Arguing hard against Christianity = Not wanting to believe?

[OnceConvinced]

In another thread, these comments were made to another member:

The reason I can't understand that you are struggling TO believe is because you argue so strongly against the idea. I mean, you don't just raise questions or throw up a mental block now & then - you really argue hard, opposing any possibility, from what I can see on this forum.

The person this was said to said that they were struggling to believe in God, where is Justifyothers believes he is trying not to believe.

So, if a skeptic argues very hard against religion, seeming not to back down, does that mean they don't want to believe? Does it mean they don't want to believe in God?

[onefaith]

Pardon me - pleases don't include me in your guilt trip of 'everyone has sinned"

I have not.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". I am not giving you a guilt trip. I'm stating a fact.
Have you lied, even a little white lie?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever been selfish?
Have you ever been angry and done something rash because of it?
Have you ever said "Oh my God"?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever cheated?
Gossiped?
Hurt someone?
Been jealous of someone?
Wanted something you don't have?

There's a whole lot more sins, but I've listed enough. I've sinned, you've sinned, everybody has sinned. Saying you haven't is a lie, which is a sin. I'm not trying to include you in any guilt trip - if I were, I wouldn't have said that I have sinned. I'm also not trying to attack you.

That is Paul's opinion and means about as much as anyone and carries the same weight.
Other passages in the Bible call some humans righteous with no mention of being righteous because of faith which would be more like faithfulness or trust not belief.
Given the assumed nature of God by definition everything would fall short of the glory of God.

Pauls opinion? Have you ever met someone who hasn't sinned?

[onefaith]

Pardon me - pleases don't include me in your guilt trip of 'everyone has sinned"

I have not.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". I am not giving you a guilt trip. I'm stating a fact.
Have you lied, even a little white lie?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever been selfish?
Have you ever been angry and done something rash because of it?
Have you ever said "Oh my God"?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever cheated?
Gossiped?
Hurt someone?
Been jealous of someone?
Wanted something you don't have?

There's a whole lot more sins, but I've listed enough. I've sinned, you've sinned, everybody has sinned. Saying you haven't is a lie, which is a sin. I'm not trying to include you in any guilt trip - if I were, I wouldn't have said that I have sinned. I'm also not trying to attack you.

The point is only the bible claims these things to be sins. The people who are talking about don't recognise many of those as "sins" but as natural human tendencies we are born with. Sin is purely a religious concept, much like the soul and the holy spirit are.

fair enough - by the way, onceconvinced, i appreciate your respectful attitude and your tendency to not go way overboard with the debates. i've noticed its much nicer debating with adults.

[Goat]

Pardon me - pleases don't include me in your guilt trip of 'everyone has sinned"

I have not.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". I am not giving you a guilt trip. I'm stating a fact.
Have you lied, even a little white lie?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever been selfish?
Have you ever been angry and done something rash because of it?
Have you ever said "Oh my God"?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever cheated?
Gossiped?
Hurt someone?
Been jealous of someone?
Wanted something you don't have?

There's a whole lot more sins, but I've listed enough. I've sinned, you've sinned, everybody has sinned. Saying you haven't is a lie, which is a sin. I'm not trying to include you in any guilt trip - if I were, I wouldn't have said that I have sinned. I'm also not trying to attack you.

That is Paul's opinion and means about as much as anyone and carries the same weight.
Other passages in the Bible call some humans righteous with no mention of being righteous because of faith which would be more like faithfulness or trust not belief.
Given the assumed nature of God by definition everything would fall short of the glory of God.

Pauls opinion? Have you ever met someone who hasn't sinned?

It's Paul's opinion those are sins.

Look at the passages that say sex outside of marriage is a sin. Every one from Paul.

[Cathar1950]

Pardon me - pleases don't include me in your guilt trip of 'everyone has sinned"

I have not.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". I am not giving you a guilt trip. I'm stating a fact.
Have you lied, even a little white lie?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever been selfish?
Have you ever been angry and done something rash because of it?
Have you ever said "Oh my God"?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever cheated?
Gossiped?
Hurt someone?
Been jealous of someone?
Wanted something you don't have?

There's a whole lot more sins, but I've listed enough. I've sinned, you've sinned, everybody has sinned. Saying you haven't is a lie, which is a sin. I'm not trying to include you in any guilt trip - if I were, I wouldn't have said that I have sinned. I'm also not trying to attack you.

That is Paul's opinion and means about as much as anyone and carries the same weight.
Other passages in the Bible call some humans righteous with no mention of being righteous because of faith which would be more like faithfulness or trust not belief.
Given the assumed nature of God by definition everything would fall short of the glory of God.

Pauls opinion? Have you ever met someone who hasn't sinned?

I guess it depends on what you want to mean by sin.
When a child is learning to walk and falls is the child sinning?
It falls short of the glory of God and older humans.
Do you mean mistakes? That is one way we learn.
Much of the NT seems to indicate sin is just disobedience following some of the OT ideas.
In the Garden of Eden myth mans doesn't fall in fact he becomes like the gods.

[JoeyKnothead]

Are you aware that in Middle Eastern and Asian countries, and many other countries all over the world, Christians are the ones being beaten, tortured, and thrown in jail, just for owning a bible or having underground churches? There's a book called Jesus Freaks containing hundreds of stories of true events that are happening and have happened all over the world, just because people are Christians. I don't know if you're saying its Christians who do this kind of stuff or not, but if you are, you should read about what's happening to Christians all over the world too.

I was speaking of oppressions by all religions, and their shared histories of violence in their brand's name. This violence is often brought about specifically because the text says so, or because it is interpreted to do so. Violence done in the name of a God, who by allowing it, could be reasonably assumed to condone it. Or its just more of man finding any reason necessary to inflict pain on others. While I think it is the latter, where God could be proven to exist, and I'm aware He has allowed violence in His name, I am still compelled to reject Him.

If someone is to blame, its the person, not the religion.

Nope, if someone commits violence specifically because of their beliefs, because they have been indoctrinated into believing anyone not of their belief is a lesser human being, then I condemn their beliefs with the maximum amount of condemnation allowable by law, and these forums.

By no means do I think the beliefs you, Ms. onefaith, hold are violent. I have no reason to believe you will act to harm another because of your faith. But the problem is when you as a Christian, have the same label as another Christian who does act violently, and declares his violence to be in the same name as the beliefs your label holds. So then I come to a conflict. Do I hold the Christian system of Ms. onefaith's beliefs to be correct, or the system of Christian X's system to be correct? Of course I would hope your system would be correct, but where Christian X has shown through his interpretation of the same text you read from to accept his violence, then by default I must condemn the whole of Christianity to be reading from a book that is itself violent.
Just as the religious say to love the sinner, and hate the sin, I can try to love the good (Ms. onefaith) and condemn the bad (parts of Ms. onefaith's shared belief with the violent Christian X).
To the best of my knowledge the Big Three religions I'm aware of have texts that support oppression of the non-believer, or the 'other' believer. As I've said, I reject any God who would accept violence in His name. And I will speak out against this God 'strongly, loudly, and oftenly'.

[onefaith]

I see why you think that. It's completely understandable, and I think its terrible when anyone of any religion does things to hurt people or cause damage. There is definately bad stuff going on in the world, and maybe it seems like God wants it to happen because he's not doing much about it, but remember that God doesn't force people to do things or not to do things. If someone is about to kill a person, he most likely won't strike that person dead or anything. But I still don't think we should blame God. People are full of sin, that's what happened after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. So at least some of the bad stuff can be blamed on the people. Natural disasters...who said it's anything God did? About religious people, IF they are actually acting out of what their religion or what their God tells them to do, and the religion actually does say "do this", then yes, I believe the religion should be blamed. But can you name a verse of the bible that actually tells the believer to do something bad to someone who's not a believer? A person who is a "Christian" might do something bad, but if the bible doesn't actually say that they can do that, then it really is just the person's fault. The person might have taken the bible the wrong way, or they could be crazy, or they could do something that they think God told them to do that God really didnt' tell them to do. God's most important commandments are to love God and love others. Doing anything contradictory to loving others or loving God isn't something that God told them to do.

[onefaith]

But the problem is when you as a Christian, have the same label as another Christian who does act violently, and declares his violence to be in the same name as the beliefs your label holds.

God commands us not to judge others. If a Christian acts violently because they have judged another person as a lesser human being, then that Christian is at fault, but Christianity itself isn't, because God specifically said "dont judge" and one of the ten commandments is "dont even think of hurting another person". So this "Christian" is disobeying God, and therefore God isn't at fault, nor is the religion. If another Christian, instead of hurting people, obeys God by loving others, doing good for them, etc, because they have obeyed God, this is an act that is done in Jesus's or God's name. In this case, God/Jesus should be given the responsibility for the person's actions. I'm not saying this to make Christianity look good - I'm saying this because if a Christian does something good, they should be doing it to give glory to God and not themselves. If that person took all the credit, that would prove that they are prideful and selfish. But if the person did it all for the glory of God, that person is showing people that God isn't all bad, that perhaps he is actually good, and I believe that is how Christians should witness to nonbelievers instead of saying "you're going to hell because you're not a Christian".

[JoeyKnothead]

But the problem is when you as a Christian, have the same label as another Christian who does act violently, and declares his violence to be in the same name as the beliefs your label holds.

God commands us not to judge others. If a Christian acts violently because they have judged another person as a lesser human being, then that Christian is at fault, but Christianity itself isn't, because God specifically said "dont judge" and one of the ten commandments is "dont even think of hurting another person". So this "Christian" is disobeying God, and therefore God isn't at fault, nor is the religion. If another Christian, instead of hurting people, obeys God by loving others, doing good for them, etc, because they have obeyed God, this is an act that is done in Jesus's or God's name. In this case, God/Jesus should be given the responsibility for the person's actions. I'm not saying this to make Christianity look good - I'm saying this because if a Christian does something good, they should be doing it to give glory to God and not themselves. If that person took all the credit, that would prove that they are prideful and selfish. But if the person did it all for the glory of God, that person is showing people that God isn't all bad, that perhaps he is actually good, and I believe that is how Christians should witness to nonbelievers instead of saying "you're going to hell because you're not a Christian".

I think I see what you're getting at. Just because someone acts in a violent way because of their belief, I still should look to what the belief actually does say. Of course then we get into errors of interpretation, but I do admit that the majority of Christians do say that we should love one another. I gotta quit blaming the majority for the crimes of the minority.

I seem to concentrate so much on the violence done in a religion's name, rather than the good. I can see your point though, because I disagree when folks say 'he did this bad thing because he's an atheist'. But I seem to be quick to say that when its a religious person goofing up. Good point.

But now I'm mad at you for pointing out my own prejudice.

[onefaith]

But now I'm mad at you for pointing out my own prejudice.

haha. you're a pretty cool person too

[bernee51]

Pardon me - pleases don't include me in your guilt trip of 'everyone has sinned"

I have not.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God".

Sin then is going against god's laws.

There is no god therefore there is no sin.

[
I am not giving you a guilt trip. I'm stating a fact.

Sorry you are stating an opinion - not a fact.

[
Have you lied, even a little white lie?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever been selfish?
Have you ever been angry and done something rash because of it?
Have you ever said "Oh my God"?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever cheated?
Gossiped?
Hurt someone?
Been jealous of someone?
Wanted something you don't have?

These are not sins, AFAIAC.

Note that I did not say I have not done things that may be considered by others immoral. Note that I did not say I have not done things in the past that I may now consdider not to have been in my best interests or the best interests of others.

There's a whole lot more sins, but I've listed enough. I've sinned, you've sinned, everybody has sinned.

I repeat...I have nor sinned. To claim 'everybody has sinned' is an opinion, not a fact.

Saying you haven't is a lie, which is a sin. I'm not trying to include you in any guilt trip - if I were, I wouldn't have said that I have sinned. I'm also not trying to attack you.

I understand completely that you are not trying to attack me. I also understand why you believe all the world is a sinner. I also understand why you believe these things to be sins. I am merely pointing out that you are wrong.

Christianity is, in part, a guilt trip. It is emotional blackmail.