Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

[Rational Atheist]

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

[Kylie]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


.

That's missing the point.

I'm asking if there's anything that's stopping it from being doable.

For example, if you were to claim that it would be impossible to get sufficient information, that would stop it from being doable.

But if you agree that IN THEORY it is possible to get sufficient information and IN THEORY it's possible to perform the calculations, you would agree.

Is my meaning clear here?

[Miles]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


.

But if you agree that IN THEORY it is possible to get sufficient information and IN THEORY it's possible to perform the calculations, you would agree.

Well, I don't believe knowledge, having the requisite information, necessarily gives one the ability to process it, preform the necessary calculations to arrive at the correct answer. Knowledge and processing ability are not the same thing. However, given such an ability, theoretically if one had sufficient information it would be possible to predict whatever the future holds.

.

[Kylie]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


.

But if you agree that IN THEORY it is possible to get sufficient information and IN THEORY it's possible to perform the calculations, you would agree.

Well, I don't believe knowledge, having the requisite information, necessarily gives one the ability to process it, preform the necessary calculations to arrive at the correct answer. Knowledge and processing ability are not the same thing. However, given such an ability, theoretically if one had sufficient information it would be possible to predict whatever the future holds.

.

So you agree that IF you had the knowledge and IF you could process it, you could know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

I trust you'll forgive me for being so specific about this point, but there is a good reason, which I shall tell you once you agree.

[Miles]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


.

But if you agree that IN THEORY it is possible to get sufficient information and IN THEORY it's possible to perform the calculations, you would agree.

Well, I don't believe knowledge, having the requisite information, necessarily gives one the ability to process it, preform the necessary calculations to arrive at the correct answer. Knowledge and processing ability are not the same thing. However, given such an ability, theoretically if one had sufficient information it would be possible to predict whatever the future holds.

.

So you agree that IF you had the knowledge and IF you could process it, you could know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

Barring some unforeseen consideration, Yes.

I trust you'll forgive me for being so specific about this point, but there is a good reason, which I shall tell you once you agree.

I eagerly await your good reason.

.

[Kylie]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


.

But if you agree that IN THEORY it is possible to get sufficient information and IN THEORY it's possible to perform the calculations, you would agree.

Well, I don't believe knowledge, having the requisite information, necessarily gives one the ability to process it, preform the necessary calculations to arrive at the correct answer. Knowledge and processing ability are not the same thing. However, given such an ability, theoretically if one had sufficient information it would be possible to predict whatever the future holds.

.

So you agree that IF you had the knowledge and IF you could process it, you could know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

Barring some unforeseen consideration, Yes.

I trust you'll forgive me for being so specific about this point, but there is a good reason, which I shall tell you once you agree.

I eagerly await your good reason.

.

First of all, I'd like to know how you think there could be some "unforeseen consideration" in a situation where you know with 100% certainty what the outcome will be.

Because this sounds like you're just trying to keep an escape hatch open, give yourself a way to get out of anything I say which proves you wrong by saying, "Oh, well, yes, that's the kind of unforeseen consideration I was talking about."

[William]

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent and knew e v e r y t h i n g, THEN I would know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

re the thread topic - would I also have free will?

[Miles]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


.

But if you agree that IN THEORY it is possible to get sufficient information and IN THEORY it's possible to perform the calculations, you would agree.

Well, I don't believe knowledge, having the requisite information, necessarily gives one the ability to process it, preform the necessary calculations to arrive at the correct answer. Knowledge and processing ability are not the same thing. However, given such an ability, theoretically if one had sufficient information it would be possible to predict whatever the future holds.

.

So you agree that IF you had the knowledge and IF you could process it, you could know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

Barring some unforeseen consideration, Yes.

I trust you'll forgive me for being so specific about this point, but there is a good reason, which I shall tell you once you agree.

I eagerly await your good reason.

.

First of all, I'd like to know how you think there could be some "unforeseen consideration" in a situation where you know with 100% certainty what the outcome will be.

Because I'm not answering you as someone who currently has the ability to ascertain the future, but as someone who can only imagine what such abilities might be. I don't know with any certainty, much less 100%, what the outcome will be, or if there are "unforeseen consideration" that may come into play. ... Verstehe? Probably not.

Because this sounds like you're just trying to keep an escape hatch open, give yourself a way to get out of anything I say which proves you wrong by saying, "Oh, well, yes, that's the kind of unforeseen consideration I was talking about."

And your "gotcha" ploy here is laughably lame. Perhaps in some future exchange you can best me, but certainly not in this one.


.

[Kylie]

First of all, I'd like to know how you think there could be some "unforeseen consideration" in a situation where you know with 100% certainty what the outcome will be.

Because I'm not answering you as someone who currently has the ability to ascertain the future, but as someone who can only imagine what such abilities might be. I don't know with any certainty, much less 100%, what the outcome will be, or if there are "unforeseen consideration" that may come into play. ... Verstehe? Probably not.

Because this sounds like you're just trying to keep an escape hatch open, give yourself a way to get out of anything I say which proves you wrong by saying, "Oh, well, yes, that's the kind of unforeseen consideration I was talking about."

And your "gotcha" ploy here is laughably lame. Perhaps in some future exchange you can best me, but certainly not in this one.


.

I don't know what you're playing at.

I was very clear about this hypothetical.

IF you can get sufficient information about the state of the universe, and IF you have sufficient computational power to make the required calculations, would you be able to predict the state of the universe at some future point in time with 100% accuracy?

That is all I am asking. The only thing that I can think of that would prevent that is if there are events that could occur that are truly random, with outcomes that can not be predicted ahead of time no matter what.

[William]

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent and knew e v e r y t h i n g, THEN I would know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

re the thread topic - would I also have free will?

[Replying to Kylie in post #268]

That is all I am asking. The only thing that I can think of that would prevent that is if there are events that could occur that are truly random, with outcomes that can not be predicted ahead of time no matter what.

"Truly random" would have to be shown to be possible. What evidence do we have which tells us that there is any such thing as "truly random" that these could be counted as something which would confound or otherwise limit 100% accurate prediction re an omniscient and omnipotent entity mind and future events?

[Kylie]

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent and knew e v e r y t h i n g, THEN I would know with 100% certainty what will happen on January 1, 2023.

re the thread topic - would I also have free will?

[Replying to Kylie in post #268]

That is all I am asking. The only thing that I can think of that would prevent that is if there are events that could occur that are truly random, with outcomes that can not be predicted ahead of time no matter what.

"Truly random" would have to be shown to be possible. What evidence do we have which tells us that there is any such thing as "truly random" that these could be counted as something which would confound or otherwise limit 100% accurate prediction re an omniscient and omnipotent entity mind and future events?

My understanding is that radioactive decay is random. As in, if you have a block of material that has a half life of a minute, you know that within a minute, half of the atoms will decay. But you can't predict which atoms they will be, nor can you predict what order they will decay in.

But anyway, if you are correct and true randomness doesn't exist, then I have to wonder why Miles specified this vague notion of "unseen considerations" if it was not an attempt to leave a back door open to get out of a logical inconsistency in his position.