The Boy Scouts Pledge - Can an atheist serve?

[realthinker]

I am a Cub Scout den leader for a pack affiliated with a local public elementary school. This statement from the by-laws of the Boy Scouts of America was the final topic in a leadership training I took part in last weekend.

The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.

Here are a couple of related thoughts from the BSA regarding religion.

Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

This is the email note I sent our Cubmaster.

Dear XXXXX,

After the discussion of our final topic in last weekend's outdoor leader's training I feel I need to say something before it becomes a public topic for discussion on an awkward occasion. The official position of the BSA is that "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." While it is a position I can support in order to maintain my association with the BSA, it is not a position I believe. In fact, I and my family believe that there is not a God that intercedes in our lives. We do not practice religion.

We do believe, however, in a strong community and in contributing in a positive and active fashion to the lives of children to build our community. We believe in being supportive to the parents and families of our community so that they might be successful in fulfilling their family obligations to the community, including their religious obligations. We believe that involvement in community activities and organizations is our duty and that it is our service that earns our place as neighbors.

You have my commitment to the organization, which includes my commitment to fulfill my duties with regard to the religious fulfillment of our scouts and their families. I feel that while my religious beliefs and participation may not be according to the organization's expectations, this is not in conflict with my expected duties as a den leader. I am committed to ensuring that every scout whom I deal with finds complete fulfillment of the scouting experience, and that scouting leadership finds no fault in my support.

Should you, as pack Cubmaster, feel otherwise and find my position incompatible with your exercise of scouting rules, I will quietly defer to your judgment. To do so would be contrary to my beliefs, to my support of friends and the families of my community.

I await your considerate reply. If you would like to discuss, please feel free to call.

With best regards,

I am clearly serving in contradiction to the BSA by-laws. My son, likewise, is clearly not eligible for membership. However, we both participate and have had no indication that there is any incompatibility with our local organization and its members. As I portrayed in my note, I feel my service is in no way compromised. I feel I am in no way undermining the organization or the families I work with.

What is your opinion of this situation? Do you feel that my religious position should be grounds for my removal as den leader? Do you feel it should be grounds for the exclusion of my son from Cub Scouts?

[Goat]

I am a Cub Scout den leader for a pack affiliated with a local public elementary school. This statement from the by-laws of the Boy Scouts of America was the final topic in a leadership training I took part in last weekend.

The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.

Here are a couple of related thoughts from the BSA regarding religion.

Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

This is the email note I sent our Cubmaster.

Dear XXXXX,

After the discussion of our final topic in last weekend's outdoor leader's training I feel I need to say something before it becomes a public topic for discussion on an awkward occasion. The official position of the BSA is that "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." While it is a position I can support in order to maintain my association with the BSA, it is not a position I believe. In fact, I and my family believe that there is not a God that intercedes in our lives. We do not practice religion.

We do believe, however, in a strong community and in contributing in a positive and active fashion to the lives of children to build our community. We believe in being supportive to the parents and families of our community so that they might be successful in fulfilling their family obligations to the community, including their religious obligations. We believe that involvement in community activities and organizations is our duty and that it is our service that earns our place as neighbors.

You have my commitment to the organization, which includes my commitment to fulfill my duties with regard to the religious fulfillment of our scouts and their families. I feel that while my religious beliefs and participation may not be according to the organization's expectations, this is not in conflict with my expected duties as a den leader. I am committed to ensuring that every scout whom I deal with finds complete fulfillment of the scouting experience, and that scouting leadership finds no fault in my support.

Should you, as pack Cubmaster, feel otherwise and find my position incompatible with your exercise of scouting rules, I will quietly defer to your judgment. To do so would be contrary to my beliefs, to my support of friends and the families of my community.

I await your considerate reply. If you would like to discuss, please feel free to call.

With best regards,

I am clearly serving in contradiction to the BSA by-laws. My son, likewise, is clearly not eligible for membership. However, we both participate and have had no indication that there is any incompatibility with our local organization and its members. As I portrayed in my note, I feel my service is in no way compromised. I feel I am in no way undermining the organization or the families I work with.

What is your opinion of this situation? Do you feel that my religious position should be grounds for my removal as den leader? Do you feel it should be grounds for the exclusion of my son from Cub Scouts?

Well, IMO, no. However, the boy scout of America have removed several Eagle Scouts because of their atheism. That is one reason I will not donate to them, because of their discriminatory practices against gays and atheists.

[JoeyKnothead]

Heckuva spot. I really wish the BSA would get away from that one. It's their right I guess, but it discriminates against so many good folks.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

It is their right to exclude whoever they wish. That being said, I can't say I approve of or like the fact that they are so exclusive.

[McCulloch]

It is their right to exclude whoever they wish. That being said, I can't say I approve of or like the fact that they are so exclusive.

Yes, but since they are a registered charity and not a religious group they gain certain tax advantages. Funding agencies, the United way, corporate sponsors and government agencies, are sometime obligated under the law to withdraw their support from openly discriminatory groups, such as the BSA.

The following article appeared in Tax Analysts' Tax Notes Today, which is a trade publication for tax professionals and hardly a bastion of liberal ideology:

DOES BOY SCOUTS' POLICY ON HOMOSEXUALS PRECLUDE TAX-EXEMPT STATUS?

Copyright (c) 2000 Tax Analysts
Tax Notes Today
DECEMBER 11, 2000 MONDAY

BSA Wants Public Sponsorship Without Public Accountability

The U.S. Congress chartered Boy Scouts of America in 1916, with the declared purpose of promoting "the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues."

There is no mention of a religious purpose, obviously, since our secular U.S. Congress could not have chartered a religious organization. Imagine if Red Cross, which also has a Congressional charter, demanded to know whether victims of natural disaster believed in God before being willing to help them!

BSA would not be the large, successful group it is today without public sponsorship. It demands the privileges and funding of a public-sponsored organization, but refuses to honor its public duty to be nondiscriminatory in its policies and functions. Among the privileges BSA receives:

• The nominal "Commander in Chief" of BSA is the President of the United States.
• It receives direct federal funding through the Combined Federal Campaign. (Federal employees can get paid leave to fund-raise for CFC groups.)
• Its primary recruiters traditionally have been public school teachers.
• It traditionally receives free rental from public schools. Half of all Scout units have been directly sponsored by public schools and school boards.
• BSA uses local, state and federal buildings, parks and property free of charge or with major fee breaks, such as the rental for the token fee of $1.00 of Ft. Camp Hill, Virginia, for the Boy Scout annual Jamboree.
• Boy Scouts has been recognized and advertised on U.S. postage stamps.
• Another major sponsor is the PTA, a group set up to enhance the experiences of all students in the public schools.
• Additionally, a significant percentage of BSA's overall funding is from United Way, whose own "Eligibility Criteria for Organizational Membership" (adopted by National Congress, November 30, 1972) reads: "Faithfully adheres to a policy of nondiscrimination with respect to age, sex, race, religion, and national origin in connection with the makeup of its governing body, committees, and staff and the persons whom it directly and indirectly serves." United Way of America advertises that "every group receiving funds ... maintains a policy of nondiscrimination."

Since BSA has redefined itself as a private club with a religious test for membership, its Congressional charter, government/public school subsidy, and United Way funding must be dropped. But why would it wish to discriminate?

[Eph]

My question to realthinker in the OP, is, why would you regularly make an oath (or support) and organization whose primary value you did not believe in? (Cub Scout Oath is "...I will do my duty to God and my country...")

When the Boy Scouts were established in 1908 (100 YEARS AGO) the scout oath clearly included the phrase "I will do my duty to God..." This part of the oath has always been in there, like it or not, and it is noteworthy that you would be willing to stand up for your belief, or in this case lack-of-belief. However, in scouting, a belief in God is a core belief. I am sure there are other organizations where this belief is not mandatory - and you could find acceptance there.

On another note also regarding the Boy Scouts:

As an Eagle Scout and one who avidly supports the Boy Scouts, I am very disappointed at how the Boy Scouts have become portrayed in the media.

As far as sexual orientation goes, why can't they not allow homosexual scoutmasters if that is their belief? They don't allow females do they? So what if they don't allow gay scoutmasters? You wouldn't let your 15 year old daughter and her friends go camping in the same tent as your hetero-sexual neighbor from next door would you? This is the dilemma the Boy Scouts are in and it has more to do with sleeping arrangements than it does with tolerance.

Cub Scouts begin when they are 8. Boy Scouts begin when they are 11 years old.
Scouting is a great organization. At 8-17 years old, scouts do not need to declare their sexual orientation because they are children/boys. Why the pressure to do so? Scouting is about teaching young boys about being trustworthy, loyal, friendly, helpful, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, neat and reverent. In fact, I'd say, it helps kids keep their minds off sex.

There is no other organization, that I know of, that is attempting to build well-rounded, civic-minded individuals the way the Boy Scouts are. It teaches kids to be civic minded and learn life enhancing skills (minus the playstation). Has anyone seen the merit badge list? Detractors, look at the merit badge list and tell me if there is another organization teaching such skills to young boys.

http://www.usscouts.org/meritbadges.asp

This is a phenominal organization and they definitely have my support!

[Nilloc James]

Cub Scouts begin when they are 8. Boy Scouts begin when they are 11 years old.
Scouting is a great organization. At 8-17 years old, scouts do not need to declare their sexual orientation because they are children/boys. Why the pressure to do so? Scouting is about teaching young boys about being trustworthy, loyal, friendly, helpful, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, neat and reverent. In fact, I'd say, it helps kids keep their minds off sex.

There is no other organization, that I know of, that is attempting to build well-rounded, civic-minded individuals the way the Boy Scouts are. It teaches kids to be civic minded and learn life enhancing skills (minus the playstation). Has anyone seen the merit badge list? Detractors, look at the merit badge list and tell me if there is another organization teaching such skills to young boys.

A religous aspect is not needed to teach these skills and traits though.

Anyways encouraging discrimination is definitly something you don't want to teach.

[Goat]

My question to realthinker in the OP, is, why would you regularly make an oath (or support) and organization whose primary value you did not believe in? (Cub Scout Oath is "...I will do my duty to God and my country...")

When the Boy Scouts were established in 1908 (100 YEARS AGO) the scout oath clearly included the phrase "I will do my duty to God..." This part of the oath has always been in there, like it or not, and it is noteworthy that you would be willing to stand up for your belief, or in this case lack-of-belief. However, in scouting, a belief in God is a core belief. I am sure there are other organizations where this belief is not mandatory - and you could find acceptance there.

On another note also regarding the Boy Scouts:

As an Eagle Scout and one who avidly supports the Boy Scouts, I am very disappointed at how the Boy Scouts have become portrayed in the media.

As far as sexual orientation goes, why can't they not allow homosexual scoutmasters if that is their belief? They don't allow females do they? So what if they don't allow gay scoutmasters? You wouldn't let your 15 year old daughter and her friends go camping in the same tent as your hetero-sexual neighbor from next door would you? This is the dilemma the Boy Scouts are in and it has more to do with sleeping arrangements than it does with tolerance.

Cub Scouts begin when they are 8. Boy Scouts begin when they are 11 years old.
Scouting is a great organization. At 8-17 years old, scouts do not need to declare their sexual orientation because they are children/boys. Why the pressure to do so? Scouting is about teaching young boys about being trustworthy, loyal, friendly, helpful, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, neat and reverent. In fact, I'd say, it helps kids keep their minds off sex.

There is no other organization, that I know of, that is attempting to build well-rounded, civic-minded individuals the way the Boy Scouts are. It teaches kids to be civic minded and learn life enhancing skills (minus the playstation). Has anyone seen the merit badge list? Detractors, look at the merit badge list and tell me if there is another organization teaching such skills to young boys.

http://www.usscouts.org/meritbadges.asp

This is a phenominal organization and they definitely have my support!

Frankly, I will not support the Boy Scouts because of their discriminatory practices, against homosexuals and against atheists. I don't know why any atheist would want to be a 'eagle scout', I would tell them to go shove it.
I also am glad they are not getting the special treatment they had before when it comes to free reign into using public facilities, but have to go with the same criteria as every other non-profit organization.

They have every right to have their polices, and I have every right to make sure than none of my donations or tax monies go to them.

I don't agree with organizations that teach and practice discrimination.

[realthinker]

My question to realthinker in the OP, is, why would you regularly make an oath (or support) and organization whose primary value you did not believe in? (Cub Scout Oath is "...I will do my duty to God and my country...")

I don't see that duty to God is a primary value in practice. It is, from my experience, of far lower significance than that. But then, I've only been in the org for about 2 years at the Cub Scout level, plus we are chartered by a public school, not a religious organization.

I am faithfully and fully executing what I feel is my proper duty to God, which is none. The conflict is not within myself,but with what others assume is my duty.

When the Boy Scouts were established in 1908 (100 YEARS AGO) the scout oath clearly included the phrase "I will do my duty to God..." This part of the oath has always been in there, like it or not, and it is noteworthy that you would be willing to stand up for your belief, or in this case lack-of-belief. However, in scouting, a belief in God is a core belief. I am sure there are other organizations where this belief is not mandatory - and you could find acceptance there.

On another note also regarding the Boy Scouts:

As an Eagle Scout and one who avidly supports the Boy Scouts, I am very disappointed at how the Boy Scouts have become portrayed in the media.

As far as sexual orientation goes, why can't they not allow homosexual scoutmasters if that is their belief? They don't allow females do they? So what if they don't allow gay scoutmasters? You wouldn't let your 15 year old daughter and her friends go camping in the same tent as your hetero-sexual neighbor from next door would you? This is the dilemma the Boy Scouts are in and it has more to do with sleeping arrangements than it does with tolerance.

Cub Scouts begin when they are 8. Boy Scouts begin when they are 11 years old.
Scouting is a great organization. At 8-17 years old, scouts do not need to declare their sexual orientation because they are children/boys. Why the pressure to do so? Scouting is about teaching young boys about being trustworthy, loyal, friendly, helpful, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, neat and reverent. In fact, I'd say, it helps kids keep their minds off sex.

There is no other organization, that I know of, that is attempting to build well-rounded, civic-minded individuals the way the Boy Scouts are. It teaches kids to be civic minded and learn life enhancing skills (minus the playstation). Has anyone seen the merit badge list? Detractors, look at the merit badge list and tell me if there is another organization teaching such skills to young boys.

http://www.usscouts.org/meritbadges.asp

This is a phenominal organization and they definitely have my support!

I believe in what BSA has to offer kids and I believe it is a good way to build community involvement, something sorely lacking in many communities. If I didn't appreciate the organization I would not be affiliated in any fashion.

Again, the real conflict is not between me and BSA, but is an anticipated conflict with those in the organization who will judge my understanding of my duty to God as insufficient. With regard to the BSA, I do not think it's necessary to make any statement regarding belief. It is not, from my experience, a valuable contributing portion of the BSA ideals. Its' vestigial.

[Eph]

Frankly, I will not support the Boy Scouts because of their discriminatory practices, against homosexuals and against atheists.

Then by your definition, one could argue that you shouldn't support Judaism either, after all they don't allow atheists to be members. Are they discriminatory?

All organizations have criteria for membership, and, therefore, some type of discrimination.

Unfortunately, the world we live in is forcing tolerance at all levels, like the gustapo. Message to Boy Scouts: Get on the bus, or else we will make everyone think you are racist pigs!

My belief in tolerance includes a mutual respect and a difference of opinion - as long as no one is getting hurt. This extends to religions and organizations like the Boy Scouts.