Zionists' claim to Palestine

[VermilionUK]

Not sure whether this is in the relevant forum - I thought it belonged more in the right and wrong, than the Jewish forum, but anyway:

If we consider the Jew's claim to Palestine - is it a justifiable claim that "it was their biblical homeland" in order to take Palestine? Or is this a wrong/unjust thing to do?
The Arabs have been in Palestine longer than the Jews had, haven't they? So how can - what is effectively a takeover - of Palestine by the Jews be justified through going back in the historic books of religion?
Should we kick out the Americans and give it back to the natives? Or kick out the English? Or even kick out those in Romania and give the land to the Gypsies?

Question for discussion: How can the religious claim for Palestine from the Zionists be justified/a valid claim?

My personal opinion is that it's completely unjustifiable. We can't just go around saying: "This book says that we lived here hundreds of years ago, so now we are taking it back" - we must consider that the Arabs have been there for hundreds of years, its not as if it was a recent Arab invasion that forced out the Jews.
Surely we can't be using religion to take over countries in the 20th\21st Century, can we? - But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing your views...

[Jayhawker Soule]

Let me ask you a question regarding the cartoon that I posted previously. Can you conceive of it as an honest (not necessarily accurate, but honest) political caricature of the tactics of Hamas terrorists rather than a characterization of all Arabs?

[VermilionUK]

Let me ask you a question regarding the cartoon that I posted previously. Can you conceive of it as an honest (not necessarily accurate, but honest) political caricature of the tactics of Hamas terrorists rather than a characterization of all Arabs?

Honest? Not really. I personally don't like cartoons like this, because although you could argue they are "honest" - they are produced with the intent to put across one single point of view.

So, while some would argue it may be an honest or accurate portrayal of some of the tactics used by Hamas fighters - they are openly biased and only show one side.
Similarly, I could draw a cartoon of an Israeli blocking a Red-Cross ambulance, while a small Palestinian child bleeds to death in the road. It would be accurate in the fact that Israel have blocked such ambulances, but it is not honest, because it ignores the fact that Hamas have also had a disregard for children's lives.

But yes, I'd say it is accurate if we solely look at the Hamas side.

This is why I prefer photo's. They allow you to say "look, this happened, here is the proof" rather than "look, this is a cartoon that suggests, X, Y and Z". But as with cartoons, a photo can only tell you so much.

It's widely known that Hamas have called upon civilians to occupy buildings that are to be bombed by the Israeli air force. I saw a video last week of a Hamas fighter using a child as a human shield to fight-off a group of IDF soldiers. It was outrageous - but when I see the Red-Cross reporting that Israel were blocking their ambulances from helping Palestinians, it leads me to think that neither side are innocent.

Although, I don't really see the point of you asking this question - I've already stated that I think both sides should face action/trial from the UN and face some form of punishment or sanctions - so I fail to see what you're trying to prove.

[VermilionUK]

Also, I would add that the Israeli in the cartoon is seemingly prepared to shoot - despite the child being in the way, which is reflective of how Israel have bombed schools and areas that it knows are populated with children/civilians.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Let me ask you a question regarding the cartoon that I posted previously. Can you conceive of it as an honest (not necessarily accurate, but honest) political caricature of the tactics of Hamas terrorists rather than a characterization of all Arabs?

Honest? Not really.

We're done.

[tatty]

Also, I would add that the Israeli in the cartoon is seemingly prepared to shoot - despite the child being in the way, which is reflective of how Israel have bombed schools and areas that it knows are populated with children/civilians.

The way that I interpreted the cartoon is the Israeli soldier is fighting to defend the child, whereas the Palestinian is using children as a shield...

Which is precisely how I see the conflict. The first major pan-Arab war of 1948 was an attack instigated by all Arab nations the day after Israel became a recognised state. Israel fight to defend their nation, with too much force yes, but all of the major wars have been to protect Israeli interests, whereas the Arab nations have been on an offensive from the beginning with the single goal of destroying Israel.

[VermilionUK]

Also, I would add that the Israeli in the cartoon is seemingly prepared to shoot - despite the child being in the way, which is reflective of how Israel have bombed schools and areas that it knows are populated with children/civilians.

The way that I interpreted the cartoon is the Israeli soldier is fighting to defend the child, whereas the Palestinian is using children as a shield...

Which is precisely how I see the conflict. The first major pan-Arab war of 1948 was an attack instigated by all Arab nations the day after Israel became a recognised state. Israel fight to defend their nation, with too much force yes, but all of the major wars have been to protect Israeli interests, whereas the Arab nations have been on an offensive from the beginning with the single goal of destroying Israel.

I largely agree, Israel is trying to defend itself, however some of those defences are unproportional and can quickly turn into what could be seen as an offensive. I am not suggesting that it is Israel who are the attackers, but what I am suggesting is that both sides, Palestinian and Israeli need to be held accountable for their actions.

It seems that at the minute, and from the look of some of the responses in this forum, that some of us are unwilling to accept that Israel has done wrong - and think its all one way traffic.

It takes two to tango.

[Jonah]

In browsing through the posts of this thread I note op, midway, abandoned the sincerity of his original post: the narrow question of whether Jews had any right to set up a state. So, then. OP's real concern gets fleshed out in terms of the scripted litany of Israel's sins. Well, which is it? What did you really want to talk about?

If you want to go cherry picking through Israel's military sins to the exclusion of anything good done...well, it's a hobby. But, if you're collecting that kind thing, there's a British version, and an American, etc. And the British and the American have a much much higher body count.

So. OP. How does Israel merit your chief villain status? How many outright criminal homicides (not unintended collateral civilian deaths) do you allege on Israel's rap sheet? Did she drop a nuclear device? Did she gas? Did she machine gun thousands or millions into pits?

Alternatively, are you losing sleep over Britain's participation in the Dresden massacre? or Britain's "my lai" in India in 1919?

OP, I think you have the courage of your original post. What do you want to do about all this? Dismantle Israel? Okay. I would like to know your plans for where 5 million Jews go then. Can we come to the UK?

[Cathar1950]

In browsing through the posts of this thread I note op, midway, abandoned the sincerity of his original post: the narrow question of whether Jews had any right to set up a state. So, then. OP's real concern gets fleshed out in terms of the scripted litany of Israel's sins. Well, which is it? What did you really want to talk about?

If you want to go cherry picking through Israel's military sins to the exclusion of anything good done...well, it's a hobby. But, if you're collecting that kind thing, there's a British version, and an American, etc. And the British and the American have a much much higher body count.

So. OP. How does Israel merit your chief villain status? How many outright criminal homicides (not unintended collateral civilian deaths) do you allege on Israel's rap sheet? Did she drop a nuclear device? Did she gas? Did she machine gun thousands or millions into pits?

Alternatively, are you losing sleep over Britain's participation in the Dresden massacre? or Britain's "my lai" in India in 1919?

OP, I think you have the courage of your original post. What do you want to do about all this? Dismantle Israel? Okay. I would like to know your plans for where 5 million Jews go then. Can we come to the UK?

If we are thinking about "Dismantle Israel" why not all the other little countries too that were created? .

[VermilionUK]

The topic in the forum has diverted from its original course because it's a question that can't really be answered, and so there was little point dwindling on an issue to which there is no answer - the history is very blurred. It was a mistake on my part to produce a question which was so narrow and was perhaps ignorant of me.

As such I thought it better to discuss the actions and morals of the conflict, as there is more scope for debate and discussion of opinions - which can provide some interesting viewing to look at different opinions. That is why the topic changed course.

No, I don't want to dismantle all of Israel, however I do think that some land that was taken from people wrongfully should be returned. I made the mistake of misreading one of the posts and replying that they (the Jews) should be evicted, however I only think that those who took land unlawfully should be evicted.

On the moral side, I think both sides require some form of action to be taken against them (sanctions?).

I hope I've made myself clearer, if not, feel free to question further.

[Cathar1950]

I don't see any real problem with setting up yet another little state in Palestine for the Palestinians and anyone else that wants to move there.
The problem with Jerusalem will probably never get solved so they should turn it into a theme park and museums with reenactments. More digging and studies should be going on and they need to have good and favored trade relations with each other and others so they become mutual dependent upon each other and make some money doing fun stuff like feed people and create jobs. I would love to see them show the world how to get along and maybe they will all come out on top leaving us far behind or trying to catch up.