Violence in Childrearing

[McCulloch]

Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from Sheol.

Is there a place for physical violence as part of childrearing?

[otseng]

I know it's legal to cane someone in Singapore. I just agree with the meaning behind the eighth amendment in that cruel and unusual punishment is unnecessary and immoral.

I agree with the eighth amendment too. But by itself, it doesn't show that caning is wrong.

You are implying that they had access to the knowledge to be able to do these things but chose not to, that's just not the case.

No, I'm not implying this. What I am saying is that one cannot say that physical discipline is categorically wrong for everyone for all history. And it also cannot be said that every parent who have physically disciplined their child are irresponsible.

Even the article you cite touches on this.

"One implication of our findings is the need for caution in making recommendations about parenting practices across different cultural groups," said lead researcher Jennifer Lansford, Ph.D., a research scientist at the Center for Child and Family Policy at Duke University. "A particular parenting practice may become a problem only if parents use it in a cultural context that does not support the practice (for example, if they migrate from one country to another)."
However, she notes, some practices that were condoned historically (e.g., child labor) are now condemned, at least in certain countries. "A larger question is whether a parenting practice is acceptable, regardless of whether it occurs commonly within a cultural group."

Spanking leads to anxious and aggressive children.

Just as people in the past are different from us now. And even people across the ocean are different from us now. And perhaps even the neighbor across the street is different. Each parent is operating under different conditions.

Also, it does not state in the article that spanking should be discouraged. Rather, it simply says that one needs to be mindful of the cultural context when making any recommendations.

My position on spanking is that it should be allowed for parents as an acceptable form of discipline. I don't think it should be used too often. And it should be administered responsibly and carefully.

University of California, Berkley, psychologists Diana Baumrind, PhD, and Elizabeth Owens, PhD, made national headlines in the New York Times, USA Today and other major media outlets after presenting findings at APA's 2001 Annual Convention showing that occasional mild spanking does not harm a child's social and emotional development.

She added that when parents are loving and firm, and communicate well with a child, "the child is exceptionally competent and well-adjusted, whether or not their parents spanked them as preschoolers."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec01/spanking.html

I will agree that physical discipline administered incorrectly could have negative long-term affects. But, as noted by the research from Baumrind, physical discipline by itself is not detrimental to the well-being of children, esp if administered by firm and loving parents.

[Galphanore]

I know it's legal to cane someone in Singapore. I just agree with the meaning behind the eighth amendment in that cruel and unusual punishment is unnecessary and immoral.

I agree with the eighth amendment too. But by itself, it doesn't show that caning is wrong.

.....I'm not saying that the eighth amendment is the reason it is wrong, I am saying the eighth amendment is a codification of why it is wrong. Caning is cruel punishment. The founding fathers thought strongly enough that such cruel punishment was immoral that they wrote it into law that it would not be permitted, and I agree with them.

You are implying that they had access to the knowledge to be able to do these things but chose not to, that's just not the case.

No, I'm not implying this. What I am saying is that one cannot say that physical discipline is categorically wrong for everyone for all history. And it also cannot be said that every parent who have physically disciplined their child are irresponsible.

Even the article you cite touches on this.

.....nor did I say they were. I said they were ignorant. Ignorant means they did not know, not that they choose to beat their children even after being specifically informed that it was harmful to their development.

"One implication of our findings is the need for caution in making recommendations about parenting practices across different cultural groups," said lead researcher Jennifer Lansford, Ph.D., a research scientist at the Center for Child and Family Policy at Duke University. "A particular parenting practice may become a problem only if parents use it in a cultural context that does not support the practice (for example, if they migrate from one country to another)."
However, she notes, some practices that were condoned historically (e.g., child labor) are now condemned, at least in certain countries. "A larger question is whether a parenting practice is acceptable, regardless of whether it occurs commonly within a cultural group."

Spanking leads to anxious and aggressive children.

Just as people in the past are different from us now. And even people across the ocean are different from us now. And perhaps even the neighbor across the street is different. Each parent is operating under different conditions.

Also, it does not state in the article that spanking should be discouraged. Rather, it simply says that one needs to be mindful of the cultural context when making any recommendations.

My position on spanking is that it should be allowed for parents as an acceptable form of discipline. I don't think it should be used too often. And it should be administered responsibly and carefully.

And my position is that it should not. There are other ways to deal with an unruly child then to beat them. I do not think that most parents are capable of understanding what would be an appropriate level of spanking.

University of California, Berkley, psychologists Diana Baumrind, PhD, and Elizabeth Owens, PhD, made national headlines in the New York Times, USA Today and other major media outlets after presenting findings at APA's 2001 Annual Convention showing that occasional mild spanking does not harm a child's social and emotional development.

She added that when parents are loving and firm, and communicate well with a child, "the child is exceptionally competent and well-adjusted, whether or not their parents spanked them as preschoolers."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec01/spanking.html

I will agree that physical discipline administered incorrectly could have negative long-term affects. But, as noted by the research from Baumrind, physical discipline by itself is not detrimental to the well-being of children, esp if administered by firm and loving parents.

Agreed. I further posit that most parents are not capable of understanding when they have gone to far, so physical violence toward children should be extremely discouraged. Additionally, how could we be justified in imprisoning people for excessive amounts if we condone any level of physical violence? The article said that physical discipline itself is not detrimental, but it does not say that it should be used. Even in the second paragraph :

• Baumrind cautioned those attending that she did not advocate spanking and warned that regular and intense spanking could cause great mental strain in children.

It doesn't always cause harm, but it does cause harm, and in most cases there are better ways to discipline a child. The same is true of electroshock therapy, but that doesn't mean we let anyone do it when they feel like they need to.

[otseng]

Ignorant means they did not know, not that they choose to beat their children even after being specifically informed that it was harmful to their development.

You are assuming here that it is a fact that all physical discipline causes harm to children. And this is not true.

Even a majority of pediatricians interviewed responded that "an occasional spanking under certain circumstances can be an effective form of discipline". And only a third state that it should not be used under any circumstances.

[mrow][mcol]Pediatricians' Opinions on Use of Corporal Punishment [mcol] [row][col]Generally oppose the use of corporal punishment by parents, but an occasional spanking under certain circumstances can be an effective form of discipline [col]53.4% [row][col]Completely oppose the use of corporal punishment by parents under any circumstances [col]31.4% [row][col]Support, in principle, the limited use of corporal punishment by parents [col]13.6% [row][col]Unsure of opinion on the use of corporal punishment by parents [col]1.5%

http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps38a.htm

I do not think that most parents are capable of understanding what would be an appropriate level of spanking.

Even more, I don't think many parents understand how to correctly discipline their children, even without the use of physical disciplining. I'm not saying that I know it all either, but I've had to attend classes and read books just to get to my current level of understanding.

So, I guess we're sort of coming to a consensus about this.

There exists an area where physical discipline is acceptable and not considered irresponsible. There also exists an area where it can be abusive and considered harmful. Where to draw the line is difficult, even among professionals.

Since some (many?) parents are not able to physically discipline correctly, it should be completely discouraged among them. But for those who are able to be loving and firm and administer physical discipline correctly, then it is not irresponsible for them to do so.

[Galphanore]

Ignorant means they did not know, not that they choose to beat their children even after being specifically informed that it was harmful to their development.

You are assuming here that it is a fact that all physical discipline causes harm to children. And this is not true.

Even a majority of pediatricians interviewed responded that "an occasional spanking under certain circumstances can be an effective form of discipline". And only a third state that it should not be used under any circumstances.

[mrow][mcol]Pediatricians' Opinions on Use of Corporal Punishment [mcol] [row][col]Generally oppose the use of corporal punishment by parents, but an occasional spanking under certain circumstances can be an effective form of discipline [col]53.4% [row][col]Completely oppose the use of corporal punishment by parents under any circumstances [col]31.4% [row][col]Support, in principle, the limited use of corporal punishment by parents [col]13.6% [row][col]Unsure of opinion on the use of corporal punishment by parents [col]1.5%

http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps38a.htm

It would also be appropriate, by the very same chart, to say that the vast majority, fully 84.8%, of pediatricians oppose physical discipline, but that some of them also acknowledge that "an occasional spanking under certain circumstances can be an effective form of discipline". Caning is "an effective form of discipline", that doesn't make it right, nor does it say they think it causes no long term harm. Only 13.6% actually support it while a full 31.4% will not even mince their words and allow that it is effective!

I do not think that most parents are capable of understanding what would be an appropriate level of spanking.

Even more, I don't think many parents understand how to correctly discipline their children, even without the use of physical disciplining. I'm not saying that I know it all either, but I've had to attend classes and read books just to get to my current level of understanding.

So, I guess we're sort of coming to a consensus about this.

There exists an area where physical discipline is acceptable and not considered irresponsible. There also exists an area where it can be abusive and considered harmful. Where to draw the line is difficult, even among professionals.

Since some (many?) parents are not able to physically discipline correctly, it should be completely discouraged among them. But for those who are able to be loving and firm and administer physical discipline correctly, then it is not irresponsible for them to do so.

Agreed. I just think that there are very, very few people in the later group. I would state that physical discipline should be completely discouraged but there are some cases where it is, as the pediatricians accepted, an effective form of discipline. I just don't think it's worth the risk of causing long term damage to a child just because it might be effective in the short term.

[otseng]

Agreed. I just think that there are very, very few people in the later group. I would state that physical discipline should be completely discouraged but there are some cases where it is, as the pediatricians accepted, an effective form of discipline.

Well, with that, I'll call it a wrap.

[Cathar1950]

I just wanted to say I read "cohersion and its fall out" years ago and I think I still have it. Very informative and enlighting. I knew I was right.

[Osiris]

Violence has no place in childrearing and only leads to problems. Read an Alfie Kohn book.

[FreedomOfExpression]

No, but how could that be the wrong thing?

When you have kids you will more than likely find that you'll try to exhaust all of your resources before subsequently hitting. It's the last straw, and usually done in frustration. Not a good time to be striking a child. It shows children that instead of taking a break to collect their thoughts, calm down and sensibly work things out; knock some sense into the person and show them who is boss. Constructive? I think not.

[Ncik666]

Here we go. I was spanked. Punished and etc. You know what ended up happening? I am one of the most studious students at my school. Higher than average IQ yada yada. I don't think it should be used every time, and Over use and when it reaches the point of abuse is wrong. But when it comes down to it sometimes there is no other way to control a child, actually for that matter adults. I believe in death penalty and all that but I don't want to make that the issue here, what I'm saying is sometime a detterent should be used and sometimes that detterent needs to be followed through on.

[sledheavy]

Here we go. I was spanked. Punished and etc. You know what ended up happening? I am one of the most studious students at my school. Higher than average IQ yada yada. I don't think it should be used every time, and Over use and when it reaches the point of abuse is wrong. But when it comes down to it sometimes there is no other way to control a child, actually for that matter adults. I believe in death penalty and all that but I don't want to make that the issue here, what I'm saying is sometime a detterent should be used and sometimes that detterent needs to be followed through on.

I agree, there has to be some level of control and understanding without direct abuse. Of course, expecting moderation in a time of childraising might be too much to ask. That's gotta be a hard time for everybody the first few years. However, anything is still better than neglect.