Whats the nonreligious anti-abortion argument

[jgh7]

I understand the religious arguments against abortion. It's basically something along the lines of God deeming a human life as sacred and a human life comes into existence at the moment of conception.

But whats the nonreligious argument against abortion? Is it pretty much the same thing? Actually, I'm going to horrify people even more and ask what the nonreligious argument is against killing a new born infant if one doesn't want to keep it.

I don't intend to paint myself as a monster, but just to understand the logic behind it. I will argue the side of it being no big deal just for the sake of making some sense behind my stance.

----My argument----

Most people don't think it a big deal for a sperm to die. Nor do they think it a big deal for a bug to be squished.

It's because these are lower life-forms that cant really think or recognize their existence, they live merely as a sort of pre-programmed entity. But I think science has equated a newborn baby to be very similar in that it merely has reflexes and pre-progammed instincts. Assuming it was carried out painlessly, what is wrong with killing this kind of lifeform?

Is the only response an appeal to emotion and outer appearances? The baby looks like a human, so it's horrible to kill it. In the same way it's horrible to kill cute animals rather than ugly animals. In the same way we rationalize it's no big deal to abort the fetus so long as it doesn't look like a human, but once it starts looking like a human it becomes bad to abort it, even though its level of thought is no different.

Or is there a more logical counterargument?

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 20 by shnarkle]

I essentially agree with everything you wrote, except I am not sure I agree that you can compare slavery with abortion.

But you are right that to argue either, you will need a clear definition of what a "person" really is.

The reason I do not think the two compare is because the purpose of abortion and slavery is very different.

The purpose of abortion is to end a life process you have started.
The purpose of slavery is to use a life to make money.

Abortion is sure to end in life termination, slavery isn't.
Slavery is about money, abortion isn't.

Life and money is not the same value.

But in principle of force, then yes the two can be compared. Both are about force, which is why both are immoral.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 20 by shnarkle]

I essentially agree with everything you wrote, except I am not sure I agree that you can compare slavery with abortion.

But you are right that to argue either, you will need a clear definition of what a "person" really is.

The reason I do not think the two compare is because the purpose of abortion and slavery is very different.

The purpose of abortion can vary widely, and to perhaps a lesser degree so can slavery.

The purpose of abortion is to end a life process you have started.
The purpose of slavery is to use a life to make money.

The result of abortion is a dead baby. The purpose of the abortion could have been to save or make money; to prevent stretch marks; to save a career; to spite the father or the mother in law; to fit into a bikini; etc.

Slavery can have many purposes such as taking up slack in a failing economy. When a society or civilization is crumbling, and people are becoming desperate those who need work done, and those who need to survive will engage in slavery because there simply are no other options left. During and shortly after the abolition of slavery there were a lot of people who would have loved to trade places with slaves that had a roof over their head, food in their belly, clothes on their back, even a little grass to smoke before they went to work.

When a tribe or country takes over a weaker competing one, after the conquerors have absorbed the treasure and resources of the conquered, they have only a few options left when dealing with the conquered people themselves. They can kill them, but if they're taking over the territory, then they have to deal with the stench or spend a lot of time dealing with the corpses. They can send them off to fend for themselves, or they can enslave them; put them to work. Different civilizations dealt with slavery in vastly different ways. Some allowed slaves to become free after a certain term of slavery, others had the opportunity to remain a slave if they wanted to. This seems counterintuitive at first glance, but it's a lot like career criminals who can't find work and can't really deal with life so they just rob a liquor store or rape someone so they can go back to prison. There's this perception that beatings and whippings are standard procedure for slave owners, but this isn't necessarily the case at all. There's also a fine line between slavery, indentured servitude and even being a public servant. These all can serve different functions.

If you're homeless, starving, naked, and ignorant with no skills, slavery could be a major improvement to one's standard of living and lifestyle. Speaking of lifestyle, there's also those who may be the hard core masochist looking to make a serious commitment to bondage; why not let them sign a contract for a few years or so?

Abortion is sure to end in life termination, slavery isn't.
Slavery is about money, abortion isn't.

I'm not saying this is the best argument, but there have been a number of failed abortions where the baby lived, so while things may seem certain nothing's written in stone. Well, maybe except or that pesky commandment to refrain from murder

Life and money is not the same value.

But in principle of force, then yes the two can be compared. Both are about force, which is why both are immoral.

In a religious context, life and money do not have the same value. Within a non religious setting the price may vary, but it could also be the same. We just had some news a short while ago about selling of baby parts by Planned Parenthood and price was a big issue. The people at Planned Parenthood were selling baby parts well below the going rate. Why? Because they weren't operating as a private enterprise in a free market. They could afford to sell their wares for whatever they thought was a good price. If they hadn't had government money to rely on they would have charged considerably more, or been fired.

Again, I think an argument could be made for voluntary slavery. Perhaps even an argument that the slave has the possibility of becoming freed or maybe escaping. This isn't the case with abortion though.

[shnarkle]

I understand the religious arguments against abortion. It's basically something along the lines of God deeming a human life as sacred and a human life comes into existence at the moment of conception.

But whats the nonreligious argument against abortion? Is it pretty much the same thing? Actually, I'm going to horrify people even more and ask what the nonreligious argument is against killing a new born infant if one doesn't want to keep it.

I don't intend to paint myself as a monster, but just to understand the logic behind it. I will argue the side of it being no big deal just for the sake of making some sense behind my stance.

----My argument----

Most people don't think it a big deal for a sperm to die. Nor do they think it a big deal for a bug to be squished.

It's because these are lower life-forms that cant really think or recognize their existence, they live merely as a sort of pre-programmed entity. But I think science has equated a newborn baby to be very similar in that it merely has reflexes and pre-progammed instincts. Assuming it was carried out painlessly, what is wrong with killing this kind of lifeform?

Is the only response an appeal to emotion and outer appearances? The baby looks like a human, so it's horrible to kill it. In the same way it's horrible to kill cute animals rather than ugly animals. In the same way we rationalize it's no big deal to abort the fetus so long as it doesn't look like a human, but once it starts looking like a human it becomes bad to abort it, even though its level of thought is no different.

Or is there a more logical counterargument?

if we were to see spontaneous abortions taking place in nature we would naturally think that the environment is becoming unconducive to reproduction, but if we were to see another species intentionally causing miscarriages this would seem to indicate some defective mutation causing this most unnatural behavior. It could also be some type of response to cull the defects from the herd or perhaps a response to overpopulation, or just some inferior mutation. This could be the case with humanity as well, it's just not the best use of resources to spend so much money on these procedures.

Most babies of lots of species seem cute, but confining this to humanity we can see pretty quickly that useless eaters and the feeble minded as well as all other undesirables can be a huge burden on society. Some may see abortion as a good place to start, but is it really the best place to start?

Getting rid of the useless eaters and the feeble minded themselves can be quite inexpensive. Once they're gone, there's really no need for abortion in the first place. If someone doesn't want children, sterilization is a much better option in that it eliminates the possibility of abortion after costly abortion. It also eliminates the factor of human error involved in implementing contraception, or the need for contraception in the first place. Now some may argue that this eliminates the possibility of having children. Hardly, those who want children can have their sperm and eggs preserved for when they're ready to start a family. Only those who can afford to do this should be allowed to. The rest should be either sterilized or simply eliminated altogether as soon as possible. What better way to eliminate poverty than to simply eliminate the impoverished? They have nothing to contribute to society except as an unnecessary outlet for charity. The charitable thing to do would be to put them out of their misery.

You make a good point in regards to the fact that they can't think or recognize their own existence, but why stop there? The fact is that no one can explain their own existence, and the only people who can even come close are those with superior powers of observation, i.e. the scientific community. In case anyone was wondering, this eliminates the dilemma of "who decides"?

The cost of abortions alone puts an expensive and unnecessary burden on society. The only redeeming thing I can see about abortion is that it reveals a sort of insanity in those who seek them. This may be enough to warrant keeping it as an option for those who are too feeble minded to figure out how seek out better methods in that it reveals who these people are so that they can be dealt with, preferably at the same time as the sought after abortion; a "two-for one"

This is where I would start with non religious reasons against abortion.

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 22 by shnarkle]

Would you care to expand with examples of other TRUE purposes for slavery or abortion if you think they can vary so widely? If there is so many it should not be tough for you to give me 5 of each. I would like to see them.

If the purpose of abortion is to save money, all you would have to do to prevent that would be to use prevention, how tough would that be? Abortions cost far more than condoms!

abortion could have been to save or make money

How can you MAKE money on abortions?

You say slavery can have the purpose of taking up slack in failing economy...but DUH! economy IS about money and that is EXACTLY what I said slavery is about, so this is not another purpose, this is the same purpose I gave which only helps prove MY point. And the same goes improving one's standard of living and lifestyle that is about money too.

Care to try again? You did not think to hard before you answered this one did you?

I wrote: "Abortion is sure to end in life termination, slavery isn't.
Slavery is about money, abortion isn't."

To which you replied

there have been a number of failed abortions where the baby lived

Since when is FAILED abortion abortion? If this is YOUR best argument, then we better stop if you are not prepared to concede defeat, for so far you have giving nothing against my argument and in fact just given more evidence to support it, arguing as if you were against it by not paying attention to what I write or manipulate the meaning of it.

Not much of an argument!

About religious context, you again point to money which was MY argument and your argument of religion in itself is irrelevant since I don't believe in religion and we are debating abortion here, NOT RELIGION!

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 22 by shnarkle]

Would you care to expand with examples of other TRUE purposes for slavery or abortion if you think they can vary so widely? If there is so many it should not be tough for you to give me 5 of each. I would like to see them.

I'm not sure why you're asking this, but okay. I assume by "purpose" you mean reasons to get an abortion.

Purposes for abortion.

1. The baby is unwanted.
2. Can't afford the baby
3.Don't want to lose career.
4 Not interested in a lifestyle change that includes raising a child
5. Don't want to disfigure the body
6. The market for fetal tissue
7. overpopulation.
8. wrong sex
9.as a means of sterilization.
10. to get rid of weaker potential members of society, e.g. mentally or physically disabled,

Purposes for slavery:

1. Economics.
2. as a means of helping the disadvantaged, homeless, out of work, keeping people off the streets, etc.
3.as repayment for money already paid out. which would inevitably lead to--
4. welfare recipients taking much more aggressive steps to look for work.
5.job or apprenticeship training
6. as a deterrent against criminal activity

If the purpose of abortion is to save money, all you would have to do to prevent that would be to use prevention, how tough would that be? Abortions cost far more than condoms!

abortion could have been to save or make money

How can you MAKE money on abortions?

If the government were to get out of funding abortion clinics and these clinics were to convert to the private enterprise, the market would decide how much an abortion would cost. They would have to turn a profit to stay in business. Those businesses that were able to keep their doors open would make money; and lots of it.

I'm not sure what the statistics are currently but at one time they were around 1.6 million a year. I think those numbers have dropped to less than a million; perhaps as low as 7 or 8 hundred thousand in the continental US. This is ridiculous. These are people who are either too stupid to understand the concept or just too lazy. Either way, condoms, pills, etc. isn't working for them. Sterilization would be ideal, and abortion is a great way to accomplish this as well.

Body parts along with fetal tissue could be a thriving business if it weren't for the fact that these facilities are backed by tax funded subsidies. They don't have to make a profit so they don't care what they sell this stuff for.. Obviously if the number of abortions goes down because of forced sterilization either through having their tubes tied or because of the abortion itself, the profits will drop considerably for parts due to a reduced inventory. Then again, who knows, the prices could sky rocket.

Moreover, with a greater percentage of the population sterilized, even the lower cost of contraception will reap savings as well. No cost for contraception and no cost for abortions will put a big chunk of change back in the tax payers pocket. Not only are we saving money on the procedures, but we also have a dwindling population of poor and impoverished people draining our resources as well.

So, no matter how you slice it; it's about money.

You say slavery can have the purpose of taking up slack in failing economy...but DUH! economy IS about money and that is EXACTLY what I said slavery is about, so this is not another purpose, this is the same purpose I gave which only helps prove MY point. And the same goes improving one's standard of living and lifestyle that is about money too.


Care to try again? You did not think to hard before you answered this one did you?

Sure, getting rid of 1.5 million people who are just going to be a drain on society will bring effectively the same results in that these are not going to be people we need to find jobs for in the future. You said that abortion was about terminating a life while slavery was about money. I simply pointed out along with a number of examples that abortion is also about money. I've just added a few more as well.

About religious context, you again point to money which was MY argument and your argument of religion in itself is irrelevant since I don't believe in religion and we are debating abortion here, NOT RELIGION!

I wasn't making a religious argument. I was pointing out the restrictions evident in the religious point to contrast the non-religious. Here's what I posted:

"In a religious context, life and money do not have the same value." So you see it isn't about money within a religious context. Think about it. I'm pointing out that it IS about money, so I follow that up with this:

" Within a non religious setting the price may vary, but it could also be the same. We just had some news a short while ago about selling of baby parts by Planned Parenthood and price was a big issue. The people at Planned Parenthood were selling baby parts well below the going rate. Why? Because they weren't operating as a private enterprise in a free market. They could afford to sell their wares for whatever they thought was a good price. If they hadn't had government money to rely on they would have charged considerably more, or been fired. "

Moreover, we could add the items I just added above as well which are based on money, economics etc.

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 25 by shnarkle]

Yes by purpose I mean reasons or purpose. Purpose is defined "the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists." So either word applies.

I asked for more reasons to illustrate why I think that the many reasons you would try to list was actually just few or ONE reason.

Abortion reasons.
1. Baby unwanted

This does not explain WHY the baby is unwanted, nor does it justify abortion, because if the baby is unwanted then prevention should have been used to prevent being pregnant.
2. Can't afford the Baby

Again I don't think this is a very solid reason to justify abortion. For how many countries do you know where babies die because a mother can not afford to take care of her? I have never even heard of that happening. We have not become so "inhumane" that we let innocent babies die because of money yet. So frankly I think this is a phony excuse which just covers over something else, and again if the baby is not wanted prevention can be used.

3. Don't want to loose career

This reason is really under the same hat as reason 2, for its about money.

4. Not interested in a life-style change, this I would put in under the same hat as your purpose 1 "not wanting the Baby" and again it does not justify abortion or not using prevention.

5. Don't want to disfigure the body. "disfigure" is quite a subjective term here which I have never heard used in the abortion argument, but even if it was one again it can be put as simply stating you don't really want the baby, for most of the body changes during pregnancy are not permanent, and again prevention can be used if this is such a concern.

6. Market for fetal tissue. Again not a reason I have heard before. What do you mean by market for fetal tissue? You mean to suggest that it can be good business to have an abortion and that you can make more selling fetal tissue than what it cost to have an abortion? If so I would like to see evidence of that, for this is news to me.

7. Overpopulation. This is not much of a reason at all. As much as there might be a argument for overpopulation the fact is that there is room enough and food enough for more people on the planet, and if this is a legit argument, then there should suddenly be a legit argument in killing infants like in China, or support more wars and terrorism as population control.
I think we both agree this is not a very strong argument.

8. Wrong sex can first be determined after several months (4-5) and by that time it is illegal and far more dangerous to abort. So if gender is such a big issue in a world where sex change is becoming more common then again there is not much argumentation for becoming pregnant in the first place.

9. As means of sterilization. ehhh..what? This one makes no sense to me, you don't need to be pregnant to get sterilization, so why on earth would this be a motivation?

10. To get rid of weaker potential members of society. You are really stretching now I can see, for this one is ridiculous. Wouldn't it be much easier to make sure that the weaker members were not in a creation process in the first place, than to start one to end it?

None of your 10 reasons to get an abortion justifies getting one, the last 5 reasons where really not very valid reasons, and the other 5 can be put in two categories of one being about money and the other being about life-style, which are both related but neither has any reason not to use prevention to prevent the abortion.

For slavery you state
1. Economics
2. Homeless/work (just another way to say economics)
3. Repayment/money (another way to say economics)
4. Welfare/work (yet another way to say economics)
5. Job/apprenticeship (And another way to say economics)
6. Deterrent against criminal activity....first argument NOT about economics, but not really a very thought out argument since slavery in itself is a crime.

So we have basically reasons for abortion
1. Starting to create a baby you don't want to finish create for economic or life-style reason because you were too irresponsible to use prevention.

And for slavery
1. We have as as stated just economics as the reason.

Since abortion cost money there is no reason to get pregnant for economic reasons, so obviously that leaves that abortion really happens because of a lifestyle choice in which unsafe sex is chosen perhaps for increased gratification against being responsible to use prevention.

That reason is no where near the same reason as the slavery reason we found.

And so as I stated before Slavery is not a correct comparison to abortion.

About the religious contra non-religious values none of them was mentioned in your 10 or 6 reasons, so you don't even yourself seem convinced that this is a argument to defend abortion, and that's because it isn't.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 25 by shnarkle]

Yes by purpose I mean reasons or purpose. Purpose is defined "the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists." So either word applies.

I asked for more reasons to illustrate why I think that the many reasons you would try to list was actually just few or ONE reason.

Abortion reasons.
1. Baby unwanted

This does not explain WHY the baby is unwanted, nor does it justify abortion, because if the baby is unwanted then prevention should have been used to prevent being pregnant.

Abortion isn't about what should have been done. It's about what needs to be done NOW. The condom broke. They are too stupid to figure out how to use contraception. They forgot to buy contraception and didn't want to "waste the moment' nor waste more money on more erectile dysfunction pills.

So I may have missed something here. Are you asking me for reasons for abortion in an ideal world? Because I'm giving you actual reasons. Women walk into abortion clinics and get abortions simply because they don't want the baby. They'll say things like: "I don't like IUD's, I can't remember to take the pills, I don't like shots, my boyfriend doesn't like condoms, he said he had a vasectomy, my father and uncle are disputing which one of them is the father and won't support me unless I get a paternity test, it was conceived on Friday the 13th, and that's bad luck..etc.".

2. Can't afford the Baby

Again I don't think this is a very solid reason to justify abortion. For how many countries do you know where babies die because a mother can not afford to take care of her? I have never even heard of that happening.

Well, evidently you don't watch much late night television because there are countless ads with people like Sally Struthers, Rob Reiner, etc. waking through slums with babies covered in flies. The nightly news shows pretty much the same thing in the middle east and Africa. The babies are born with AIDS because too many people think the contraception is tainted with poison. So we can add ignorance and superstition to the list as well.

Moreover, this reason isn't in regards to death in the first place. People are working minimum wage jobs and simply can't afford to feed themselves. A free abortion is a "no-brainer". We wouldn't have Planned Parenthood if this wasn't an issue.

We have not become so "inhumane" that we let innocent babies die because of money yet.

It is precisely because of money in many cases. They simply can't afford it. If it wasn't about money, then we wouldn't be funding Planned Parenthood in the first place. These people can't afford the abortions either. Planned Parenthood performs somewhere around 2 - 4 hundred thousand abortions a year on the tax payers dime. So it's all about money.

So frankly I think this is a phony excuse which just covers over something else, and again if the baby is not wanted prevention can be used.

The fact is that prevention either isn't being used, or it is being used improperly. The prevention is also free to those who can't afford it. For whatever insane reasons these sad excuses for humanity come up with, they simply aren't able or don't care to bother with preventative measures. To say that prevention would be a better way to go isn't in dispute. The fact is that it simply isn't working for a few hundred thousand people, if not more; a year.

3. Don't want to loose career

This reason is really under the same hat as reason 2, for its about money.

It could be, but not necessarily. People don't necessarily look at a career for the money. Some are looking for fame, reputation, personal development, etc. By the way, you just admitted that abortion isn't just about terminating a life. So you've changed your position.

4. Not interested in a life-style change, this I would put in under the same hat as your purpose 1 "not wanting the Baby" and again it does not justify abortion or not using prevention.

Not wanting a baby doesn't have to have anything to do with a lifestyle change. The woman could come in and say that it's a full moon and her coven is requesting the sacrifice of a virgin, since they can't find a virgin they requested the killing of her baby.

Having sex without getting pregnant is a lifestyle. When a woman does get pregnant, this is something she has to deal with at some point before she has to stop having sex. With our system of laws today, this is somewhere in between a day and nine months. For the woman, she simply gets the abortion when people stop having sex with her so she can continue to keep having sex. Again, condoms break, pills are forgotten, etc. accidents happen.

5. Don't want to disfigure the body. "disfigure" is quite a subjective term here which I have never heard used in the abortion argument, but even if it was one again it can be put as simply stating you don't really want the baby, for most of the body changes during pregnancy are not permanent, and again prevention can be used if this is such a concern

You keep bringing up prevention as if it can be used instead of an abortion. The fact is that people aren't using prevention. We aren't talking about offering people prevention as an alternative here. That ship sailed a long time ago. People have full access to all the preventative measures they want. They aren't taking advantage of any of it, at least around a million babies a year aren't prevented because of this inability to use them
.

6. Market for fetal tissue. Again not a reason I have heard before.

Fetal tissue has been in use since the 1930's.

What do you mean by market for fetal tissue? You mean to suggest that it can be good business to have an abortion and that you can make more selling fetal tissue than what it cost to have an abortion? If so I would like to see evidence of that, for this is news to me.

No, I mean that the fetal tissue is used to produce vaccines for things like chicken pox, shingles, rubella , polio, etc. These are all worth multiples of millions of dollars each. Woman are legally not allowed to even be asked if they'd like to have their aborted fetus used for research until after they've decided to have an abortion.

The prices are already high, if the government were to stop funding Planned Parenthood, and there were no one else to support them, they would be forced to turn a profit and they would have no problem doing so with the sale of fetal tissue. Medicines used for numerous diseases and disorders are being used that rely heavily on stem cells. Granted they don't have to be fetal cells, but the fact is that for some reason the people coming up with this stuff seem to prefer fetal stem cells. Here's just a partial list of examples from a few "mom and pop" corner store businesses trying to make a few bucks:

Senomyx Partner/ Products Developed & Discovered With Aborted Fetal Cell Lines

Pepsi Beverages No longer on the boycott list! Senomyx will not use aborted fetal cells in any of the PEPSICO research & development.

Kraft - Cadbury Adams LLC No longer on the boycott list! As of December 27, 2011 Kraft ended their contract with Senomyx and no product was brought to the market.

Firmenich: FreezeStorm products

Ajinomoto: North America spices and seasonings
 Aji-No-Moto – Umani seasoning  Hondashi – Flavor Seasoning  Techno-A – Savory Seasoning


Nestles Products ï‚· All refrigerated coffee creamers ï‚· Maggi Brand instant soups, bouillon cubes, ketchups, sauces, seasoning, instant noodles
Products That Contain Aborted Fetal Cells, Proteins, DNA
Neocutis Anti-Aging Skin Creams This company produces anti wrinkle creams that contain cells from a 14 week gestation aborted male baby. Following is the list of the creams:
ï‚· Bio-Gel, Prevedem, Journee ï‚· Bio-Serum, Lumiere ï‚· Bio Restorative Skin Cream



Vaccines Containing Aborted Fetal Material And the Manufacturers:
 Adenovirus 5,7 (Barr Laboratories )  MMR II: Measles + Mumps + Rubella (Merck)  ProQuad: MMR + Chickenpox (Merck)  Varivax: Chickenpox (Merck)  Pentacel: Polio + DTaP + HiB – (Sanofi Pasteur)  Vaqta: Hepatitis-A (Merck)  Havrix: Hepatitis-A (Glaxo SmithKline)  Twinrix: Hepatitis-A and B combo (Glaxo)  Zostavax: Shingles (Merck)  Imovax: Rabies (Sanofi Pasteur)  Acambis 1000: Smallpox (Acambis)
Other medicines: ï‚· rhFVIII, rhFVIX: Hemophilia (Octapharma) ï‚· G-CSF: White blood cell stimulant(Octapharma) ï‚· Pulmozyme: Cystic Fibrosis (Genentech) ï‚· Enbrel: Rheumatoid Arthritis (Amgen) ï‚· Abciximab/Repro (Eli Lilly) ï‚· Aranesp, Procrit Darbepoetin alfa Epogen, Epoetin alfa (Amgen)

7. Overpopulation. This is not much of a reason at all. As much as there might be a argument for overpopulation the fact is that there is room enough and food enough for more people on the planet, and if this is a legit argument, then there should suddenly be a legit argument in killing infants like in China, or support more wars and terrorism as population control.

Actually you just came up with yet another reason there. They do abort girls in China. They've been doing that for decades. Now they have an overabundance of single men. Yes, there is plenty of food for plenty more people. This doesn't look at the issue of the logistics of getting the food to the people. There are plenty of places with large populations of people with not enough to eat. The babies are dying, the people are dying. Here's one list:
Africa
Angola
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Central African Republic
Chad
Democratic Republic of Congo
Republic of Congo
Côte d’Ivoire
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Kenya
Lesotho
Liberia
Madagascar
Mali
Mauritania
Niger
Sierra Leone
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Tanzania
Uganda
Zimbabwe

Asia/Near East
Afghanistan
Indonesia
Iraq
Dem. People's Rep. of Korea
Lebanon
Mongolia
Nepal
Pakistan
Sri Lanka
Timor-Leste

Latin America/Caribbean
Colombia
Cuba
Haiti

Europe
Russian Federation (Chechnya)

8. Wrong sex can first be determined after several months (4-5) and by that time it is illegal and far more dangerous to abort.

It hasn't stopped China.

9. As means of sterilization. ehhh..what? This one makes no sense to me, you don't need to be pregnant to get sterilization, so why on earth would this be a motivation?

This is motivation for those who are paying for the impoverished masses that can't afford to pay for their own abortions. The abortions are the means to identify the "feeble minded" and sterilize them. The procedure can and does cause sterilization in a number of cases, but there's no reason why it can't be intentional as well.

10. To get rid of weaker potential members of society. You are really stretching now I can see, for this one is ridiculous. Wouldn't it be much easier to make sure that the weaker members were not in a creation process in the first place, than to start one to end it?

Of course! No argument there. That's not what we're dealing with. We're dealing with people who are already pregnant. If there were no pregnancies we wouldn't be debating this in the first place. If the weaker members of society were already sterilized, we'd have solved the problem. Of course there are always going to be exceptions which will have to be dealt with by the occasional abortion.

None of your 10 reasons to get an abortion justifies getting one,

Well, you were asking for reasons, not justification. Regardless, when dealing with morals and justification we are treading dangerously close to religious grounds. The religious are notorious for their moral superiority complexes.

And so as I stated before Slavery is not a correct comparison to abortion.

That's another issue which I already addressed, and compared the fact that the abortion issue revolves around the personal property rights of a woman to do with her body as she chooses. This is the exact same argument for justifying slavery. The slave owner is within his rights to do with his personal property as he so chooses.

About the religious contra non-religious values none of them was mentioned in your 10 or 6 reasons, so you don't even yourself seem convinced that this is a argument to defend abortion, and that's because it isn't.

I don't know what you're referring to with "religious contra non-religious values".

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 27 by shnarkle]

Abortion isn't about what should have been done. It's about what needs to be done NOW. The condom broke. They are too stupid to figure out how to use contraception. They forgot to buy contraception and didn't want to "waste the moment' nor waste more money on more erectile dysfunction pills. So I may have missed something here.

I don't doubt that you have, for defending stupidity, waste of money, not knowing how to use contraception, forgetfulness and reliance on pills is a rather hard thing to do

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 27 by shnarkle]

Abortion isn't about what should have been done. It's about what needs to be done NOW. The condom broke. They are too stupid to figure out how to use contraception. They forgot to buy contraception and didn't want to "waste the moment' nor waste more money on more erectile dysfunction pills. So I may have missed something here.

I don't doubt that you have, for defending stupidity, waste of money, not knowing how to use contraception, forgetfulness and reliance on pills is a rather hard thing to do

Now you're the one who is missing something. I'm not defending any of these reasons themselves. I'm simply pointing out that these are, in fact, the reasons that are being used. Not only are they being used, they are being justified by the people that use them, and the society as a whole, or at least the mainstream media which tells us that women should be able to have an abortion for ANY reason, e.g. "I don't want another girl."; "He's got that 'gay' gene".; "His toes look funny". etc.

Furthermore, you're the one who asked for this nonsense in the first place. Let's see you get creative and come up with five of each yourself wise guy. You think you know how to debate the issue from the other perspective any better than I have? Let's see YOU try. I'm not the one who thinks abortion should be used anyways so what's the point of this exercise of yours? To see if I can come up with a dozen reasons? I did that. Your turn.

You haven't even come up with any real reasons against abortion yet. All you've come up with is that prevention is a better option when it clearly doesn't work for almost a million a people a year. That's not a reason to keep trying to use prevention that doesn't work. Want to know why? Because we're still going to have the same million people coming in next year for their abortions. What then smart guy? Are you going to hand them a condom then? What's your solution to the hundreds of thousands of people who are already pregnant and don't want their babies? Are you going to force them to give birth? Are you going to force them to adopt? Are you going to force them to raise children when they probably can't even take care of themselves? Are you going to force others to take care of these children? Sounds like slavery to me. Huh, what do you know? No similarities between slavery and abortion? This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 29 by shnarkle]

Now you're the one who is missing something. I'm not defending any of these reasons themselves.

No rather you misunderstood that I was jesting/joking, just trying to lighten things up a bit

Not only are they being used, they are being justified by the people that use them, and the society as a whole, or at least the mainstream media which tells us that women should be able to have an abortion for ANY reason, e.g. "I don't want another girl."; "He's got that 'gay' gene".; "His toes look funny". etc.

Sure mate! I know these and other reasons are used, but are you assuming that all these reasons are honest, sincere and different reasons though they contract and evidence is to the contrary? I am not.

Furthermore, you're the one who asked for this nonsense in the first place.

When did I ask for nonsense? Please show evidence of this claim for I am fairly sure I have never done so

Let's see you get creative and come up with five of each yourself wise guy.

No! for you miss my point. My point was that there is NOT five points, so the fact that neither you or me can find five proves my point. Sure I would be honest enough to prove myself wrong if I really believed there was more...but I don't and every attempt I have made to do what you just did with the questioning I just did, has supported the conclusion that there is not more reasons

I'm not the one who thinks abortion should be used anyways so what's the point of this exercise of yours? To see if I can come up with a dozen reasons? I did that. Your turn.

haha...well I am not either, so why are we debating if we hold the same position? :p
I made the post first, and then you argued against me with claims of more reasons which I believe I have proved was NOT more reasons, defending my argument.

I do not know why you made that claim or what point you had in doing so, I sure hope you know :p

My point was simply to defend my argument and I believe I have done so