Without God Life Has No Purpose

[man]

I Googled that phrase and came up with this.

https://www.google.com/#q=without+god+l ... no+purpose

This is what religious people are being taught by their leaders. So we have all these people walking around thinking that there is an empty hole inside them that can only be filled by god and without god there lives have no purpose or meaning.

The thing that strikes me as being strange is I have always regarded all religions as myth and I am not a believer of any of them, but at the same time I don't have this empty hole inside me they talk about. I have never felt that my life has no purpose or meaning and in fact all of the things that these religious people say I need don't ever even cross my mind.

There is so much interesting REAL stuff to learn that I am so busy reading, working or doing whatever I happen to be interested in at the moment to have time to even think about this hole I am supposed to have inside me that I can't find. If anything I need a bigger hole to fit all of the things that I occupy myself with, my hole runneth over!

Anyway, I started thinking about teaching people that nonsense and it struck me as being a cruel thing to do. It's tantamount to saying, hey there is something wrong with you (when there isn't) and then telling them that you have the cure.

The phrase snake oil salesman comes to mind.

[Neatras]

If, without God, we could build a world without violence, we would have done so by now.

I don't see how this is a conclusion that can be drawn from any existing evidence.

Animals who live in constrained environments with limited resources develop competitive behaviors. Competitive behaviors can manifest in a variety of situations. Under the assumption that our cultures and lineage are predisposed towards violence, there would have to be a very obvious reason why violence should be removed from society, with or without godly influence.

[Wissing]

[Replying to Neatras]

From your previous post, I thought maybe you had a problem with violence. Now it seems like you're saying that you can't see a very obvious reason why violence should be removed from society.

If that's the case, why do you have a problem with God being violent?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 19 by Neatras]

Don't sweep it under the rug. If all the violence in the world happened for no purpose, that would be the tragedy.

Why is it that everything has to be beautiful and wonderful? Reality is not always beautiful and wonderful. Sometimes it is cruel and unjust. Evolution is often cruel and unjust, but evolution has no purpose. It is what it is. It that really so hard to accept?

If God is good, then his wrath happens for a good purpose. The death and injustice around us is not meaningless. It's not all for nothing. There is a greater good.

And it also sounds very much like wishful thinking. Why must we make everything about fluffy kittens and snow flakes? Reality isn't fluffy kittens and snow flakes. Reality can sometimes be a lot darker. Some may not like to acknowledge that and may want to make up Gods and things to make it seem not quite so bad. I just don't see why its necessary. Life is great, despite the negatives. It can be full of purpose without having to put magical beings into the middle of it all.

[Wissing]

The existence of God means there is a purpose to all that happens. Why is that important? I don't know. Most people I know seem to want to live for some purpose. I have a hard time believing that you actually don't want your life to mean something.

In any case, that purpose is not fluffy kittens and snowflakes. For a lot of people, the existence of a just God means eternal damnation. If anything, belief in God is a sobering reality, compared to the "opiate" of believing I'll never have to answer for my misdeeds.

[KenRU]

The existence of God means there is a purpose to all that happens. Why is that important? I don't know. Most people I know seem to want to live for some purpose.

I give my life purpose.

I have a hard time believing that you actually don't want your life to mean something.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what my life means is up to me. That meaning, as seen by my wife, son and family, has value to me.

No imaginary being required.

In any case, that purpose is not fluffy kittens and snowflakes. For a lot of people, the existence of a just God means eternal damnation.

That is one scary proposition, no? Given that the criteria for eternal damnation is completely unknowable.

Believing that your version of this imaginary being insulates you from eternal damnation does indeed create a "fluffy kitten and snowflake" theme. But what if one of the other religions is right and yours is wrong? Then it suddenly becomes scary.

If anything, belief in God is a sobering reality, compared to the "opiate" of believing I'll never have to answer for my misdeeds.

I certainly don't believe that I don't have to answer for my misdeeds. If I behave poorly, I set a poor example for my son. I value how my son and wife see me as a person. I value my freedom, not wanting to commit crimes and go to jail. I also recognize that treating people how I like to be treated results in a better society (in general).

No imaginary being required.

That is the sobering reality.

Anything else is wish-thinking or fear-mongering.

-all the best

[Wissing]

[Replying to post 25 by KenRU]

Faith is not an insulator. The bible defines faith in terms of action throughout the old and new testaments. (Chronicles 28:19, Matthew 7:15-27, James 2, Mark 1:14-15)

For instance in Chronicles 28:19 it says "For the Lord humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had made Judah act sinfully and had been very unfaithful to the Lord."

A sinful act is an act of unfaith. Again in James,

From James 2 (ESV) (emphasis mine):
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness�—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Jesus doesn't just say "believe", he says "repent and believe". A person who claims to believe but goes on doing evil without resolving to improve cannot be considered faithful. The very definition of faith involves action. It is therefore a testable and knowable criterion.

An unfaithful person can do good deeds, but those deeds (as with the pharisees, scribes, lawyers, etc) are a show. A repentant heart does not flaunt its righteousness. You may have a family. It's good to have a wife and a son, and to cherish those relationships, and to want the best for the ones you love. But those things don't make you a righteous person. The repentant heart Jesus asks for is one, like the tax collector, that admits its brokenness and turns and follows Jesus because it needs healing. Not one that claims it's already fine. Good deeds don't make up for bad deeds.

[Neatras]

An unfaithful person can do good deeds, but those deeds (as with the pharisees, scribes, lawyers, etc) are a show.

The very unsubtle display of condescension is really telling. To a Christian, such a phrase as the one above would seem sensible or even compassionate to convey.

But to people who don't believe what you believe, that is a huge insult. And you would do well to keep that in mind when you're out in circles where people don't calmly swallow what you have to say.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 25 by KenRU]

Faith is not an insulator.

Agreed, picking the right religion (if there even is one) is though.

The bible defines faith in terms of action throughout the old and new testaments. (Chronicles 28:19, Matthew 7:15-27, James 2, Mark 1:14-15)

Faith vs. Good Works - a conversation for another thread I assume?

For instance in Chronicles 28:19 it says "For the Lord humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had made Judah act sinfully and had been very unfaithful to the Lord."

A sinful act is an act of unfaith. Again in James,

From James 2 (ESV) (emphasis mine):
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness�—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Jesus doesn't just say "believe", he says "repent and believe". A person who claims to believe but goes on doing evil without resolving to improve cannot be considered faithful. The very definition of faith involves action. It is therefore a testable and knowable criterion.

IF your religion is the "correct" one. You can be no more sure of this than a Muslim, Hindu or an Aboriginal Pygmy.

An unfaithful person can do good deeds, but those deeds (as with the pharisees, scribes, lawyers, etc) are a show.

Sorry, I call BS here. It is the height of arrogance to say you know why I (or any other non-believer for that matter) does a good deed. I strive to be a good person not because of my fear of god or punishment, but because that is who I want to be, both for myself and my family.

That certainly seems to be a better motive then the selfish one you assert, no?

A repentant heart does not flaunt its righteousness.

Who's flaunting?

You may have a family. It's good to have a wife and a son, and to cherish those relationships, and to want the best for the ones you love. But those things don't make you a righteous person.

Who said anything about righteousness?

I strive to be a good person. An honest person. A good husband, and father. Righteous? I'll need your definition of that word if I'm to tell you whether or not I even want to be it.

The repentant heart Jesus asks for is one, like the tax collector, that admits its brokenness and turns and follows Jesus because it needs healing. Not one that claims it's already fine.

Everyone should strive to be a better person. In this context, we agree.

Good deeds don't make up for bad deeds.

Depends who you are trying to make them up to, doesn't it? In your version of Christianity (I assume) one needs to do as you have outlined in order to please god and get into heaven.

But I have no such need because I don't believe there is a god or heaven. But I do have a family and a conscience I have to live with. And If I commit a "misdeed" it is to them (my family and conscience) that I must "make it up to".

That is the sobering reality that many people live in. No fantastical claims necessary to be a good person, and to live accordingly.

Any assertion that my life has no purpose because it does not have religion/god/Jesus is nothing short of arrogance, naiveté, presumptuousness and callousness.

[4insight]

I don't understand why there are Christians who think that without God there is no purpose.

This was my purpose as a Christian:

Doing God's work through the ministries I was involved in.
Being a witness to Jesus when it comes to work colleagues, friends and families.
Becoming a better Christian and more Christlike.
Travelling as much of the world as possible to see what God has created
Being a great Christian father
Being a great Christian partner
Writing my books (with the hope that I can glorify God in them)


Now that I am no longer a Christian, here are my purposes in life.

Being a productive member of society
Being a good example when it comes to work colleagues, friends and families.
Becoming a better person and improving myself
Travelling as much of the world as possible to see what evolution has produced.
Being a great father
Being a great partner
Writing my books (with the hope that people will read them)

All that's happened is that God has been removed from my purposes.

And this is the thing that I see. The only difference between a Christian and an Atheist is that the Christian believes God is the one who gave them their purposes in life.

What is "good" ? God had written the Laws to let the people to know what can cause harm and what cannot cause it. It says that the people did not know from right and wrong. But since He laws were established, It has taught us how to be productive citizens. And now some of us makes an effort to help one another and not to hurt anyone's feelings. But then there are still some generations that did not kept his teachings. But you must give God all of the credit for the reason why you are trying to live righteously. Because without His teachings, what will you be doing at the moment? Before the Laws, that it were normal to have sex with you Kin-folks and animals. But until we had received the Laws, it has turn some of our hearts from that direction. You might stray away into the valley for a moment but seeing all the ones that has never known the scriptures will cause you to turn back because you know from right and wrong, and seeing everyone doing unlawful acts will make you leave from them because you are not accustom to it. And so you should be thankful that the laws were brought to us, or else you would be making love every night to your mom and dad.



Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

This is what was going on before the laws were given....

Genesis 19:36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.

History says that Nimrod married his mother Semiramis. The name Semiramis is a later Hellenized form of the Sumerian name ‘Sammur-amat’, or ‘gift of the sea.’ http://stepintothestory.ca/know-nimrod-married-mother/

[Wissing]

[Replying to post 27 by Neatras]

You're right, I shouldn't have implied that the good deeds of nonbelievers are always a show. I apologize. I'm not trying to scare you and insult you. I'm trying to be honest about what the bible actually says. It convicts me as much as anybody. I'm just as broken as anybody else. (This also goes to KenRU).

I do think that good deeds can often be a show. Haven't you seen this from colleagues? Coworkers? Family? Certainly you can at least think of religious people who put on a show of righteousness. I think it's not limited to religious people. We all tend to put on a show of righteousness in order to seem good to other people. I do this all the time, and I'm trying to improve. When I first went to work at my current job, I would often arrive late. I would then stay late to try to make up for it. I was always sure to send my boss an email about something I had done that day (even though he had already left), with a time-stamp an hour after I was supposed to leave, to make sure somebody knew I had stayed late. I want credit. But really, it's a show. The true problem here is that I was showing up late every day. Instead of trying to make up for it, I should have just... gotten to work on time. This requires confession and repentance. I can't just lump 10 good deeds on top of one bad one to cover it up. It doesn't work like that. One sin is still a problem, no matter how many good deeds are there next to it.

Notice (below, if you don't mind reading a little) how Jesus has love for this man, even though the man is not good. And how the man tries to justify himself in vain.

(from Mark 10, AMP)

17 As He was leaving on His journey, a man ran up and knelt before Him and asked Him, “Good Teacher [You who are essentially good and morally perfect], what shall I do to inherit eternal life [that is, eternal salvation in the Messiah’s kingdom]?� 18 Jesus said to him, “[c]Why do you call Me good? No one is [essentially] good [by nature] except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not testify falsely, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’� 20 And he replied to Him, “Teacher, I have [carefully] kept all these [commandments] since my [d]youth.� 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love (high regard, compassion) for him, and He said to him, “You lack one thing: go and sell all your property and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have [abundant] treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [becoming My disciple, believing and trusting in Me and walking the same path of life that I walk].� 22 But the man was saddened at Jesus’ words, and he left grieving, because he owned much property and had many possessions [which he treasured more than his relationship with God].

Jesus didn't tell us about eternal damnation in order to scare us or offend us. He told us that because, like an honest physician, he cares too much about us to conceal our cancer. Sin is a cancer, and if we don't admit it, we can't overcome it. There is healing available to all those who repent and believe in Him. It's like what 4insight said about "turning our hearts" in a new direction. It's possible. It's observable.[/code]