Isaac and Abraham

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:27 pm

The terrible dilemma of Abraham has haunted countless thinkers in history, the most famous of them being probably Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard. But I bet everyone--that is, except those who never had a belief in the Abrahamic God--has wondered how he or she would act in a situation where God tells you to kill an innocent, perhaps your only child. This is perhaps the most difficult question for believers. I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham (and please remember Abraham didn't know it was just a test) and that anyone who killed his own son today and told the police he had just followed God's orders would rightly be put in a mental institution for life.
I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

mujahid263 · Post by **mujahid263** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:33 am

If I were to have a child and God ordered me to kill my child, then I'd do so. BUT since there isn't any more prophets comin along, and I sure as Hell am not a prophet, I don't think God will be talking to me saying kill your kid.

And what would be the outcome of it all? If it isn't a test, the child is martyred an goes on to heaven whereas others have to work for it. Lucky break.

As for anyone claiming this now, I wouldn't beleive it for a second and I would do all in my power to prevent it. Even in Abarham's case, had I been around at the time and wasn't informed it was a test, I would've done all in my hands to stop it.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:20 am

mujahid263 wrote:If I were to have a child and God ordered me to kill my child, then I'd do so.

Any ideas on how you would know it was god telling you to do it? Even if the 'message' came in a 'supernatural' way. how could you be sure it was god and not some other supernatural being.

mujahid263 wrote: BUT since there isn't any more prophets comin along,

How do you know this? Haven't more prophets been prophesied?

mujahid263 wrote: And what would be the outcome of it all? If it isn't a test, the child is martyred an goes on to heaven whereas others have to work for it. Lucky break.

No the end product would be a young human being deprived of the potential of a full and potentially fullfilling life. As to the murderer...

mujahid263 wrote: As for anyone claiming this now, I wouldn't beleive it for a second and I would do all in my power to prevent it. Even in Abarham's case, had I been around at the time and wasn't informed it was a test, I would've done all in my hands to stop it.

What? And deny god?

mujahid263 · Post by **mujahid263** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:13 pm

Admin note: I have attempted to restore the original post prior to it being edited:

Any ideas on how you would know it was god telling you to do it?

1) I doubt God would.

2) If I didn\'t know 100% it was God, then I wouldn\'t do it...

some other supernatural being

What other supernatural beings are there?

How do you know this? Haven\'t more prophets been prophesied?

In the Bible, another prophet was prophecised. But I\'m Muslim, so I don\'t beleive in any more prophets.

What? And deny god?

I wouldn\'t be denying God. I don\'t beleive that God has me in mind as a prophet and hence I don\'t think God will be talking to me directly. Unless, like Abarham, I had been sure I was a prophet and I had 100% evidence of me being God\'s prophet and not someone elses tool, then I would have the knowledge not to do it. And it would be murder since God isn\'t talking to me, this was a hypothetical situation.

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:00 pm

mujahid263 wrote:

If I were to have a child and God ordered me to kill my child, then I'd do so. BUT since there isn't any more prophets comin along, and I sure as Hell am not a prophet, I don't think God will be talking to me saying kill your kid.

Wouldn't it seem a little strange to you for God to order such a thing? Wouldn't you wonder if you had gone nuts? On the other hand, why are you sure there will be no more prophets and why couldn't God choose you as the next prophet?

And what would be the outcome of it all? If it isn't a test, the child is martyred an goes on to heaven whereas others have to work for it. Lucky break.

No, the child is not martyred, because a martyr is someone who is killed for their religious beliefs, and in this case the child is killed because the father has certain religious beliefs--not the child. Actually the child is just murdered, and it is not at all certain that he or she would go to heaven, since--at least according to some people--one must absolutely have faith to go there and the child may or may not have it. It's not the child's faith that is tested, but the father's. Besides, what kind of a God would require you to kill the innocent? Maybe that kind of God will not send you to heaven after all.

As for anyone claiming this now, I wouldn't beleive it for a second and I would do all in my power to prevent it. Even in Abarham's case, had I been around at the time and wasn't informed it was a test, I would've done all in my hands to stop it.

I think you would do the right thing in trying to stop Abraham.

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:13 pm

mujahid263, something weird has happened. I was trying to reply to your post but I seem to have deleted part of it instead, Please accept my apologies!

I feel totally stupid. It's almost 1:25 AM here and I must be too sleepy to know what I'm doing. ](*,)

mujahid263 · Post by **mujahid263** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:55 pm

lol, oh well I'll type up what I can recall. Thank God for giving mankind the ability to remember, most of the time.

bernee51:

Any ideas on how you would know it was god telling you to do it? Even if the 'message' came in a 'supernatural' way. how could you be sure it was god and not some other supernatural being.

In Abarham's case he was 100% sure of his porphethood and the fact that the message was from God. I know 100% that I'm not a prophet, and I sure as Hell don't think I will be one. So I don't think God would be talking to me telling me to kill my child, it was a hypothetical question. And in my case I beleive it impossible for it to happen to me.

But how were Abarham and Moses made 100% sure, if God could do this to them then surely God would make me 100% sure in this case as well. And if I am so sure it is God speaking, then I would do it.

How do you know this? Haven't more prophets been prophesied?

In the old Testament, new prophets were prophecised. And I beleive it ended with Muhemmed(saw) since I'm Muslim.

What? And deny god?

I wouldn't be denying God because God wouldn't be talking to me. Not only this, I wouldn't know this is God's test. But then again, since God is perfect, God should be able to have a test without my interference and God could prevent me from knowing anything about what Abarham is planning to do.

mujahid263 · Post by **mujahid263** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:22 pm

Dilettante:

Wouldn't it seem a little strange to you for God to order such a thing? Wouldn't you wonder if you had gone nuts?

Exactly. But if God were to order me to do something like this then God would give me total faith its God and that I'm not crazy.

On the other hand, why are you sure there will be no more prophets and why couldn't God choose you as the next prophet?

I don't believe any more prophets will ever be coming. The only prophet I beleive will be coming is Isa(as), or Jesus near the end of the world. And I really don't think I'm Jesus, in fact I wouldn't want to be in such a great position under God.

No, the child is not martyred, because a martyr is someone who is killed for their religious beliefs, and in this case the child is killed because the father has certain religious beliefs--not the child. Actually the child is just murdered, and it is not at all certain that he or she would go to heaven, since--at least according to some people--one must absolutely have faith to go there and the child may or may not have it.

Well, according to my faith all children go to heaven if they die. As for the child being a martyr, I was using the term as meaning someone who goes to heaven directly after death, skipping judgement day and all. But then again, this might just be something else restricted to my religon and not Christianity.

As for the Christian beleif of a child going to heaven, although a child might not go to heaven, a new born infant would according to my discussion with another Christian on another forum.

2nd Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

He said this verse indicated that David would be going to the child, in heaven.

Besides, what kind of a God would require you to kill the innocent?

Yes, twas hypothetical. Christianity also forbids murder, doesn't promote or require it.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:43 am

mujahid263 wrote: 1) I doubt God would.

2) If I didn't know 100% it was God, then I wouldn't do it...

1. Who are you to doubt what god may have in store for you

2. That is the point, how woould you KNOW 100% that it was a message from god?

mujahid263 wrote:
What other supernatural beings are there?

Satan and the other fallen angels, the non-fallen angels. Was not Mohammad (pbuh) visited by such a creature who claimed to be bringing god's message?

PRH · Post by **PRH** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:07 am

The whole point of Abram and Isaac is what Abraham believed about God was based on what he already knew about him through a life of faith. To give but two examples, Abraham had left his home not knowing where he was going and God not only led him to a new land, but made him one of the wealthiest men in the region. God promised Abram and Sarai a son when they were past the age when this is naturally possible, yet God provided a son, not through their scheming, but from their own fertility. Then God said to kill the son of promise. Abraham accepted the challenge to sacrifice Isaac because he believed God could even raise Isaac from the dead if that was God's plan required. That is the interpretation of the writer of the New Testament Book of Hebrews (Chapter 11, Verses 17-19). A relationship with God may make no earthly sense from outside the relationship, yet be understandable to faith and based on experience (notice I said understandable, not logical).