Christians Favor Abortion

[Zzyzx]

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Many Christians here and elsewhere claim to be very opposed to abortion. BUT when confronted with an unwanted pregnancy Christian women (including Evangelicals) have the very abortion they claim to oppose " a half a million times per year.

A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic.

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

The article has several ironic citations about "Pro-Life" women who have abortions including this one:

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

Another article

A new study by The Center For Reason (www.CenterForReason.com) finds that Christians have just as many abortions as their non-Christian counterparts. The study concludes that in the year 2000, Christians were responsible for 570,000 abortions. Catholics were found to be the worst offenders, with abortion rates higher than the national average.
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/articles/ ... rtion.html

Question for debate:

If Christian women have more than half a million abortions per year how can the Christian anti-abortion stance NOT be hypocritical?

[Beto]

You are greatly separated from God if you have the kind of mindset to get an abortion.

Since the "mindset" of a prepubescent pregnant girl is not an issue, what other justification is there for denying her an abortion? Or will you argue she is supposed to be concerned about her "relationship" with "God" at that point?

EDIT: Although I've read it somewhere I guess the expression "prepubescent pregnant girl" is technically inaccurate, but I suppose the point remains with 13 or 14 year old girls. The youngest I know of was 5 so...

[Zzyzx]

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You are greatly separated from God if you have the kind of mindset to get an abortion.

Thus, a half a million women who thought they were Christian before getting pregnant are "greatly separated from god"???? Who is authorized to decide the position of those women with respect to "god"?

Of greater significance in my opinion, is the willingness of a half a million Christian women (and presumably some, many or most of men by whom they became pregnant) to go directly against the teachings they claim to follow -- when a matter of convenience or personal preference arises. As the article mentions, many Christian women who have abortions TALK opposition but switch sides when the matter when they become personally involved with an unwanted pregnancy.

If even most of the males involved agree with the abortion, that makes a million people per year "distancing themselves from god" and being hypocritical. What does this say about "faith" vs. reality?

[Cathar1950]

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You are greatly separated from God if you have the kind of mindset to get an abortion.

Thus, a half a million women who thought they were Christian before getting pregnant are "greatly separated from god"???? Who is authorized to decide the position of those women with respect to "god"?

Of greater significance in my opinion, is the willingness of a half a million Christian women (and presumably some, many or most of men by whom they became pregnant) to go directly against the teachings they claim to follow -- when a matter of convenience or personal preference arises. As the article mentions, many Christian women who have abortions TALK opposition but switch sides when the matter when they become personally involved with an unwanted pregnancy.

If even most of the males involved agree with the abortion, that makes a million people per year "distancing themselves from god" and being hypocritical. What does this say about "faith" vs. reality?

I find it amazing that some Christians actually claim other Christians are somehow "greatly" separated from God.
In the days of Jesus people left unwanted children in the wilderness to die. Sometimes they were found by sectarian groups and raised yet this pos birth abortion was never mentioned b Jesus, go figure. Yet some claim to know how God Himself feels about it.
I was reading that miscarriages, are also known as abortions and end up in the statistics.

[InTheFlesh]

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Many people are hypocrites. Many people who claim to be Christian do not follow the teachings of Christ. Am I missing the point of your question?

I doubt that you have missed the point of my question because you are making excuses for Christianity " and have attempted to exclude self-identified Christians from Christianity.

1) Are people hypocrites if they claim to be Christian but do not follow the teachings of Christ?

2) Are hypocrites not Christian?

3) Are Christians not hypocrites?

Yes, Yes and Yes!

They are hypocrites.
BUT why are you telling it to those
who are opposed to abortion?
Exactly what point are you making
besides religion being false?

Why don't you ask OnceConvinced
in all the years he was a "Christian"
if he is aware of ANY abortions from his co-Christians?

[Zzyzx]

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BUT why are you telling it to those who are opposed to abortion?

It is my understanding that these threads are read by supporters AND opponents of abortion. Do you disagree?

Exactly what point are you making besides religion being false?

That will do for the moment. Thank you for the assistance in that regard.

Why don't you ask OnceConvinced in all the years he was a "Christian" if he is aware of ANY abortions from his co-Christians?

If you think a question should be asked, by all means ask it. Why would I ask OC something that is immaterial to the discussion?

Do you expect Christians to be more likely to announce their abortions or to keep them secret?

You apparently self-identify as Christian. Is that correct? If Christians are hypocrites (as you seem to say) and you are a Christian, are you therefore a hypocrite?

[InTheFlesh]

I am.
But not in this conversation.

I understand that you need to defend your claims to the readers
but keep in mind that you are not debating them. Isn't what you're doing the same as preaching?

How would that be immaterial if your claims are about mainstream "Christianity"?
Why not ask him and see if he knows any to see if they can defend themselves?
So you throw these stats around and have no interest in speaking to the specific people to find out why that is? That's like not wanting to introduce the evidence in your court case. What do they say about their belief in God and why they decided to have the abortion? Those stats you bring up include alot of DIFFERENT women from all races. Why do you attempt to speak for them all? Why are you judging them for having an abortion if you feel it's ok?
Who is the hypocrite?

[Zzyzx]

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I am.
But not in this conversation.

Are you acknowledging that you as a person are a hypocrite " but claim that you are not displaying that characteristic in this thread?

If so, how do you decide when to be hypocritical and when to not be?

I understand that you need to defend your claims to the readers but keep in mind that you are not debating them.

1) Kindly quote verbatim a claim that I "need to defend" (or one that has not been supported).

2) Who do you feel is my opposition in this thread?

3) I have seen no indication that you understand a need to defend or verify claims. Is that a new policy you are trying to initiate? Will you apply the policy to yourself at some point and begin actually attempting to substantiate your claims?

Isn't what you're doing the same as preaching?

I am encouraging you to demonstrate the defects in "religious thinking".

How would that be immaterial if your claims are about mainstream "Christianity"?

One person's experiences are not significant indication of the activities of half a million people.

Why not ask him and see if he knows any to see if they can defend themselves?

If you believe there are significant questions to ask, by all means ASK THEM.

I do not require or request your assistance in constructing my position.

So you throw these stats around and have no interest in speaking to the specific people to find out why that is?

What would be accomplished by speaking to one person (a male) about the abortions of half a million Christian women?

That's like not wanting to introduce the evidence in your court case.

Thank you for being concerned about what I do or do not choose to present or pursue. However, it might be wise to give that concern to your own "positions" rather than attempting to counsel others.

What do they say about their belief in God and why they decided to have the abortion?

What individual women say about their belief in god or why they decided to have an abortion is not my concern and is not the subject of this thread.

I am not concerned about the individual beliefs of half a million women " other than that they self-identify as Christians.

Those stats you bring up include alot of DIFFERENT women from all races.

NO???? Are you serious?

Three things they have in common according to the articles cited:
1) They are female humans
2) They self-identify as Christians
3) They have abortions

Why do you attempt to speak for them all?

I make no attempt to "speak for them all" " in any way. I simply note that they self-identify as Christians and they have abortions " a half a million times a year " and ASK if that is hypocritical.

Why are you judging them for having an abortion if you feel it's ok?

I APPROVE of women having an abortion if they do not wish to be pregnant. Is that "judging" them?

I question people claiming to be opposed to abortion and/or supporting organizations which oppose abortion THEN having abortions themselves half a million times per year.

Who is the hypocrite?

The hypocrites are those who say they oppose abortion or support organizations that oppose abortion THEN have abortions themselves " a half a million times a year.

That fits the definition of hypocrite "a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion". Do you agree?

What, exactly, are you attempting to defend or debate in this thread? Do you have a position that you can state?

[Flail]

Is there anything in the bible that Christians rely upon to believe that God prohibits aborting potential human beings?

IMO, any God would say...." I can't understand why you humans don't use available scienctific methods to abort an unwanted,deformed or damaged fetus. Why would you want to bring suffering into the world?"

[Vanguard]

The hypocrites are those who say they oppose abortion or support organizations that oppose abortion THEN have abortions themselves " a half a million times a year.

That fits the definition of hypocrite "a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion". Do you agree?

Z, I'm seeking clarification. If one supports a religion that claims opposition to committing sin and if that same person sins would that make him a hypocrite in your eyes?

[Zzyzx]

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The hypocrites are those who say they oppose abortion or support organizations that oppose abortion THEN have abortions themselves " a half a million times a year.

That fits the definition of hypocrite "a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion". Do you agree?

Z, I'm seeking clarification. If one supports a religion that claims opposition to committing sin and if that same person sins would that make him a hypocrite in your eyes?

Vanguard,

The term "sin" has no meaning to me. Although I am aware of the word's definition, I regard it as strictly a religious construct. As such it has no more a part of my decision processes than "gods" or "ghosts" or "grace" or "salvation". I have no opinion regarding what might constitute "sin".

However, I can state that if a person supports an organization that opposed abortion AND speaks against abortion then has an abortion, I DO consider them a hypocrite. If they just support the organization (say lukewarm) without personal opposition to abortion, I may view them less harshly (as only semi-hypocritical) if they have an abortion.

That applies broad spectrum, not just to religion. If a person belongs to or supports an organization that is known to commit criminal acts, then claims to be a law-abiding citizen, I consider them a hypocrite.

More important; however, I regard a religion itself as at least complicit in the hypocrisy if it claims to strongly oppose abortion (and attempts to restrict the rights of others to have abortions) yet a half million of its members have abortions annually.