Who created God?

Illyricum · Post by **Illyricum** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:13 pm

I seen this question many times so I decided to start thread on it. Some people have asked the question "If their is a God, who created him and how has he always existed?" Anyone?

agnostic_pilgrim · Post by **agnostic_pilgrim** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:11 am

Well, there are a lot of things that we believe in that can't be proven. I don't think proving something is necessary in order to believe in it. As long as there are some rational justification to believe (or not believe) in something, I feel that is sufficient.

I agree with you that "proving something is not necessary in order to believe in it". The arguments between atheists and theists are just a series of thesis and anti-thesis and in the end, it is up to the person to decide whether to believe in it or not (which is highly influenced by his intellectual capacity, experiences and other related influencing factors.). The point is, the existence of God is an unresolved issue and asserting that one is 100% "sure" that God exist or not is self-defeating.

Another problem with theists, aside from their disputable and not entirely convincing claims is that, even if a god is proven to be existing, there is still a problem of picking out which god, among the thousands of gods out there, is the true god (there is also the possibilty that none of them is true)

Both theists and atheists have good grounds for having their particular viewpoint. I have deep respects for their ideas and opinions.

But I have a problem with the (most) Christians' claim that we (freethinkers), who after much studying and researching arrived to the conclusion that god's existence is improbable, are going to be tortured to hell by god. Is it our fault that our level of intellect (which god allegedly has given us) were only able to reach this level of understanding? Why condemn us to eternal torment by having honest and justified doubts?

agnostic_pilgrim · Post by **agnostic_pilgrim** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:36 am

Who created god?

The question presupposes that there is actually a god in existence. So I believe this question is more appropriately addressed to the theists rather than otherwise.

But for the sake of discussion allow me to give my thoughts on the issue.

In my opinion, the most popular argument for the existence of God is the "Design Argument". To put things simply, the argument states that "everything thing you see has a design, therefore it is reasonable to assume that there must be a designer for the design to occur."

For instance, the universe is so intricately designed. The universe is govern with complex laws and among other things. Therefore based on the argument, "everything that has a design must have a designer", we can conclude that there must be a designer of it all - the theist presupposes that it is god.

But this line of reasoning has a problem. If theists require (using the design argument) that "everything that has a design must have a designer", as they have applied it on the complicated design of the universe, why does god, who is apparently way too intricate, complex, complicated and with whom the universe pale in comparison in terms of design, does not require a designer? If we are to believe that everything that has design must have a designer and yet it is asserted that god (who possesses more complexities than any other things in the universe combined) doesn't have one, aren't we being inconsistent here? It's either "everything that has a design must have a designer" or no. We can't have both.

Post by **otseng** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:01 pm

agnostic_pilgrim wrote: Another problem with theists, aside from their disputable and not entirely convincing claims is that, even if a god is proven to be existing, there is still a problem of picking out which god, among the thousands of gods out there, is the true god (there is also the possibilty that none of them is true)

Yes, that would be another area to debate on.

But I have a problem with the (most) Christians' claim that we (freethinkers), who after much studying and researching arrived to the conclusion that god's existence is improbable, are going to be tortured to hell by god. Is it our fault that our level of intellect (which god allegedly has given us) were only able to reach this level of understanding? Why condemn us to eternal torment by having honest and justified doubts?

Well, if you have come to the logical conclusion after much research that God's existense is improbable, then hell is moot. If you have convinced yourself that God is not real (and hell is not real) then there should be no need to fear of hell since it's just a fictional place. So, I ask you, why would you be worried about something that you don't believe exists?

Post by **otseng** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:52 pm

Yahweh wrote: The reason why the statement is incorrect is simply that it implies a contradiction, it states something exists where nothing can logically exist. It is like trying to concieve of a binary lightswitch which is both On and Off at the same time.

I do not follow you. What do you mean by "it states something exists where nothing can logically exist"?

Post by **otseng** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:01 pm

Corvus wrote: But, as I stated in my previous post, the universe could never exist forever only in its current state. It's quite possible heat death, the big bang or the big crunch is just another stage in the lifecycle of a universe.

The only other possibility I know of is an oscillating universe. However, even in an oscillating universe, the heat death problem still exists. So, it could not have oscillated forever.

agnostic_pilgrim · Post by **agnostic_pilgrim** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:04 am

Well, if you have come to the logical conclusion after much research that God's existense is improbable, then hell is moot. If you have convinced yourself that God is not real (and hell is not real) then there should be no need to fear of hell since it's just a fictional place. So, I ask you, why would you be worried about something that you don't believe exists?

Who said I'm worried? This is red herring. You are not addressing the issue.

The point I am making here is that, if, after everything, the Christian god turns out to be the one true god (which I doubt he is), the fact that he is unjust towards honest doubters still stands. Therefore the claim that the christian god is just is absurd. This is one evidence that the christian concept of god is self contradictory. And I simply find it hard in my rational mind to believe that this is the true god.

What I wish for you to address is to justify your claim that the Christian god is a just and fair god.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:18 am

otseng wrote:
Corvus wrote: But, as I stated in my previous post, the universe could never exist forever only in its current state. It's quite possible heat death, the big bang or the big crunch is just another stage in the lifecycle of a universe.
The only other possibility I know of is an oscillating universe. However, even in an oscillating universe, the heat death problem still exists. So, it could not have oscillated forever.

Your link earlier states that heat death will not occur if there is a "big crunch".

Here is another site describing the "end" of the universe:

The universe's fate is intimately connected to its shape which, in turn, depends on a single number, Omega: the ratio of the average mass density of the universe to the critical value required to just maintain equilibrium.

An open universe, corresponding to omega less than one, will expand forever. Matter will spread thinner and thinner. Galaxies will exhaust their gas supply for forming new stars, and old stars will eventually burn out, leaving only dust and dead stars. The universe will become quite dark and, as the temperature of the universe will approaches absolute zero, quite cold. The universe will not end, exactly, just peter out in a Big Chill.

The expansion of a closed universe, with an Omega greater than one, will slow down until it reaches a maximum size, when it begins its inward collapse. Like a video of the Big Bang and expansion run backward, the universe will become denser and hotter until it ends in an infinitely hot, infinitely dense Big Crunch--perhaps providing the seed for another Big Bang.

If Omega equals 1 exactly, then cosmic expansion will coast to a halt infinitely far into the future. The universe will not end in a Big Crunch nor expand into an infinite Big Chill, but will remain at equilibrium.

This last case is consistent with the inflation hypothesis, and also commands the most observational support. Not to mention the fact that, for most of us, it's an emotionally appealing scenario. Even though the universe's fate lies billions of years in the future, it's the only one we have.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Co ... sFate.html

Post by **otseng** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:51 am

agnostic_pilgrim wrote: What I wish for you to address is to justify your claim that the Christian god is a just and fair god.

Good question. Please start another thread on this topic to debate this.

fonso · Post by **fonso** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:36 am

Didn't Stephen Hawking disagree with the big bang theory, coming out with a statement in A Brief History of Time that the Universe never had a past, never had a future -- it just is?

He also mentioned some really mind-boggling suppositions, such as the superstring 10-dimension theory (can you imagine 6 additional dimensions apart from x, y, z, and time?).

Just a thought -- maybe similarly, we can say the same of God. He was never created. He just is. (Although Stephen Hawking himself believes that God doesn't exist).

Or maybe God is actually the rock.

mystic · Post by **mystic** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:05 am

Corvus wrote:
otseng wrote:
cattious wrote: If God has always existed, then why can't it be possible that the universe always existed?
If the universe has always existed, then we'd have already experienced the heat death.
But perhaps we've already experienced multiple "big crunches". Remember when Abs posted a few different theories on the possibility of an infinite universe? One was based on multiple universes and another postulated that the state of our current universe, the big bang and the big crunch are all stages of an endless cycle.

Everything has to have a beginning; if it didn't have a beginning, it has always been. and that just doesn't make sense.
Everything that exists in time must have a beginning. Since God exists outside of time, it has no "beginning".
I don't understand time enough to really make a judgement here. Does time exists because things are in motion? Would time exist in a vacuum? I'll have to research a little before I debate.

The material universe has a beginning and it will one day surely end. It is a victim of the cycle of creation and annihilation. What a cloud is to us in this material universe, this material universe is to those in the spiritual universe. Being "outside of time" would then be equal to being in the spiritual universe.

As far as who's creating and who's annihilating, well, it dependes who you ask. Every religion has its own answer. Some religions have similar ideas,while others have very sharp contrasts. The Hindu teachings(in general) state that Brahma creates and Shiva destroys, while Visnu (their own creator) maintains,sustains, this universe. How Krsna relates to these three, it is mainly believed that He is their creator. There is a limited few that believe that Visnu Himself is the creator of Krsna, that Krsna is only an avatar of Visnu. It is easy for those to believe such a thing since Visnu Himself is no ordinary god(demigod). But the truth of the matter is this;
there are many majestic gods but there is only one "Supreme God".
Radha Krsna is this supreme god. Lord Visnu, is a plenary expansion of Krsna. Lord Bhrama and Lord Shiva are created by him(Visnu). This might seem like a myth to all non-Hindus but it is actually only part of the mystery of who God really is. Another piece of the 'puzzle' ,and it hits closer to home , is this; Lord Visnu is known as the grandfather by those that know him, and that is because ,believe it or not, he is the father of JahVeh(Jehovah) , Allah, Buddah(celestial buddah,not Siddharta Gautama) and a certain celestial Indian chief(not Geronimo,not any earthly indian chief,but the Chief of chiefs). These four gods are 'brothers'.
Some people call JahVeh ,father, others call Allah , father,and so on. One thing we all have in common is the Grandfather(Visnu).
And yes, all these majestic gods are male. But that doesn't mean that they live boringly alone. They all have their eternal consorts. The Demigoddesses are very real also,but that's another story.

I hope I didn't confuse you even more. I will clarify , as well as I 'm able, since I am not totally clear about this hierarchy of gods, if you so desire some other time.

yours sincerely,
'a mystic in time'

P.S. I am a Christian , by designation, and not because I am very religious. Jesus , like the others is who the people say He is. Compared to the 'major' gods, he is more tolerant and patient. He is more akin to the saying that God is love. The major gods express love ,of course, but they express other emotions such as anger and such ,much more readily. . This stuff I didn't read in books. Naturally ,I am familiar with the Hindu writings, but that's not where I get my share of knowledge. I am not only a witness ( of a very different kind) for Jehovah and His Son, but the others too. Also, it's not something I learned overnight either. I have spent more than twenty years alternating(occassionally) between the parallel universes.