The Ten Commandments

[OnceConvinced]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). That’s 30% of the commandments! Is God’s ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like “thou shalt not covet” which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is…?

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (You’d think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as God’s concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as God’s main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

[cnorman18]

I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

Thank you for that, and it's no problem. I've done the same any number of times. If memory serves, I've even done it once or twice with you.

Words are a terribly inefficient and inexact way to formulate and communicate ideas; but they are the only way we have. Misunderstandings are inevitable. I suspect that that's an aspect of reality upon which we can agree.

[RND]

The Ten Commandments were not, and are not, binding upon Gentiles, but only upon Jews. Since the Ten Words (as we call them) were the terms of a covenant, or contract, between God and the Jewish people, the first three Commandments concerning exclusive fidelity to God are perfectly logical and to be expected in that context.

I've always found this to be one of the most odd statements anyone could make regarding the Torah because it is clear from scripture that as long as gentiles live with Israel there is but "one law" that shall govern them - the Word of God.

Exd 12:49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Lev 24:22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I [am] the LORD your God.' "

Num 15:16 One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.'"

[Cathar1950]

The Ten Commandments were not, and are not, binding upon Gentiles, but only upon Jews. Since the Ten Words (as we call them) were the terms of a covenant, or contract, between God and the Jewish people, the first three Commandments concerning exclusive fidelity to God are perfectly logical and to be expected in that context.

I've always found this to be one of the most odd statements anyone could make regarding the Torah because it is clear from scripture that as long as gentiles live with Israel there is but "one law" that shall govern them - the Word of God.

Exd 12:49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Lev 24:22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I [am] the LORD your God.' "

Num 15:16 One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.'"

The Law or Torah is not the same as the "Word of God".
The "Word of God" (in your use) is a metaphor of a metaphor.
Of course this could only be enforced if the Hebrews or Jews were in charge of their land.

[RND]

The Law or Torah is not the same as the "Word of God".

Sure it is. These words were inspired into Rav Moshe just as they were in all the prophets.

The "Word of God" (in your use) is a metaphor of a metaphor.

Wow, I just got here on the thread and I've already found someone that is a discerner of hearts and minds! Nice to meet you!

The Word of God is any commandment the Lord has either uttered or inspired others to write - simple as that.

Of course this could only be enforced if the Hebrews or Jews were in charge of their land.

I'm sorry I'm not a dispensationalist so I would have to respectfully disagree with you. Keep in mind father Abraham was a gentile and the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob does need any decendants from them to raise up a family unto himself.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. [/quote]

[Cathar1950]

The Law or Torah is not the same as the "Word of God".

Sure it is. These words were inspired into Rav Moshe just as they were in all the prophets.

The "Word of God" (in your use) is a metaphor of a metaphor.

Wow, I just got here on the thread and I've already found someone that is a discerner of hearts and minds! Nice to meet you!

The Word of God is any commandment the Lord has either uttered or inspired others to write - simple as that.

Of course this could only be enforced if the Hebrews or Jews were in charge of their land.

I'm sorry I'm not a dispensationalist so I would have to respectfully disagree with you. Keep in mind father Abraham was a gentile and the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob does need any decendants from them to raise up a family unto himself.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[/quote]
Excuse me for not knowing what you mean by "Word of God" as a metaphor you might want to be more clear with your use.

Notice the bolded below.
Exd 12:49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Lev 24:22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I [am] the LORD your God.' "

Num 15:16 One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.'"

How does this pertain to others or gentiles outdsdie of the land?

[RND]

Excuse me for not knowing what you mean by "Word of God" as a metaphor you might want to be more clear with your use.

No sweat. All scripture is God breathed, i.e. inspired.

Notice the bolded below.
Exd 12:49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Right, "who dwells among you." The picture or pattern of the earthly sanctuary was a picture of the heavenly sanctuary. That said, just as the tribe of Israel gathered around and encamped around the earthly tabernacle so too did that encampment symbolize the entire world. Type/anti-type.

The tribe of Israel was to be an example for all nations:

Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people. Deu 4:7 For what nation [is there so] great, who [hath] God [so] nigh unto them, as the LORD our God [is] in all [things that] we call upon him [for]? Deu 4:8 And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Lev 24:22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I [am] the LORD your God.' "

The same law. In other words murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, etc., are laws of this land that apply to everyone. Makes no difference who the person is whether they be a naive, a transplant or and "illegal alien" the laws of our country apply to all.

Num 15:16 One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.'"

See above.

How does this pertain to others or gentiles outdsdie of the land?

Well I think we would simply have to ask what would God the Father be happy with? As I quoted from Deuteronomy 4, Israel the nation was supposed to be an attractive example to all the nations around her, teaching everyone of all nations about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The nations would be desirous to learn of God and His commandments and statutes by example and by word of His great deeds.

Deu 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;


[/quote]

[Cathar1950]

No sweat. All scripture is God breathed, i.e. inspired.

So says the forged letter of Timothy.
Deuteronomy and the Deut. history was written during the rule of Josiah and they reworked after the fall of Jerusalem then reworked again under Ezra.
We find these kinds of laws centuries before any part of the Bible was written as the are laws for people living in communities.
You can also find the ideas in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Most ancient people saw their laws as coming from the gods.

Ezra put them together for the Persians to rule.

[RND]

So says the forged letter of Timothy.

To each is own I suppose. Of course we would then need to ask what was Rav Moshes inspiration. David's. Joel's. Micah's. Daniel's.

Deuteronomy and the Deut. history was written during the rule of Josiah and they reworked after the fall of Jerusalem then reworked again under Ezra.

The second reading of the law came after the COI's deliverance from the wilderness and right before they took the promised land under Joshua.

We find these kinds of laws centuries before any part of the Bible was written as the are laws for people living in communities.

I agree! Just as God sabbathed so too did Adam and Eve, Abraham, et al.

You can also find the ideas in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Oh, I suppose that's true. But then again I only believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Most ancient people saw their laws as coming from the gods.

Did you mean "their gods?"

Ezra put them together for the Persians to rule.

I believe the book of Ezra details a period of years up to and including Artaxerxes degree to finally rebuild Jerusalem. Might I be mistaken? [/quote]

[cnorman18]

Just a word or two:

The passages that mention "one law" for Jew and Gentile are, and have always been, considered to be referring to civil and criminal law, not to religious law. Gentiles living in Israel, for instance, were not required to be circumcised (slaves, yes. It was a different time).
It also seems odd that you would take exception to someone claiming the ability to "discern hearts and minds" and then presume to discern the heart and mind of God yourself.

In general, it isn't wise to pontificate on subjects about which one appareently knows nothing. Jewish teaching and Jewish law, for instance.

[RND]

Just a word or two:

The passages that mention "one law" for Jew and Gentile are, and have always been, considered to be referring to civil and criminal law, not to religious law.

Actually, that's both technically and historically inaccurate. Exodus 12 that if a stranger would be willing to partake in the passover they had to circumcised first. Numbers 15 also tells us the exact same thing:

Num 15:14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever [be] among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. Num 15:15 One ordinance [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the stranger be before the LORD. Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Once a gentile accepted the passover and was circumcised they were as if they were homeborn.

Gentiles living in Israel, for instance, were not required to be circumcised (slaves, yes. It was a different time).

That's true. Yet, if the volunteered to be circumcised they were allowed to do so.

It also seems odd that you would take exception to someone claiming the ability to "discern hearts and minds" and then presume to discern the heart and mind of God yourself.

Brother, I just read the word. Understanding God, His intentions, His character and His nature are, while complicated, not to utterly complex to understand.

In general, it isn't wise to pontificate on subjects about which one appareently knows nothing. Jewish teaching and Jewish law, for instance.

I'm wondering if you might be willing to take your own advice? Brother if you are planning to come, come strong, and be prepared to quote the Torah and Tanakh. [/quote]