Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?

[otseng]

This question and other similar ones have been brought up, so I'm going to create a topic to address it.

This question has some other variations:
Could God create a universe in which He never has existed?
Is God almighty enough to do anything He wants including acts that violate his own character?
Can God create another God that is superior to himself?
Can God make a triangle that is round?

The atheists state that since God cannot do these things, therefore God is not all powerful and cannot exist.

However, the problem is not a lack of answers, but the validity of the questions. By asking a question that is inherently impossible, a valid answer cannot be reached. By starting off with an illogical question, you cannot deduce any logical conclusions.

Omnipotence is not the fact that he can do anything (including defying truths) but that he is all powerful within the limits of truth.

[supergirl]

God has three forms, The Holy Trinity, His spiritual form could create a rock so big that His human form would not be able to lift it

[Corvus]

Since God is incapable of sinning, does that prove that God is not omnipotent? God has a nature of which he will not and cannot deviate from. To create a rock that He cannot lift would go against His nature. Just as God is incapable of sinning...

Hold a moment there.... otseng defines sin in This topic as breaking God's rules. Since God himself makes the rules, of course he is incapable of sinning. And, even if he held himself to the rules he makes for mortals, he would still be incapable of sinning, since most, of his rules require some sort of material body. How can God fail to love his mother and father? How can he steal anything, other than life? How can he be homosexual? Commit adultery? Not wear his beard the right way? The only sin he could ever commit, and has, is that of taking another's life.

so is He incapable of creating a rock so big of which He cannot lift it. Does that prove that He is not omnipotent? No! It just means there are things that He will not do since they are irrelevant in His eternal purpose.

Who gave him this purpose? The very fact that he can't deviate from this purpose seems to suggest he is not omnipotent; i.e, capable of doing anything.

[adherent]

God definitely can't make a square circle or be married to his mother, he is still omnipotent. Humans define omnipotent as "all-powerful", God doesn't go by human standards or definitions. He does what he does because it is in his nature.

[Corvus]

God definitely can't make a square circle or be married to his mother, he is still omnipotent. Humans define omnipotent as "all-powerful", God doesn't go by human standards or definitions. He does what he does because it is in his nature.

Then saying he is omnipotent is wrong, isn't it?

[otseng]

Then saying he is omnipotent is wrong, isn't it?

I think it depends on one's definition of "omnipotent".

I have defined it in the first post as "Omnipotence is not the fact that he can do anything (including defying truths) but that he is all powerful within the limits of truth."

Now, if one defines omnipotent as "able to do anything including defying truths", then I would agree that God is not omnipotent.

[Corvus]

I think it depends on one's definition of "omnipotent".

I have defined it in the first post as "Omnipotence is not the fact that he can do anything (including defying truths) but that he is all powerful within the limits of truth."

I would think free will would not be outside the limits of truth. However, if God has a purpose, which he cannot deviate from, then that purpose, coupled with omniscience, severely reduces his power. He becomes an automaton where every single thing he is about to do has been planned, mapped, and done before. This seems to me a pretty strong argument for Calvinism – when God is outside of time, he already knows which are they that go to heaven, and has always known.

If you define omnipotence as being all-powerful within the limits of truth, then I am omnipotent because I too can do anything within the limits of truth.

[otseng]

He becomes an automaton where every single thing he is about to do has been planned, mapped, and done before.

However, if God is outside of time, all terminology that refers to time is meaningless. So, there is no such thing as "planning" in God's perspective.

This seems to me a pretty strong argument for Calvinism – when God is outside of time, he already knows which are they that go to heaven, and has always known.

I do believe God does knows future events. However, I also believe that we have free will. (Christianity and free will)

If you define omnipotence as being all-powerful within the limits of truth, then I am omnipotent because I too can do anything within the limits of truth.

However, you are not "all-powerful". God has absolute power over everything and can create, manipulate, and destroy anything as long as it's within the limits of truth. So, even though God can create anything, he cannot create a rock so big that he cannot lift it because that is outside the limits of truth.

[Corvus]

He becomes an automaton where every single thing he is about to do has been planned, mapped, and done before.

However, if God is outside of time, all terminology that refers to time is meaningless. So, there is no such thing as "planning" in God's perspective.

This seems to me a pretty strong argument for Calvinism – when God is outside of time, he already knows which are they that go to heaven, and has always known.

I do believe God does knows future events. However, I also believe that we have free will. (Christianity and free will)

If you define omnipotence as being all-powerful within the limits of truth, then I am omnipotent because I too can do anything within the limits of truth.

However, you are not "all-powerful". God has absolute power over everything and can create, manipulate, and destroy anything as long as it's within the limits of truth. So, even though God can create anything, he cannot create a rock so big that he cannot lift it because that is outside the limits of truth.

Then you - or God - follow(s) a different truth than I, otseng, since creation and destruction in the world I know are impossible and not within the limits of truth, likewise for creating a rock so big it cannot be lifted. Why are we applying a different standard for truth to God?

[otseng]

Then you - or God - follow(s) a different truth than I, otseng, since creation and destruction in the world I know are impossible and not within the limits of truth, likewise for creating a rock so big it cannot be lifted. Why are we applying a different standard for truth to God?

When I say truth, logical truth is what is applied here in the case of the rock. It's like saying, if God is all-powerful, then God can make 2 + 2 = 7. Logical truth states that 2 + 2 = 4.

In the case of conservation of energy and matter in our universe, it's not a logical truth, but a property of our universe.

[Shild]

Can God create a rock which is too heavy for Him to lift?

This question, and the conclusions derived from it, contain several logical fallacies. Allow me to enumerate one of them with an illustration. Imagine you are watching television and turn on an infomercial:

Host: Hello, I'm Celeb Hasbeen. Today, I've got a special new product for you, the Singu Ultraslice 3000! This revolutionary piece of cutlery is edged with industrial diamond, and is the sharpest commercially available knife in the world! See how it can slice through this pineapple!

Audience: OOH!

Host: And this combat boot!

Audience: AAH!

Host: Even this solid steel rod!

Audience: WOW!

Host: That's right, folks, this knife can cut anything! But don't take my word for it! Let's invite the people at home to share their opinions of the Singu Ultraslice 3000! Hello, caller, you're on TV!

Caller: This so-called "Ultraslice 3000" thing you talk about does not exist.

Host: Haha, well, I don't know what you mean, caller.

Caller: You just said the Ultraslice 3000 can cut anything, right?

Host: That's correct, Caller! The Singu Ultraslice 3000 can cut anything you throw at it!

Caller: But can the Ultraslice 3000 cut itself?

Host: Well... no...

Caller: There you go! I just exposed the latent illogic in the whole "Ultraslice 3000" concept! This great knife you're praising so much cannot possible exis- *click*

Host: Thank you very much, caller. (to audience) Now, can you believe you can get the Singu Ultraslice 3000 for 8 easy payments of only $19.95?

Audience: (Many audience members faint in amazement)

Do you see the logical fallacy the caller commits in this scenario? The caller removes all context from the claim that the Singu Ultraslice 3000 can "cut anything." The caller forgets to take into account the basic nature of the "knife" concept. A knife, by its very nature, cannot cut itself.

So, does this make the vendor's claim that the knife can "cut anything" inaccurate? No, because the vendor said it in a context. It is obvious that the vendor means the knife can cut anything as long as it would not contradict its nature to do so. This basic assumption goes along with all claims.

As an example, my friend Mike prides himself on being able to lift any weight up to 700 pounds. He weights only 300 pounds. Can he lift himself off the ground through his strength? No. The basic nature of the human body requires that if there were nothing beneath Mike, he could not hold himself up. Does this disprove the existence of my friend, or demonstrate irreconcilable fallacy in the whole "weight-lifting" concept? Or does it prove that my friend is not really so strong? No. It just demonstrates one must always take the latent assumptions of something into account when analyzing any claim.

As for God, He definitely has a nature, according to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

The proposed rock in the debate example is defined as something which cannot be lifted by an entity which can lift anything. Such a rock cannot exist, even in the realm of pure theory. To say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot create something whose very existence contradicts itself is meaningless. It has no more bearing on the God's omnipotence than the above examples have on the Ultraslice 3000's sharpness or Mike the weightlifter's strength.

[Addendum: I realize some pivoting knives can be finangled so that it becomes possible for the blade portion to cut the handle portion. For the sake of my post, I am only talking about non-pivoting knives.]