Isn't punishment supposed to be beneficial in some way? How is eternal damnation going to teach you anything? Or even if it does teach you something, how are you going to change when you no longer have control over anything and you are forced to burn in flame for eternity? The whole concept changes and the will to change is removed. Logically, eternal damnation makes no sense. The only thing it does is completely eliminate that entity much like capital punishment does in our current legal system.
Except with regard to Christianity you do not have to commit an atrocity. You simply have to not acknowledge the existance of a supreme being.
Hell
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illuminatus
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Post #11
How does that even relate? Doing a good deed out of fear is not the same as defending your life out of fear of fatal injury.
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BeHereNow
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Post #12
Let ‘s start over.Isn't punishment supposed to be beneficial in some way? How is eternal damnation going to teach you anything?
To your first question, where you want us to assume the statement is true, I say it is false. The fear of punishment may have a benefit, not just the punishment itself. It is not the punishment which is supposed to be beneficial.
If fear of punishment saves me from eternal damnation (hell), and puts me in eternal bliss, I don’t give a damn that I did it out of fear. Are you kidding me?
Your question says “If there is hell, then how is it helpful or beneficial?”
I answer “If there is a hell, and it scares me into heaven, I think it is darn helpful and beneficial.”
If you say “What if I don’t believe in hell?”, I say your question is not valid. Your question wants us to assume a Christian belief in hell, then decide if it is of value. Your line of thought wants us to believe that given Christianity, Hell is not logical. I say given Christianity, Hell is one of the things which might logically follow.
Does this help?
Post #13
The central question is, why under any circumstance, would such a place as "hell" be created?
Revenge?... Not very loving or infinitely forgiving.
An ULTIMATE THREAT?... More bully like than God like.
We are dealing with a core issue, which should not be danced around. Even a concept like purgatory makes sense, in that one can eventually correct the situation.
It seems so very clear, that God's loving, forgiving, absolute understanding character would find not use for such a barbaric invention. Give Father more credit; He was not made in OUR image...
Bro Dave
Revenge?... Not very loving or infinitely forgiving.
An ULTIMATE THREAT?... More bully like than God like.
We are dealing with a core issue, which should not be danced around. Even a concept like purgatory makes sense, in that one can eventually correct the situation.
It seems so very clear, that God's loving, forgiving, absolute understanding character would find not use for such a barbaric invention. Give Father more credit; He was not made in OUR image...
Bro Dave
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BeHereNow
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Post #14
Your position is that no rational or logical person would believe in hell because it does not exist, and your proof that it does not exist is that God is loving, forgiving and has absolute understanding.Bro Dave
The central question is, why under any circumstance, would such a place as "hell" be created?
Revenge?... Not very loving or infinitely forgiving.
An ULTIMATE THREAT?... More bully like than God like.
We are dealing with a core issue, which should not be danced around. Even a concept like purgatory makes sense, in that one can eventually correct the situation.
It seems so very clear, that God's loving, forgiving, absolute understanding character would find not use for such a barbaric invention. Give Father more credit; He was not made in OUR image...
I on the other hand say that some Christians might logically and reasonably believe in hell.
If my position is correct, yours is not.
I assume you believe in heaven, or at least feel that it is reasonable for Christians to believe in heaven.
If there is heaven and no hell, then there is only heaven. You mentioned purgatory, but purgatory is just a temporary state traditional Catholics believe you experience after you die, but before you go to heaven or hell. If there is no hell, we are back to square one with only heaven.
Where would you put Hitler, if not in Heaven? The bible only offers two choices. You would have us believe that the evil doers go to heaven along with the good doers, and that this is logical and rational.
I think it is completely rational, given Christianity, to believe that evil doers deserve to go to hell. They deserve eternal torment. We may disagree about how we define evil doers, but that is not the point of this thread.
I am not saying this proves hell, but I did not say I could prove hell. I only say that it is rational for some to believe in hell. It is rational to say the enemies of God deserve to go to hell. Unbelievers do not deserve God’s love and understanding if they don’t even recognize him as God. These thoughts logically follow from Christianity.
[2 Peter 2:4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
If we believe in Christianity, it is reasonable to believe the myths of the bible, at least until they can be proven to be merely stories. It is not reasonable to start out saying all of them are just stories and not real. Hell is one of the myths of the bible. It is reasonable to believe this myth until it is proven to be just a story. Your proof by reason does not work because you are using the bible to prove and disprove the bible [The bible is right when it says God is loving and forgiving, but wrong when it says there is hell.]. Even if you could prove it is just a story, you would still have to show what the point of the story is. Why does the bible contain the myth of hell, if hell is not logical and is not truthful, and is, essentially, anti-God (anti-loving, and anti-forgiving)?
Not all Christians believe hell is burning torment. I’ve known traditional Christians who believe hell is simply an absence of God. To them, an absence of God in their lives would be eternal torment.
I can also make an appeal to numbers. Since most Christians believe in hell, is it reasonable to think most Christians are wrong about a “core issue”?
Post #15
BeHereNow: Your position is that no rational or logical person would believe in hell because it does not exist, and your proof that it does not exist is that God is loving, forgiving and has absolute understanding.
I on the other hand say that some Christians might logically and reasonably believe in hell.
If my position is correct, yours is not.
I assume you believe in heaven, or at least feel that it is reasonable for Christians to believe in heaven.
If there is heaven and no hell, then there is only heaven. You mentioned purgatory, but purgatory is just a temporary state traditional Catholics believe you experience after you die, but before you go to heaven or hell. If there is no hell, we are back to square one with only heaven.
ME: No, not really. Purgatory is for me, a place to do a bit of remedial catch-up in areas that would make you an acceptable student for the next grade. We do not go directly to heaven anyway. The Universe is a university, and we our education here, continues on the Mansion Worlds. However, some are not ready even for that small step.
ME: Well, even Hitler was not capable of committing an “infinite” crime. God does not punish us for being imperfect. He expects us to want to grow, and in seeking Him, to accomplish that growth by producing evidence of that growth. God know our hearts. I do not know Hitler’s heart, only the evil fruits he produce here durng his short life. God is the only absolute reality. He gives us a piece of Himself within us, and as we are willing to listen to that guidance, we will move towards God. Eventually we actually fuse with that segment of God, and at that point we too become REAL. If we do not move towards God, we attain no reality, an eventually become as though we never were.YOU: Where would you put Hitler, if not in Heaven? The bible only offers two choices. You would have us believe that the evil doers go to heaven along with the good doers, and that this is logical and rational.
YOU: I think it is completely rational, given Christianity, to believe that evil doers deserve to go to hell. They deserve eternal torment. We may disagree about how we define evil doers, but that is not the point of this thread.
I am not saying this proves hell, but I did not say I could prove hell. I only say that it is rational for some to believe in hell. It is rational to say the enemies of God deserve to go to hell. Unbelievers do not deserve God’s love and understanding if they don’t even recognize him as God. These thoughts logically follow from Christianity.
ME: Again; Finite creatures, cannot commit INFINITE cirmes! So it does not follow that evil doers deserve to go to hell. They may, worst case, deserve to cease to exist.
ME: Judgment? Okay, but that in no way indicates “eternaldamnation!”YOU:[2 Peter 2:4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
ME: Stop right there! I believe in the wonderful sagaious parts of the Bible, and love the Psalms etc., but the myths are for me, like kindergqarden material, which needs to be understood more deeply when we achieve some maturity. The Bible is a compilation of books, voted into it by very mortal men. The lack of consistancy, and the very human attributes ascribed to our Perfect Father/God, cry out against its being divine.YOU: If we believe in Christianity,
YOU: Not all Christians believe hell is burning torment. I’ve known traditional Christians who believe hell is simply an absence of God. To them, an absence of God in their lives would be eternal torment.
ME: Of course!!! This is why there are literally hundreds of shades of Christianity! The inconsistancies, contridictions, and vulgarities are too much to swallow without somehow trying to dance around them.
ME: Historically, the masses are wrong 90% of the time! I rest my case.YOU:I can also make an appeal to numbers. Since most Christians believe in hell, is it reasonable to think most Christians are wrong about a “core issue”?
Bro Dave
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BeHereNow
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Post #16
Bro Dave
You have shown relatively well why you do not believe in hell. You do not use the bible to support your beliefs except in a very general way. I’m not convinced that you have used logic or reason to get there either. At best you may have shown that it might be logical to believe in ‘no hell’. This is not the same as showing it is not logical or reasonable to believe in hell. It matters such as this it might be logical for two different persons to logically believe in both ‘A’ and ‘not-A’. By ‘matters such as this’ I mean matters that can not be proven one way or the other. Two different individuals might rationally arrive at opposing conclusions.
Example: I might rationally conclude that it is going to rain today. You, using different weather reports and natural signs, might rationally conclude it is not going to rain. Now in the end one of us will be right and one will be wrong, but as far as our rational thought processes, we are both right in saying: a) logically, it is going to rain, and b) logically it is not going to rain.
The original poster said “Logically, eternal damnation makes no sense.”. You support his statements.
My reply is that you may be able to show why logically eternal damnation makes no sense to you personally, but this does not prove the statement to be true any more that the equally valid logical argument that eternal damnation does exist. Proving ‘Not-A’ is not the same as disproving ‘A’ in matters such as this.
My aim was to show why, logically eternal damnation might exist. I believe I have done this and you have not properly countered my reasoning.
I am interested in your explanation of Mark 3:29. Please explain this to me under your belief system.
You have shown relatively well why you do not believe in hell. You do not use the bible to support your beliefs except in a very general way. I’m not convinced that you have used logic or reason to get there either. At best you may have shown that it might be logical to believe in ‘no hell’. This is not the same as showing it is not logical or reasonable to believe in hell. It matters such as this it might be logical for two different persons to logically believe in both ‘A’ and ‘not-A’. By ‘matters such as this’ I mean matters that can not be proven one way or the other. Two different individuals might rationally arrive at opposing conclusions.
Example: I might rationally conclude that it is going to rain today. You, using different weather reports and natural signs, might rationally conclude it is not going to rain. Now in the end one of us will be right and one will be wrong, but as far as our rational thought processes, we are both right in saying: a) logically, it is going to rain, and b) logically it is not going to rain.
The original poster said “Logically, eternal damnation makes no sense.”. You support his statements.
My reply is that you may be able to show why logically eternal damnation makes no sense to you personally, but this does not prove the statement to be true any more that the equally valid logical argument that eternal damnation does exist. Proving ‘Not-A’ is not the same as disproving ‘A’ in matters such as this.
My aim was to show why, logically eternal damnation might exist. I believe I have done this and you have not properly countered my reasoning.
I am interested in your explanation of Mark 3:29. Please explain this to me under your belief system.
[Mark 3:29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Post #17
This is classic as to why I do not accept the Bible as infallible. Very many years ago, I became disturbed by these kinds of statements. The OT version of God as being angry, vengeful and sadistic just did not wash with my observations. I decided that God would not limit His contact with His childred to a dusty book, that had been shuffled from antiquity via hundreds of translations. I decided God would be availble to EVERY ONE of His children, no matter their culture or religious background. I decided that being clever or exceptionally bright would not some how make it easier for you to find God. In short, I found that external religions best contribution may well be that they drive us to THINK about what we what churches claim to be "absolute truth". And, that God would guide all who seek Him in a way that was right for each seeker.[Mark 3:29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
God exceeds our finest abilities to imagine Him. Describing God in human terms is just plain silliness. Hating each other for refusing to accept such a description is the monument we've built to our ego driven stupidity.
Bro Dave
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BeHereNow
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Post #18
Interesting.
Thank you.
Thank you.
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one''s nature, one becomes a Buddha.
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one''s nature, one becomes a Buddha.
Post #19
all punishment is a consequenc of doing the wrong thing so how is hell not a punishment.tcay584 wrote:Hell is not punishment. It is simply a stated consequence of willfully deciding to go against God. It is not designed to bring you into realization of your sins....it is the consequence of your sins. That's why no one gets out of Hell. There's no "Ok, you've done your time and been rehabiliatated...off to Heaven you go". Once you're there, that's it. We have all our lives to decide where we want to end up. You choose.
hell is the "punishment" for your sins
Post #20It has been said that your punishment for sins on earth is eternal damnation. But in the old days, they described hell as a place of fire and brimstone. This is not the understanding of current day. You see, in the past they used religion as a means of control. If you put fear in the hearts of men, they will follow your word. What could be worse than burning for all eternity? When ancient man was faced with this option, they quickly followed the will of the religous leaders. In those days, the religious leaders and the heads of state were one in the same. The will of the state was enforced by the power of the devine. Thus creating a society that feared disobediance because of the "punishment", eternal damnation.
It is my opinion that no loving god would damn one of his children to burn forever. To me, it is not hell fire and brimstone that awaits the non beleivers. If you live your life as though there is no god, then you shall spend your afterlife in his shadow, rather than is light. To be damned for all eternity is to be without god for the eternity that awaits you.
To find out definitivly that there is in fact a god, and then to be denied this company, would be the worst punishment imaginable. Kind of a "in your face" if you can imagine such a thing.
It is my opinion that no loving god would damn one of his children to burn forever. To me, it is not hell fire and brimstone that awaits the non beleivers. If you live your life as though there is no god, then you shall spend your afterlife in his shadow, rather than is light. To be damned for all eternity is to be without god for the eternity that awaits you.
To find out definitivly that there is in fact a god, and then to be denied this company, would be the worst punishment imaginable. Kind of a "in your face" if you can imagine such a thing.
