Why be good?

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:13 pm

'Diogenes took a journey once and came to a stop when he reached the steep bank of a deeply flowing river, where his progress was obstructed. A local man, who was used to crossing the water at that place, saw Diogenes was perplexed. So he went up to him, lifted him on his shoulders and obligingly carried him to the other side.
Once they had reached the other side, Diogenes began reproaching himself for his poverty, which prevented him from showing his gratitude for this favour from his benefactor. While he was pre-occupied with this dilemma, the local man saw another traveller who could not cross, ran up to him and began to carry him over as well.
Diogenes reproached him and said:
"I am not grateful for what you did to me, for I see it was not an act of judgement on your part but a manic compulsion which makes you do what you do.' - Aesop's fables.

Now I hear comments about those who feel so great about not needing any purpose in life and that they don't need any reason to stop themselves from doing wrong or do something right. If that's the case what if it is just some compulsion they have, and is it really all that righteous?

olivergringold · Post by **olivergringold** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:20 am

Doing the "right" thing is not a measurable quantity. If it is not evil, then by definition it is good or, at bare minimum, neutral. It all depends on how you psychologically approach a situation. If I push a kid out of the way from a speeding bus, but was masochistic to begin with, is it still good? If I slipped on a banana peel and inadvertently pushed the kid out of the way, is it still good? It doesn't matter...as long as evil did not take place, there is room for a clever thinker to derive some good. And sometimes even amidst evil.

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:57 am

as long as evil did not take place, there is room for a clever thinker to derive some good. And sometimes even amidst evil.

What about that other tale, the one where it's a scorpion that gets a fox to help him cross, but the scorpion stings him out of compulsion, even if they both drown.

"Evil" took place; someone was killed for no reason.

The scorpion, however, couldn't control himself.

Maybe this makes it a bad creature.

Or maybe it wasn't his fault, in which case why should those who do "good" out of pure impulse get the credit similairly?

Also on a side note, I don't think the absense of wrongdoing makes a right. A person doing nothing can cause more harm than not doing something. Yes, he didn't do anything, but that doesn't make it right. Also, if a person does do something considered wrong the person himself and/ or others might consider his actions to be right. Which tends to make the whole concept of "good/ evil" moot; it is simply a matter of who's morality you adopt, if at all.

olivergringold · Post by **olivergringold** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:07 am

If you are drowning, and I can't swim, there's very little I can do to help you that would not put my own life at risk. If I were to go out of my way for you it would indeed be altruistic, but there's no particular evil if I decide to save myself and let you die. Narcissism perhaps, and maybe even cynicism depending on my disposition, but not evil.

As for compulsive evil, it is just that. It's out of the control of the individual. If my car's gas pedal is out of whack, and I give you a ride home because you got hammered, and my car guns forward as you wobble in front of my vehicle, I wasn't being evil. I was trying, and failing, to be good. If the scorpion, too, drowns, then it isn't evil...it's a tragedy.

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:26 am

If you are drowning, and I can't swim, there's very little I can do to help you that would not put my own life at risk. If I were to go out of my way for you it would indeed be altruistic, but there's no particular evil if I decide to save myself and let you die. Narcissism perhaps, and maybe even cynicism depending on my disposition, but not evil.

But if someone was injured just outside of a hosiptal and the hospital did not do anything, it is very likely the hospital would be sued.

I was trying, and failing, to be good. If the scorpion, too, drowns, then it isn't evil...it's a tragedy.

Then perhaps all of life is a tragedy, everyone doing only what they are compelled to do.

Or, if you want to be optimistic, it could be a comedy. Everything always tends to have an ironic twist to it.

olivergringold · Post by **olivergringold** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:30 am

In my example I could not swim. If I were an Olympic Gold Medalist it would have been a different story, and rescuing you would not have been a risk so much as an obvious gesture. Hence the hospital analogy.

And as for your second comment, Orson Scott Card put it best: "The Universe is statistically more likely to be ironic than not."

sledheavy · Post by **sledheavy** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:44 pm

I think religion congegates way too much about interior motives. Frankly I give more credit to those who actually have logic in their actions than principle in their decision making.

That's just my opinion.

You technically can't be controlled by EVERYTHING you do. But you can consider what you're going to get back...

I hate to admit it, but I'm coming dangerously close to that stupid movie/ book: the secret.

I. hate. it. so. much.

it needs to be cast into the fiery depths of literatory hell.

But it's right about one thing. What you put out, you get back.

If people consider the consequences rather than whether or not it were good or evil we'd find a little more out about ourselves. We can't simply go off a basis of analogies. People just tend to react sometimes.

Either way, that Orson Scott quote is great.

AClockWorkOrange · Post by **AClockWorkOrange** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:18 am

i help people becuase i am selfish.

regardless of satisfaction, reward, or recognition, i like to possitivly impact other peoples' lives, becuase me doing something possitive for someone is a huge boost to my ego.

sledheavy · Post by **sledheavy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:34 am

AClockWorkOrange wrote:i help people becuase i am selfish.

regardless of satisfaction, reward, or recognition, i like to possitivly impact other peoples' lives, becuase me doing something possitive for someone is a huge boost to my ego.

LMAO.

bravo.

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:23 pm

Never read the book I'm afraid

But it's right about one thing. What you put out, you get back.

But it isn't that easy. If say I do give to charity it isn't because I want someone to give something to me. And if I punch someone in the face I may not really care about the consequences; getting punched back. What if I'm a masochist who wants so much "getting back" to me? What about all those cases where people get away with what they do, or get rewarded for it? What if someone did something that was right in another's eyes and get rewarded for it yet another person sees whta the first person did was wrong?