The Boy Scouts Pledge - Can an atheist serve?

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realthinker
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The Boy Scouts Pledge - Can an atheist serve?

Post #1

Post by realthinker »

I am a Cub Scout den leader for a pack affiliated with a local public elementary school. This statement from the by-laws of the Boy Scouts of America was the final topic in a leadership training I took part in last weekend.
The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.
Here are a couple of related thoughts from the BSA regarding religion.
Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.
Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

This is the email note I sent our Cubmaster.
Dear XXXXX,

After the discussion of our final topic in last weekend's outdoor leader's training I feel I need to say something before it becomes a public topic for discussion on an awkward occasion. The official position of the BSA is that "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." While it is a position I can support in order to maintain my association with the BSA, it is not a position I believe. In fact, I and my family believe that there is not a God that intercedes in our lives. We do not practice religion.

We do believe, however, in a strong community and in contributing in a positive and active fashion to the lives of children to build our community. We believe in being supportive to the parents and families of our community so that they might be successful in fulfilling their family obligations to the community, including their religious obligations. We believe that involvement in community activities and organizations is our duty and that it is our service that earns our place as neighbors.

You have my commitment to the organization, which includes my commitment to fulfill my duties with regard to the religious fulfillment of our scouts and their families. I feel that while my religious beliefs and participation may not be according to the organization's expectations, this is not in conflict with my expected duties as a den leader. I am committed to ensuring that every scout whom I deal with finds complete fulfillment of the scouting experience, and that scouting leadership finds no fault in my support.

Should you, as pack Cubmaster, feel otherwise and find my position incompatible with your exercise of scouting rules, I will quietly defer to your judgment. To do so would be contrary to my beliefs, to my support of friends and the families of my community.

I await your considerate reply. If you would like to discuss, please feel free to call.

With best regards,
I am clearly serving in contradiction to the BSA by-laws. My son, likewise, is clearly not eligible for membership. However, we both participate and have had no indication that there is any incompatibility with our local organization and its members. As I portrayed in my note, I feel my service is in no way compromised. I feel I am in no way undermining the organization or the families I work with.

What is your opinion of this situation? Do you feel that my religious position should be grounds for my removal as den leader? Do you feel it should be grounds for the exclusion of my son from Cub Scouts?
If all the ignorance in the world passed a second ago, what would you say? Who would you obey?

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Post #31

Post by kayky »

Children often join organizations, not realizing the implications. Experimental sexual contact among children is a fact of life regardless of the sexuality of said children. It's nothing to get hysterical about.

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Post #32

Post by Goat »

kayky wrote:Children often join organizations, not realizing the implications. Experimental sexual contact among children is a fact of life regardless of the sexuality of said children. It's nothing to get hysterical about.
It is when a child has contact with an adult that knows better that the problem is.

There is the assumption among certain Christians that assume a gay person is more likely than a straight person to prey on the innocent. That is a false assumption.

There has been enough cases of sexual abuse in both the boy scouts and the girl scouts that they have put into place that boy scout meetings have to have two independent adults , so any one person can not be alone with the kids.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #33

Post by mpok1519 »

the boy scouts are inheantly discriminative based on their standards of individual faith; if the boy scouts do not want someone to participate bc of their religous or non-religious views, then the boy scouts actively violate several civil-rights and anti-discrimination laws and policies legislated a long time ago.

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Post #34

Post by elle »

Eph wrote:
goat wrote:
Frankly, I will not support the Boy Scouts because of their discriminatory practices, against homosexuals and against atheists.
Then by your definition, one could argue that you shouldn't support Judaism either, after all they don't allow atheists to be members. Are they discriminatory?
That assertion is simply quite untrue. Jrosemary did an excellent job of explaining why and I encourage you to read this thread: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... p?p=254466
Jrosemary wrote: I think there's more room in religions for atheists than most people realize. If you're dealing with non-credal religions--by which I mean religions that do not define their adherents by the creed they profess--it's not that much of an issue.

Judaism isn't credal: we have lots of traditional teachings, but what you believe about them doesn't determine whether or not you're a Jew. Hence there's no inherent contradiction about being an atheist and a synagogue-attending Jew.

In fact, there's a whole branch of Judaism--Reconstructionism--that began as pretty much an atheist movement. The guy who founded it, Mordecai Kaplan, rejected theism (although he left the door open for certain neo-platonist or Kabbalistic views.) The Reconstructionists aren't as hard core now as they were back in the day, though; 'God' isn't a bad word any more.
All organizations have criteria for membership, and, therefore, some type of discrimination.
I think I could agree with your assertion here.
Unfortunately, the world we live in is forcing tolerance at all levels, like the gustapo.


Gee, I really don't see how tolerance is such a negative thing. Care to explain this very strong metaphor you're using here?
Message to Boy Scouts: Get on the bus, or else we will make everyone think you are racist pigs!
This thread has nothing to do with racism.
My belief in tolerance includes a mutual respect and a difference of opinion - as long as no one is getting hurt. This extends to religions and organizations like the Boy Scouts.
It is interesting to me how your belief system seems to be quite tolerant but doesn't seem to expect that same level of tolerance to be shown from organizations such as the Boy Scouts.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.--Carl Sagan

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Post #35

Post by Coyotero »

How do the scouts feel about polytheist pagans like me?

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Post #36

Post by Goat »

Coyotero wrote:How do the scouts feel about polytheist pagans like me?
There is nothing in their bylaws that specifically are prejudicial against you.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #37

Post by Coyotero »

goat wrote:
Coyotero wrote:How do the scouts feel about polytheist pagans like me?
There is nothing in their bylaws that specifically are prejudicial against you.
Not specifically, though the way they are worded is very contradictory to my religion:
The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God...
(A) We don't believe in any one God and (B) We have no obligation to any of them.
The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe...
We recognize no such idea. While Gods are certainly of a greater power than our own, we have no way of knowing if they are the "leading and ruling power" Who leads and rules them?
acknowledgment of His favors and blessings
We don't acknowledge that the Gods do anything for us at all, they want to see us succeed without their intervention. Also, I take issue with the assigning of a gender to the divine here. Lady Freyja would be displeased.

Even though I'm a (poly)theist, I take some issue with regards to the role religion is expected to take, and do not subscribe to these ideas... Would this exclude me from being a participant as per the rules?

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Post #38

Post by TheOneAndOnly »

I was Cubmaster for a pack sponsored by the American Legion. I was asked to (*cough* roped into *cough*) take the position, as no one else would volunteer. I am an atheist, and I told them up front my position. I am, however, not openly hostile to religion. I don't mind reciting a couple of "Under God's", etc.
They still took me anyways. Our pack was more of a "don't ask, don't tell" group, but in a good way, fortunately. We judge and see others based on performance and maturity, not religion or sex, etc.
Our pack was not overly religious in it's activities, we did not pray before and after meetings, and did not proselytize ever. Like I said, no more than an "under God" in reciting motto's, etc. And I kept my feelings about atheism to myself. I am not one to walk into a church and piss on their pews. As such, even though I didn't come to them-they came to me, I had affirmed to respect their right to practice what little of God that they do.
And it worked out pretty well, no problems.

I do not really know much about the main scouting organization in general. We just stick to what we know best in our little neck of the woods O:)

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Post #39

Post by Goat »

TheOneAndOnly wrote: I do not really know much about the main scouting organization in general. We just stick to what we know best in our little neck of the woods O:)
The national organization tends to be a lot more uptight about the situation than the local groups it seems.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #40

Post by TheOneAndOnly »

goat wrote:
TheOneAndOnly wrote: I do not really know much about the main scouting organization in general. We just stick to what we know best in our little neck of the woods O:)
The national organization tends to be a lot more uptight about the situation than the local groups it seems.
That's fine with me. It is their organization.

If my being an atheist had been a problem to them, I wouldn't have argued the position. My response would have been "you asked me, I didn't ask you". And that would have been that.

To me, arguing that the scouts believe in God is like arguing that Churches believe in God. While I disagree with the nonsense, I will fight with all my might to preserve their right to. As long as they are not harming others, or infringing on others rights, I am fine with that.

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