What did philosophy really do to Christianity?

[mickiel]

"One of the most influential professors in the shaping of contemporary theology was Peter Abelard, (1079-1142). He is partly responsible for giving us modern theology. His teachings set the table and prepared the menu for scholastic philosophers like Thomas Aquinas, ( 1225-1274). Even before this Christianity became steeped in the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle.

The shocking historical fact is that many of the Christian church fathers were pagan philosophers and orators prior to their conversions, and the Christian faith soon began to take on a philosophical bent." ( Frank Viola pg.202).

( Much of this thread will draw from Frank Violas " Pagan Christianity", Eusebius" The history of the church", Boggs " The Christian Saga" and Rowdon " Theological education in historical perspective.") And from my own views of course. And I will draw on a few websites and articles, which I will always list the references.

Viola states, on Pg.203, " Within a century and a half after Christianity and Philosophy first came into contact, the ideas and methods of Philosophy had flowed in such mass into Christianity, and filled so large a place in it, as to have made it no less a Philosophy than a religion." Which when I read, was absolutely stunning!

When Philosophy got into the Christian bloodstream, especially Pagan philosophy, the Christian Theological Education system has never recovered from it. The fusion of Pagan and Christian elements, became a " Theology unto itself"; ( The term " Theology" used to describe Pagan beliefs).

[Man_With_A_Plan]

[Replying to post 36 by mickiel]

I would have to disagree that Roman Catholicism was the original Christianity.

Well I say that because it was the Romans who named Christianity, they did not name themselves that. Acts 11:26. Jesus started the church in Rome, it originated in Rome and branched out from there. Can you offer a different origin?

Acts 11:26 mentions Antioch, which is in Turkey. It doesn't mention Jesus being in Rome.

The papacy and the doctrines associated with it are foreign to early Christianity. From about the second century, the Roman bishops began to claim divine authority and jurisdiction over the entire Church, but the rest of the Church didn't accept this.

I would say that western Christianity was heavily influenced by Latin philosophy, but the resulting doctrines didn't really spread beyond there. The Orthodox church never was under Rome's jurisdiction, nor did the Orthodox faith ever believe in "original sin" or "purgatory" or "indulgences" or a distinction between "mortal sin" and "venial sin" or hell as a "fiery abode of torture."

Antioch was a city of Rome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch

I thought you were referring to the city of Rome.

[mickiel]

I was referring to the Roman Empire.

[ttruscott]

...

Well yeah I agree. That's why I'm against predestination. Also I don't think you are at the heart of the issue with predestination. The heart of the issue is that there is no love between man and God if we are forced to love God.

My position is that we are NOT predestinated by our creation to love or to hate. If we are predestinated before our creation, as per pagan Greek wisdom, then those ending in hell are also predestinated to hell, as nasty a blasphemy as can be considered.

NO, I rather contend that we were all created ingenuously innocent with the ability to make free will decisions about our eternal relationship with GOD, that is, to be able to become holy and loving or to be forever evil and hateful. This was in sheol, pre-earth. Then the earth was created for sinners who are sent here so that HIS elect who had chosen to become sinners could be redeemed by the blood and returned to HIM by living predetermined lives to perfectly bring them to Christ the best way. Only lives on earth are predestined, not our destinies which are self chosen.

The problem with your theology is that it makes the cross unnecessary. According to you before creation we made our choice for or against God. Then we go through this pointless thing before we go to heaven or hell.

The cross was absolutely necessary to redeem HIS sinful elect, the good (no one is good so how are they called good if it does not mean elect?) seed. The good seed are liable to the judgement against evil since it is written that if the tares are pulled up before the good seed are mature, then they will be rooted up also. The harvest does not merely refer to the event but to the state of character of the good seed as mature and the only maturity that saves one from judgment is the maturity of holiness...

So how is any sinner brought from sin to holiness? Only by the Blood of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Period.

[mickiel]

I think we were predestined to live in sin, which is why it has happened, the free will doctrine is just a way of trying to excuse God from having human history play out as it has. Human history is just the unfolding of God's predestined will; God knew exactly what he was doing. Free will is man's effort to put responsibility for life in human hands; God is responsible for how things have played out.

And we are most fortunate of that. Under God's responsibility, we all make it, under human responsibility, much of humanity is condemned.

[dio9]

Philosophy made Christianity a religion of belief and creed.

[mickiel]

Philosophy made Christianity a religion of belief and creed.

Well it certaintly affected their belief and creed.

[dio9]

Rather than how to restore fallen humanity , our individual selves , it focused Christian leaders on philosophizing how Jesus could be God and man and how God can be three persons and one being at the same time. Definition became more important than existentially practicing how to love our neighbor.

[Man_With_A_Plan]

I think we were predestined to live in sin, which is why it has happened, the free will doctrine is just a way of trying to excuse God from having human history play out as it has. Human history is just the unfolding of God's predestined will; God knew exactly what he was doing. Free will is man's effort to put responsibility for life in human hands; God is responsible for how things have played out.

And we are most fortunate of that. Under God's responsibility, we all make it, under human responsibility, much of humanity is condemned.

The theme of creation appears often in Jewish history and writings. The tales are different, but the central message is that God created us and at some point our species chose to exit the harmony we had with God.

God knew it would happen but that doesn't mean predestination, though I could see how the Protestant reformers (well, some of them) could see things so simply.

[mickiel]

Rather than how to restore fallen humanity , our individual selves , it focused Christian leaders on philosophizing how Jesus could be God and man and how God can be three persons and one being at the same time. Definition became more important than existentially practicing how to love our neighbor.

Goes to show you how philosophy messed up Christianity, because Jesus is not God and there is no trinity in the bible.

[mickiel]

I think we were predestined to live in sin, which is why it has happened, the free will doctrine is just a way of trying to excuse God from having human history play out as it has. Human history is just the unfolding of God's predestined will; God knew exactly what he was doing. Free will is man's effort to put responsibility for life in human hands; God is responsible for how things have played out.

And we are most fortunate of that. Under God's responsibility, we all make it, under human responsibility, much of humanity is condemned.

The theme of creation appears often in Jewish history and writings. The tales are different, but the central message is that God created us and at some point our species chose to exit the harmony we had with God.

God knew it would happen but that doesn't mean predestination, though I could see how the Protestant reformers (well, some of them) could see things so simply.

I see that as contradiction; God knowing is predestination.