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Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]
It's called perspective. Does one live in a world of peace, love, understanding, compassion, empathy etc., or do you live in a world of wars, conflicts, resentments, strife, negativity etc.?
I don't know about you but I live in a world that contains both.
Well that's neither here nor there. Instead of engaging in ad hominem, try addressing what's actually posted rather than the poster.
In fact, as far as I can see the world contains far more of the former than the latter.
And yet the focus of this post is on the latter, hence my point which you have just added support to.
So now you're going to try to blame the negativity of Hebrew mythology onto others by claiming that they are incapable of seeing anything positive in it.
Given the fact that plenty of people not only can, but do see the positive in it; yes.
Sorry, but the theology demands that humans deserve to be condemned.
Not really. What it demands is that humans need to take responsibility for their own actions, behaviors and personal opinions.
There's no escaping that one.
I've had no problem slipping these ephemeral chains.
It's not open to personal opinion.
It would seem that your personal opinion wasn't excluded, so there's no reason why someone else's couldn't be included as well.
Life is messy. It isn't here to sugar coat the world around us, but to point out the reality of the world we live in as it is.
But it fails miserably to do this.
Again, some choose to look at the mess the world is in while others choose to look at those who are doing something to help others out of the mess. The bible does the same thing, and does it quite well. All of the authors point out the mess, and then immediately point out the solution to the mess. What could be better?
If it were going to point out the truth it would point out that many, even the vast majority of humans are good people.
It does. It points out that there are those who are spreading lies, and those who are spreading the truth. It shows that there are those who see they're the problem, and offers them the opportunity to be good productive members of society again. The bible refers to it as "repentance".
But it fails miserably to even allow for that to be the case, much less proclaim that it is the case.
Actually, that's exactly what the good news is all about, and what people who hear the good news are able to do is to see that they weren't quite as good as they once believed they were. They can now see how they used to obsess and wallow in negativity. Everywhere they looked they saw the negative, or at the very least obsessed over the negative. Then they heard the good news which is that they no longer had to focus on the negative anymore. They can now focus on the positive to such a degree that they no longer see the negative as such anymore.
The examples from the biblical texts are ubiquitous. My favorite example is Isaiah who saw how corrupt Israel has become. He then has this beatific vision of the Seraphim who are all proclaiming the holiness of God. They see only the glory of God filling the universe. They don't see the corruption of Israel at all.
This is more than most people can handle. Most people would prefer to be lied to, and be told what they want to hear rather than the truth. This is why virtual reality is becoming so popular among the escape artists of this world. It allows people to escape into a world that has been sanitized of all the problems that they can never begin to deal with.
Sorry, but MOST PEOPLE are Abrahamic theists. So much for your idea here.
Actually it supports my position. They remain Abrahamic theists because they see the value in it, despite their own inability to get to the bright side. In fact, it is in seeing their own inablity that they come to rely on something greater than themselves. They see that it isn't really about them at all. They become less self absorbed and thus less inclined to see the world around them in such a negative light.
The bible is written by people who don't just point out the mess the world is in, but point out that there is a way to overcome it, and it isn't easy. They could lie and pretend that it is easy, but would that be any better in the long run? Nope.
It is easy to be a good person.
Sure, but then that's not the point. The point isn't that it's easy or difficult. The point is that as good as anyone may be, they can still see the negative in the world. Case in point: those who see something negative in the bible.
If you don't believe this to be the case that doesn't say much about you.
As I said before, I do believe this to be the case, but again, you're still just engaging in the fallacy of the Ad hominem. What you or I believe isn't the issue here. One's beliefs don't prove much of anything, especially when it comes to debate. Were you going to offer anything other than your beliefs?
Anyone who sees the Bible as anything positive is pushing their own optimism onto the dogma.
Let's assume that's the case. It would be just as true to then point out that anyone who sees the Bible as anything negative is pushing their own pessimism onto the dogma.
It's not in the dogma itself. The dogma even has Jesus proclaiming that only few people will make it into his Father's kingdom.
Not really. Jesus points out that those who sit in judgement of others are the one's who are damned, but more importantly, he also points out that all those who are being judged, which is pretty much everyone else are not only not damned, but parading into the kingdom at that very moment, and continue to do so to this very day. People who notice those passages are focusing on the postive. People who can't see those passages are focusing on the negative.
This leaves the vast majority of humans to be damned.
This is the wishful thinking of the Pharisees who can't help but judge others. Jesus says that he didn't come to condemn, but to save that which was lost. What he's saying is that everyone is lost, and that he's come to find them all. He will not let a single one remain lost. See how only those who can see the positive can see the positive? Seeing only the negative is for those who are immersed in their own negativity. That's the message of the bible. From the beginning to the end, it's all about what you choose to look at.
In the beginning Adam is created to reflect God, but he chooses to look at himself instead. He chooses to listen to lies, and must face not only the consequences, but take responsibility for his actions. In the book of revelation it is humanity who has created God in man's image.
Christ shows everyone that by looking to God we can reflect God. Some would prefer to just look at their own negativity. That's on them. That's their choice, and they're welcome to it. This doesn't negate the fact that the message of the bible is that no one has to do that if they don't want to. Insisting that we focus on the negative is only for those who want to, or simply can't look at anything else.
Surely you're not going to argue against the decrees of Jesus?
How is it not a negative dogma if the vast majority of humans will be damned?
When one is oblivious of salvation, then it isn't the vast majority; it's everyone. As C.S. Lewis once put it. There are those who say to God, 'your will be done', and those to whom God says, 'your will be done'. In other words, God accepts those who are ready to turn away from their negativity, which is God's will, but those who aren't, are perfectly within their right to remain to wallow in their negativity.
Some never make it that far, and are condemned to wallow in that negativity for the rest of their short pathetic lives.
According to Jesus that would be the vast majority of humans the Biblical God created.
Not really. The bible provides numerous examples showing salvation coming to the world. Christ's kingdom is not an empty one, but one that is filled. He simply doesn't force anyone to look on the bright side if they don't want to. So, yeah, there are people who prefer to look at the negative rather than looking at the positive.
So this negativity that you have just decreed comes directly from this dogma.
Not really. It's simply an observation. There's no denying that the world we live in has problems. Those problems are not the result of dogmatic assertions, but the heart that produces them.
How can you see that as a positive or optimistic religoin?
I never claimed that religion was positive or optimistic.
Your not helping this religion to become anymore positive by far.
I'm not attempting to in the first place.
All you are doing is confirming its negativity.
Nah, the only one here confirming negativity is the one who brought up the subject in the first place and can't help but continue to drone on about it for the rest of their life.
Life isn't negative for everyone. It's certainly not negative for me.
"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much"
I wasn't suggesting that life is negative. That was YOUR suggestion.
My suggestion was in noting that those who focus on the negative are what makes life negative.
You are the one who is speaking about life being negative and pathetic. Not me.
Nah, I was simply admitting that there are people who can't help but obsess over the negative. They're simply projecting it into the world around them.
In fact, your entire post here has been based on the idea that life is negative and full of wars, conflicts, resentments, strife, negativity etc.
Again, a simple look at what I actually posted reveals that my point is in noting what one is focusing on in their lives; their perspective. Here it is again for your edification:
It's called perspective. Do you live in a world of peace, love, understanding, compassion, empathy etc., or do you live in a world of wars, conflicts, resentments, strife, negativity etc.?
Note also that the claim you just made spotlights what I'm talking about, and supports my claims. I just posted two perspectives, but you saw only the negative. This is the case with what I've posted, and it's the same with the bible as well. Some people just simply can't see the positive at all sometimes.
This was your opening statement.
See above, again.
I don't think Buddhists view life the way you do.
Perhaps, but again that's neither here nor there. Debate isn't about addressing the person, but the content of their argument.
You seem to have a very negative view of life. One can't help but wonder if you get that negative view from your religious views?
Once again, another example to support my argument. Have you considered looking to see if there is any evidence to support your own position yet?
In fact, it appears that you do indeed need to argue that life is miserable in order to make a case that your theology is only better by comparison.
It appears that you might want to look at what I actually posted rather than engaging in Strawman arguments.
That's a pretty sad argument I think.
It most certainly is. It's a Strawman argument. Thankfully, it isn't mine.
