios issue.

Thats y, Muslims try best to avoid this kind of thing to happpenn, and Hijjab is must 1st for men, thn ffor women, to give protection to women and men as well.

Hope you wont find any bad thing in this

[Greatest I Am]

Sin.

My definition of sin is anything that causes legitimate harm to individuals or causes justifiable complaints by others.
Sin is what, if done to an individual, causes that individual to want retribution.

Regards
DL

Ok, so the person who harms individual or others, should he be given punishment or not?

Absolutely.

Not the religious punishment because that punishment is not exactly graduated to fit the sin.
To spend eternity in hell for any sin is just overkill and unjust.

Some say that we sin against God as well when we sin and that is why that punishment is so huge but I believe that to be B S.
We sin against other humans. God is irrelevant.

Regards
DL

[Wyvern]

Yes, I agree with most of the points you mentioned, and we both agree that its good for mankind and society sometimes punishment right?

Good no, but at times necessary. One should never take joy from causing suffering in others.

For the reporting issue you mention, its not eeverywhere, in some countries though in remote areas its hard for women to report, like in India, Pakistan, Philipines, but its a cultural issue, not religios issue.

There have been cases in muslim countries where a women has been raped and then to put insult to injury they are also charged with a crime, not the men who actually commited the crime. In Iran rape has been sanctioned by high level clerics as an interrogation technique, even worse there have been reports that if a virgin is sentenced to death, the night before they marry and rape her since the koran says virgins automatically go to heaven. This is a religious issue.

Thats y, Muslims try best to avoid this kind of thing to happpenn, and Hijjab is must 1st for men, thn ffor women, to give protection to women and men as well.

Seems like you make no expectation of men to control themselves so you make women dress in as non-feminine way as possible. After all if you really wanted to protect women through clothing you should have them dress exactly the same as men, glue on a beard and cut the hair short and who would even know who was a woman.

[TrueReligion]

Sin.

My definition of sin is anything that causes legitimate harm to individuals or causes justifiable complaints by others.
Sin is what, if done to an individual, causes that individual to want retribution.

Regards
DL

Ok, so the person who harms individual or others, should he be given punishment or not?

Absolutely.

Not the religious punishment because that punishment is not exactly graduated to fit the sin.
To spend eternity in hell for any sin is just overkill and unjust.

Some say that we sin against God as well when we sin and that is why that punishment is so huge but I believe that to be B S.
We sin against other humans. God is irrelevant.

Regards
DL

Ok, now lets suppose as the post suggest, its for sin of sex that muslims avoid temptation etc, so what you think are the possible ways of sins in sex,?

e.g rape adultery,fornication, etc etc, does these things harm individual and society?

[TrueReligion]

Yes, I agree with most of the points you mentioned, and we both agree that its good for mankind and society sometimes punishment right?

Good no, but at times necessary. One should never take joy from causing suffering in others.

For the reporting issue you mention, its not eeverywhere, in some countries though in remote areas its hard for women to report, like in India, Pakistan, Philipines, but its a cultural issue, not religios issue.

There have been cases in muslim countries where a women has been raped and then to put insult to injury they are also charged with a crime, not the men who actually commited the crime. In Iran rape has been sanctioned by high level clerics as an interrogation technique, even worse there have been reports that if a virgin is sentenced to death, the night before they marry and rape her since the koran says virgins automatically go to heaven. This is a religious issue.

Now here the problem come between us, it clearly shows that you are targeting muslims, and for me I;am taking as general, I admit there are cases in muslim countries happen, but its not teaching of Islam, or you find in Quran these laws?
Have you ever reported cases from non-muslim countries? have u forgoten couple of yrs back famous rape case in philipines? where US soldier kidnap a filipina in car and all of them rape 1by 1? and US army protected the soldiers and tried their best to take soldiers away from the case?
What I;am tryng to point, is that ppl get astray fromreligious teachings for material gains, and commit bad things, this is called a sin, if you find any of these teachings in Islam show me, and we will discuss,
taking 1 case from any muslim country and making it issue for whole Islam is wrong. correct?

Thats y, Muslims try best to avoid this kind of thing to happpenn, and Hijjab is must 1st for men, thn ffor women, to give protection to women and men as well.

Seems like you make no expectation of men to control themselves so you make women dress in as non-feminine way as possible. After all if you really wanted to protect women through clothing you should have them dress exactly the same as men, glue on a beard and cut the hair short and who would even know who was a woman.

so in ur mind feminity for women is only that her chestis open, and half legs showingetc etc?its not feminity, its called vulgarity, and its not even accepted in many non=muslim countries as well.
Rest for beard and something, in past years, keeping beard is a sign of man, removing it was considered as a sign of being lady like nature,u know what I mean.
I told already, in Islam, Hijab is odered for man 1st, thn for woman, read Islam thn tell me if its rigiht pr wrong

[Greatest I Am]

Sin.

My definition of sin is anything that causes legitimate harm to individuals or causes justifiable complaints by others.
Sin is what, if done to an individual, causes that individual to want retribution.

Regards
DL

Ok, so the person who harms individual or others, should he be given punishment or not?

Absolutely.

Not the religious punishment because that punishment is not exactly graduated to fit the sin.
To spend eternity in hell for any sin is just overkill and unjust.

Some say that we sin against God as well when we sin and that is why that punishment is so huge but I believe that to be B S.
We sin against other humans. God is irrelevant.

Regards
DL

Ok, now lets suppose as the post suggest, its for sin of sex that muslims avoid temptation etc, so what you think are the possible ways of sins in sex,?

e.g rape adultery,fornication, etc etc, does these things harm individual and society?

Rape is not primarily a sex crime. It is a control crime with a sexual component and yes it would be a sin or crime because it is not consenting adults.
There is a victim.

Adultery, fornication etc., if done openly and freely by the participants then there is no victim. In this case it would not be a sin or crime.

If they include lying to a partner then yes as it could produce a victim or someone hurt by it. It would be considered a sin but not a crime.

Is being Gay a sin or crime. Not if it is consenting adults.

Regards
DL

[Wyvern]

Now here the problem come between us, it clearly shows that you are targeting muslims, and for me I;am taking as general, I admit there are cases in muslim countries happen, but its not teaching of Islam, or you find in Quran these laws?
Have you ever reported cases from non-muslim countries? have u forgoten couple of yrs back famous rape case in philipines? where US soldier kidnap a filipina in car and all of them rape 1by 1? and US army protected the soldiers and tried their best to take soldiers away from the case?
What I;am tryng to point, is that ppl get astray fromreligious teachings for material gains, and commit bad things, this is called a sin, if you find any of these teachings in Islam show me, and we will discuss,
taking 1 case from any muslim country and making it issue for whole Islam is wrong. correct?

I'm not targeting muslims, you show me any official communication where a western political or religious authority authorizes and gives the correct procedure for raping someone and I will gladly write about that as well. But the truth is that nowhere in the world has such a thing happened except in Iran.
About the U.S. rape case you mentioned, did you bother following through and seeing the punishment they recieved through the military? When did this happen and are you aware of the force agreements most countries have with U.S. forces? After all we have very few troops in the Phillipines now as opposed to twenty years ago when we had tens of thousands stationed there.
I took this one case because it was an official declaration by an imam in the government on how to rape in a proper islamic manner. Additionally it can only be assumed to be a pretty common thing if someone in the government thinks it necessary to provide guidelines on it.

so in ur mind feminity for women is only that her chestis open, and half legs showingetc etc?its not feminity, its called vulgarity, and its not even accepted in many non=muslim countries as well.

Where the hell do you get this out of what I have written>

Rest for beard and something, in past years, keeping beard is a sign of man, removing it was considered as a sign of being lady like nature,u know what I mean.

Hey I'm just trying to protect the women, from the apparently unstoppable hordes of horny islamic men.

I told already, in Islam, Hijab is odered for man 1st, thn for woman, read Islam thn tell me if its rigiht pr wrong

So because you make no expectations for men to control themselves you punish women by making them all wear basically the same thing, heaven forbid that a man be taught self control. If you can't control yourselves how do you expect to control anything.

[TrueReligion]

Sin.

My definition of sin is anything that causes legitimate harm to individuals or causes justifiable complaints by others.
Sin is what, if done to an individual, causes that individual to want retribution.

Regards
DL

Ok, so the person who harms individual or others, should he be given punishment or not?

Absolutely.

Not the religious punishment because that punishment is not exactly graduated to fit the sin.
To spend eternity in hell for any sin is just overkill and unjust.

Some say that we sin against God as well when we sin and that is why that punishment is so huge but I believe that to be B S.
We sin against other humans. God is irrelevant.

Regards
DL

Ok, now lets suppose as the post suggest, its for sin of sex that muslims avoid temptation etc, so what you think are the possible ways of sins in sex,?

e.g rape adultery,fornication, etc etc, does these things harm individual and society?

Rape is not primarily a sex crime. It is a control crime with a sexual component and yes it would be a sin or crime because it is not consenting adults.
There is a victim.

Adultery, fornication etc., if done openly and freely by the participants then there is no victim. In this case it would not be a sin or crime.

If they include lying to a partner then yes as it could produce a victim or someone hurt by it. It would be considered a sin but not a crime.

Is being Gay a sin or crime. Not if it is consenting adults.

Regards
DL

Ok, so we agree that rape is sin as well as crime and the person need to be punished.
So Islam provides the way, that this incident of rape should not happen, and becomes very less. Now tell me, if 2 girls, one covered with clothes, and other with revealing clothes showing her body and etcetc, who will get chance of being raped more?

For adultery, its sex done by married male or female, with some1 else thn their legal partner, and ofcourse 95% is hidden and without the knowledge of their legal partner, so what you think, hiding and stealing is a good example in society? we are here right to build the best of society for every1.
And the morals which kids get, if the husband or wife is caught,thn the argument and fight errupts, divorce, court etc etc,
All these things Islam ordered not to get involve, and thats y muslims avoid any kind of temptation, leading to sex, which in turn bring bad results on whole family,and on society.

Hope my explanation is clear and easy to understand.

Thanks

[TrueReligion]

Now here the problem come between us, it clearly shows that you are targeting muslims, and for me I;am taking as general, I admit there are cases in muslim countries happen, but its not teaching of Islam, or you find in Quran these laws?
Have you ever reported cases from non-muslim countries? have u forgoten couple of yrs back famous rape case in philipines? where US soldier kidnap a filipina in car and all of them rape 1by 1? and US army protected the soldiers and tried their best to take soldiers away from the case?
What I;am tryng to point, is that ppl get astray fromreligious teachings for material gains, and commit bad things, this is called a sin, if you find any of these teachings in Islam show me, and we will discuss,
taking 1 case from any muslim country and making it issue for whole Islam is wrong. correct?

I'm not targeting muslims, you show me any official communication where a western political or religious authority authorizes and gives the correct procedure for raping someone and I will gladly write about that as well. But the truth is that nowhere in the world has such a thing happened except in Iran.
About the U.S. rape case you mentioned, did you bother following through and seeing the punishment they recieved through the military? When did this happen and are you aware of the force agreements most countries have with U.S. forces? After all we have very few troops in the Phillipines now as opposed to twenty years ago when we had tens of thousands stationed there.
I took this one case because it was an official declaration by an imam in the government on how to rape in a proper islamic manner. Additionally it can only be assumed to be a pretty common thing if someone in the government thinks it necessary to provide guidelines on it.

No, you are taking one example of Iran, dats y I asked you did you ever read this punishment in Quran, or any of Hadith, or Islamic tradition? I can show you numerous other examples of non-muslim countries, where un-human things are hapening and its from culture involving religion in wrong aspect.
Show me any verse of Quran which tells this wat they did in Iran.

so in ur mind feminity for women is only that her chestis open, and half legs showingetc etc?its not feminity, its called vulgarity, and its not even accepted in many non=muslim countries as well.

Where the hell do you get this out of what I have written>

The passage you showed that covering women in Islam and hiding their feminity is against their wil, didnt you said that/

Rest for beard and something, in past years, keeping beard is a sign of man, removing it was considered as a sign of being lady like nature,u know what I mean.

Hey I'm just trying to protect the women, from the apparently unstoppable hordes of horny islamic men.

you are tying to protect women? my friend,are the pornographic channels in the world, nudity of women, sex, rape, is this more in islamic country or in non-muslim countries? you are urself degrading women, our women are very happy with their dress, you dont have to bother for them

I told already, in Islam, Hijab is odered for man 1st, thn for woman, read Islam thn tell me if its rigiht pr wrong

So because you make no expectations for men to control themselves you punish women by making them all wear basically the same thing, heaven forbid that a man be taught self control. If you can't control yourselves how do you expect to control anything.

I think you have a total lack of knowledge of Islam, and you just rely in media and news which are trying to molest Islam, if you are true in your words, y I never head anythingfrom what is hapening in Indna and by hindus, which in real target andmolst women, and torture and beat them.
and in west, where there is cruelty and nudity which they gave to women, and no respect at all forwoman in west at all.

[Wyvern]

No, you are taking one example of Iran, dats y I asked you did you ever read this punishment in Quran, or any of Hadith, or Islamic tradition? I can show you numerous other examples of non-muslim countries, where un-human things are hapening and its from culture involving religion in wrong aspect.
Show me any verse of Quran which tells this wat they did in Iran.

I use the example of Iran simply because nowhere else in the world has come out with guidelines for rape. This declaration was made by an imam, he has spent decades studying islam and as such I doubt a simple web search is going to trump his knowledge. If you disagree with his pronouncement say so, but saying it's not just us over and over again isn't a defence. Make your choice agree with your islamic brother and declare rape is okay or disagree with him and take a stand against rape.

you are tying to protect women? my friend,are the pornographic channels in the world, nudity of women, sex, rape, is this more in islamic country or in non-muslim countries? you are urself degrading women, our women are very happy with their dress, you dont have to bother for them

Who knows, most islamic countries either don't report crime data or they don't even bother keeping records of crimes. You are equating nudity with rape and this simply isn't true, in europe nudity is much more accepted than in america and yet they have much lower rape rates. Please stop making the same old generalizations that I have repeatedly called you on, it's getting tiresome.

I told already, in Islam, Hijab is odered for man 1st, thn for woman, read Islam thn tell me if its rigiht pr wrong

So because you make no expectations for men to control themselves you punish women by making them all wear basically the same thing, heaven forbid that a man be taught self control. If you can't control yourselves how do you expect to control anything.

I think you have a total lack of knowledge of Islam, and you just rely in media and news which are trying to molest Islam, if you are true in your words, y I never head anythingfrom what is hapening in Indna and by hindus, which in real target andmolst women, and torture and beat them.
and in west, where there is cruelty and nudity which they gave to women, and no respect at all forwoman in west at all.[/quote]
It probably has to do with the fact that this thread is about islam, if you want to make a thread about how hindus mistreat women go ahead. I find it interesting you have completely ignored the men should be expected to control themselves aspect. I also like how you state I have no knowledge of islam while at the same time you blatantly show your lack of knowledge of the west.