IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]
DIVINE INSIGHT:

Moreover, I find the verse that you have posted to be quite interesting and I use it frequently to defend my witchcraft against Christian criticism. The Christians often claim that witches get their power from Satan (just as Jesus had been accused of in the verse you've quoted).

However, like Jesus I use my powers for good works. Therefore, for the very same reasons that Jesus gave my powers cannot come from Beelzebub (or Satan) because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Therefore my powers necessarily must come from God, for precisely the same reasons that Jesus gave.

If what Jesus spoke is truth, then clearly it must also apply to me. I cannot do good works in the name of Beelzebub, demons, or Satan because that would be a house divided against itself.

So I find it rather humorous that Jesus himself has totally vindicated all witches who do good works. Because their power (according to Jesus) can only come from God. Only God's power can be used for good works.

I would like to invite you here DIVINE INSIGHT
The above post caught my attention and I would like to bring this to the light. Now in another thread I am under the impression you study Buddhism but claim not to be a Buddhist, correct?

I am totally against WitchCraft according to the Holy Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Leviticus 19:26 "Do not practice divination or seek omens"
...the list goes on.

Questions:
If Divine Insight claim to use WitchCraft for good, then could you or anyone else list those examples please?
Does one see WitchCraft as Good? or
Does one see WitchCraft as Evil?

Feel free to add on.

Thanks in advance,
Ace

[Goat]

I also heard that there was an independent historical record that Jesus was supposedly crucified for apostasy. But that implies that the Jewish Priest would have been behind that. I doubt that the Romans would care if Jesus had been preaching against the Jewish faith.

I would love to see what this 'independent historical record is'. I believe the Talmud mentions something like that, but it was written down 300 years later, in a manner that seems to have been a direct response to the Bible's account. That would not make it an independent source.

You may be perfectly correct. I think it was attributed to Talmud.

And you have a perfectly good point too that just because an historical account is independent of the Bible doesn't make it true either.

And this is certainly true of the writings of Josephus too. Especially if Josephus refers to Jesus as "The Christ". And I heard that he did. So Josephus himself may have already been biased in favor of the Christian rumors. Which at that time period would not have yet been officially canonized into anything nearly as specific as we have today.

In the early days of Christianity there were many arguments and rumors surrounding Jesus. The "Gospels" that we have today weren't the "Official Rumors" until much later when they were pronounced to he the "Holy Scriptures" by various people. At that point if you refused to accept the "Holy Scriptures" as the only true rumors you could face serious reprisal or even a death sentence.

Josephus would obviosly be among those who would not accept the official New Testament rumors then since he had his own belief that the Romans crucified Jesus and not the Jewish Priests. That would fly in the face of the official "Gospels".

Well, you know, the problem with Josephus is that it was tampered with. The antiquities 18 was most certainly tampered with.. and it is highly likely that it was a total insertion. There is no external references to it prior to the 4th century.

And there is enough doubt about antiquities 20 too, that I could see it the 'brother of the one called Christ' being a copiers gloss.

[The Me's]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Wiccans are in no way working for Jesus or God, and to say so is ridiculous. Wiccans would disagree with that statement as much as Christians.

Until Wiccans begin spreading the gospel, they're not working in concert with Jesus at all, since that was Jesus' obvious goal, to evangelize the world for the Christian religion.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Wiccans are in no way working for Jesus or God, and to say so is ridiculous. Wiccans would disagree with that statement as much as Christians.

Until Wiccans begin spreading the gospel, they're not working in concert with Jesus at all, since that was Jesus' obvious goal, to evangelize the world for the Christian religion.

Who said anything about working for Jesus?

Jesus was a witch.

He was practicing sorcery and when accused of using evil powers his excuse was that he claimed to be doing good works and that good works can only come from a good source because if they came from an evil source that evil source would be a house divided against itself.

Therefore since Wiccans do good works Jesus' same excuse MUST APPLY to them as well.

In fact, if it doesn't apply to Wiccans, then it's fails for Jesus too.

All I'm saying is that the excuse Jesus used necessarily MUST APPLY to everyone if it's going to be a valid excuse for Jesus.

A person doesn't need to be working FOR Jesus, or even believe that Jesus was anything other than a witch himself.

Jesus' excuse MUST APPLY to everyone if it is a valid excuse for himself.

And no, Wiccan's aren't working for the Christian God. They don't even believe in that bozo.

The Christians have created an idol image of God that they hold up as though they have the patent rights on God.

Nobody has the patent rights on God, and the Christians need to get over themselves with respect to that type of arrogance.

[The Me's]

Who said anything about working for Jesus?

Jesus was a witch.

He was practicing sorcery and when accused of using evil powers his excuse was that he claimed to be doing good works and that good works can only come from a good source because if they came from an evil source that evil source would be a house divided against itself.

Let's take this one step at a time:

Jesus was a witch.
--I've never seen a witch heal blindness, leprosy, deafness and demon possession, I've never seen a witch raise the dead, and I've never seen a witch walk on water or calm a storm. In fact, I've never seen a witch successfully perform even a simple spell. (I've also never seen a witch claim that what they were doing was "for the kingdom of God", as Jesus did in almost every case.)

To equate Jesus with witchcraft is therefore not supportable.

He was practicing sorcery.
--The only place this has ever been claimed was in the gospels (by the pharisees) and in the Talmud (by the pharisees).
--Witches don't claim to practice sorcery. Sorcers don't claim to practice witchcraft. You don't seem to understand the difference between what they call "white magic" and "black magic".
--In my own study of witchcraft and sorcery, I have never seen a spell, incantation or rite that was intended to perform the miracles Jesus performed. Perhaps you can point out at least one?

If you can't make a possitive connection between sorcery and anything Jesus did, you're claim that he was a sorcerer falls flat. In the mean time, at least learn the difference. You can't claim that Jesus was both a witch and a sorcerer.

...and when accused of using evil powers his excuse was that he claimed to be doing good works and that good works can only come from a good source because if they came from an evil source that evil source would be a house divided against itself
--Jesus claimed his power was from God (not a good source), and he made this claim many times. The only time Jesus used the "house divided against itself" argument was in the case of casting out demons. His argument was that if Satan is casting out his own demons, he's defeating his own efforts, and he was (of course) absolutely correct.

(That would be like Harry Reid casting democrats out of Congress and expecting to keep a majority.)

***********
The only choice you leave me is to believe that you're calling Jesus a witch as a means of demeaning him.

This doesn't strike me as a particularly intellectual argument. It sounds emotion-driven and irrational.

[Divine Insight]

Let's take this one step at a time:

Jesus was a witch.
--I've never seen a witch heal blindness, leprosy, deafness and demon possession, I've never seen a witch raise the dead, and I've never seen a witch walk on water or calm a storm. In fact, I've never seen a witch successfully perform even a simple spell. (I've also never seen a witch claim that what they were doing was "for the kingdom of God", as Jesus did in almost every case.)

To equate Jesus with witchcraft is therefore not supportable.

And you never saw Jesus do any of those things either.

So your fairytale is unsupportable.

He was practicing sorcery.
--The only place this has ever been claimed was in the gospels (by the pharisees) and in the Talmud (by the pharisees).
--Witches don't claim to practice sorcery. Sorcers don't claim to practice witchcraft. You don't seem to understand the difference between what they call "white magic" and "black magic".
--In my own study of witchcraft and sorcery, I have never seen a spell, incantation or rite that was intended to perform the miracles Jesus performed. Perhaps you can point out at least one?

If you can't make a possitive connection between sorcery and anything Jesus did, you're claim that he was a sorcerer falls flat. In the mean time, at least learn the difference. You can't claim that Jesus was both a witch and a sorcerer.

Your whining and complaining here is irrelvant.

If Jesus excuse was that he was going GOOD WORKS and therefore his works cannot be from an evil source since that would be a house divided against itself then that excuse is good enough for me as well.

--Jesus claimed his power was from God (not a good source), and he made this claim many times. The only time Jesus used the "house divided against itself" argument was in the case of casting out demons. His argument was that if Satan is casting out his own demons, he's defeating his own efforts, and he was (of course) absolutely correct.

A Good Source and a God Source at the same thing by definition.

So your argument fails here.

You are just like the pharisees, trying to condemn someone using a false accusation which Jesus' excuse rebukes.

And if Jesus' excuse works for him, then it also works for me, and you are in the very same position as the Jewish Pharisees.

The only choice you leave me is to believe that you're calling Jesus a witch as a means of demeaning him.

This doesn't strike me as a particularly intellectual argument. It sounds emotion-driven and irrational.

Why would that demean Jesus?

What's wrong with a witch?

Only the Christians demonized witches.

The Christians seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their claim to the patent rights on God.

They aren't any different from the Muslims who also try to claim the patent rights on God.

If I do good works in the name of witchcraft, then I am in harmony with Jesus and his excuse.

And any Christian who objects is in harmony with the Pharisees who tried to pull that stunt on Jesus.

Jesus is clearly in agreement with me, not with you or the Pharisees who you seem to be attempting to emulate.

[The Me's]

And you never saw Jesus do any of those things either.

So your fairytale is unsupportable.

People who are desperate to find fault with Christians, the Bible or Jesus are so predictable. I knew this would be your response before you posted it.

YOU have never witnessed witchcraft or sorcery, you therefore have no argument. This didn't stop you from claiming that Jesus was both a witch and a sorcerer, despite having never seen any of the three. I can't think of a more empty argument, devoid entirely of evidence, observtion and knowledge.

(The fact that the Talmud confirms that Jesus performed miracles is evidence enough that he did. The people who hated Jesus of Nazareth the most, the Pharisees, never attempted to deny it.)

[Divine Insight]

And you never saw Jesus do any of those things either.

So your fairytale is unsupportable.

People who are desperate to find fault with Christians, the Bible or Jesus are so predictable. I knew this would be your response before you posted it.

YOU have never witnessed witchcraft or sorcery, you therefore have no argument. This didn't stop you from claiming that Jesus was both a witch and a sorcerer, despite having never seen any of the three. I can't think of a more empty argument, devoid entirely of evidence, observtion and knowledge.

(The fact that the Talmud confirms that Jesus performed miracles is evidence enough that he did. The people who hated Jesus of Nazareth the most, the Pharisees, never attempted to deny it.)

I didn't claim that Jesus was a witch or a sorcerer.

All I did was claim that his excuse necessarily applies to everyone who does good works in the name of witchcraft or sorcery.

You are the one who appears to be getting all bent out of shape emotionally over this.

All I'm saying is that if Jesus excuse works for him, then it necessarily works for everyone else as well.

In other words if Jesus can be trusted to have spoken the truth then anyone who performs any good works must necessarily be doing it via good sources. And according to Jesus the only good source can be from God because if an evil source does good works it would be a house divided against itself and fall.

Your attempt to make this about anything other than this is just as devious and futile as the pharisees who Jesus proudly proclaimed to be hypocrites.

So like I say, Jesus is in harmony with my position, not with yours.

You are taking the position of the Pharisees and you are failing for the same reason the pharisees failed in Jesus' day.

Jesus and I obtain our powers from the same source.

And that necessarily has to be the case for the very reasons that Jesus gave in his defense. I do good works, thus proving that I am in harmony with the same power Jesus claimed to be in harmony with.

If you believe that that power comes from the male-chauvinistic God of damnation described in the Old Testament that's your problem, not mine. That's what the pharisees believe too! And Jesus called them hypocrites.

[The Me's]

I didn't claim that Jesus was a witch or a sorcerer.

From your post #63:

Jesus was a witch.

He was practicing sorcery and when accused of using evil powers his excuse was that he claimed to be doing good works and that good works can only come from a good source because if they came from an evil source that evil source would be a house divided against itself.

I have no need to respond until you give consistent answers.

[Divine Insight]

I didn't claim that Jesus was a witch or a sorcerer.

From your post #63:

Jesus was a witch.

He was practicing sorcery and when accused of using evil powers his excuse was that he claimed to be doing good works and that good works can only come from a good source because if they came from an evil source that evil source would be a house divided against itself.

I have no need to respond until you give consistent answers.

I practice sorcery too. So this is nothing new to me.

In fact, this is what Jesus commanded his followers to do. He told them to go around healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, etc.

He even told them that they can handle poisonous snakes and drink poison and it won't hurt them.

So not only was Jesus claiming to be a witch and a sorcerer but he was teaching his followers to be witches and sorcerers too.

I don't deny that Jesus claimed to be a witch.

That doesn't change the fact that his excuse for practicing witchcraft necessarily must apply to ALL witches who do good works.

The only witches it wouldn't apply to are those who do evil works.

So if Jesus' defense works for him then it has to work for all witches, sorcerers, shamans, and anyone else who does good works in the name of spiritual magick.

So there is nothing inconsistent in what I'm saying. You are just trying to hide behind that because I'm clearly right.

The extent to which Jesus was successful at witchcraft is anyone's guess. He clearly did not perform all the miracles proclaimed by the authors of the Bible. According to them he had thousands of people following him around witnessing all of this magic, but the problem is that there is no external accounts of these events.

The only place we see these is in the New Testament Gossip Rumors.

So that pretty much seals the deal that he wasn't doing all that much. On the contrary the New Testament Gossip Rumors are no doubt just exaggerations by a few delusional followers. In fact, I suspect that the actual New Testament Gossip Rumors are actually doctored up superstitious that were deviously manipulated by uncouth religious zealots for the purpose of creating a religious cult surrounding these rumors about Jesus.

Jesus probably didn't have any better magic than I have.

You can't go by the New Testament superstitions. There is no question that they are clearly false in the details as they grossly conflict with themselves anyway.

[The Me's]

I practice sorcery too. So this is nothing new to me.

This is just not believable.

Your responses are all over the map. If you really did practice sorcery, you would know first hand that spells, incantations, auguries and summonings never work. The bonds of the laws of physics don't allow them to work.