How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

[Compassionist]

How do we know what is right, and what is wrong? For example, I think it is wrong to be a herbivore or a carnivore or an omnivore, or a parasite. I think all living things should be autotrophs. I think only autotrophs are good and the rest are evil. However, I am not certain that my thoughts are right. Can herbivores, carnivores, omnivores, and parasites become autotrophs at will? If so, why don't they? If they can't become autotrophs at will, is it really their fault that they are not autotrophs?

[JoeyKnothead]

Your problem here is that at best you can only present a god's opinion, and appeal to that god as the smartest one in the room. What happens if Difflugia shows up? The Barbarian? DrNoGods? brunumb? Purple Knight? William? TRANSPONDER? Who am I missing?

On matters of opinion, there's no wrongn's, only bettern's

That’s not at all what I would appeal to. But we are focusing on atheism right now. I think we agree there that if atheism is true, then morality is subjective.

And the best theist can do is "if god exists"... Then declare that god's if of an opinion superior simply by virtue of being a god.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #17]

I’m confused. I’m claiming that atheism leads to subjective morality, not objective morality, you seemed to be contesting that, but your response seems to be agreeing with that.

Morality is subjective. Even our perception of reality is subjective. How can I possibly know anything objectively? Can you prove solipsism to be false? Can you prove to me that you are not a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream or a philosophical zombie?

There are only three things I am 100% certain about:
1. I am a sentient being.
2. I can't do an infinite number of things even though I want to do them desperately e.g. make all living things forever happy, go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths, make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, etc.
3. I am constantly doing things I don't want to do e.g. sleeping, dreaming, aging, breathing, etc.

There is one thing I am 50% certain about:
1. The reality I perceive through my senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin) is actually real as opposed to being a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream. This includes having a body, the existence of the universe, the existence of other organisms, etc.

[The Tanager]

And the best theist can do is "if god exists"... Then declare that god's if of an opinion superior simply by virtue of being a god.

If we move onto that part of this discussion, then feel free to bring that back up if that’s all I do or you just want to respond with empty rhetoric.

[The Tanager]

Morality is subjective. Even our perception of reality is subjective. How can I possibly know anything objectively? Can you prove solipsism to be false? Can you prove to me that you are not a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream or a philosophical zombie?

There are only three things I am 100% certain about:
1. I am a sentient being.
2. I can't do an infinite number of things even though I want to do them desperately e.g. make all living things forever happy, go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths, make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, etc.
3. I am constantly doing things I don't want to do e.g. sleeping, dreaming, aging, breathing, etc.

There is one thing I am 50% certain about:
1. The reality I perceive through my senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin) is actually real as opposed to being a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream. This includes having a body, the existence of the universe, the existence of other organisms, etc.

So then you agree with me, right? If atheism is true, then “you having sex with your mother is neither right nor wrong, because there is no objective standard to judge it right or wrong against. The same with helping a child drowning. It may be subjectively right or wrong, but such a concept is entirely unhelpful, as it just tells us what certain people like or dislike, not whether they should do such-and-such or refrain from it.”

[Compassionist]

Morality is subjective. Even our perception of reality is subjective. How can I possibly know anything objectively? Can you prove solipsism to be false? Can you prove to me that you are not a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream or a philosophical zombie?

There are only three things I am 100% certain about:
1. I am a sentient being.
2. I can't do an infinite number of things even though I want to do them desperately e.g. make all living things forever happy, go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths, make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, etc.
3. I am constantly doing things I don't want to do e.g. sleeping, dreaming, aging, breathing, etc.

There is one thing I am 50% certain about:
1. The reality I perceive through my senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin) is actually real as opposed to being a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream. This includes having a body, the existence of the universe, the existence of other organisms, etc.

So then you agree with me, right? If atheism is true, then “you having sex with your mother is neither right nor wrong, because there is no objective standard to judge it right or wrong against. The same with helping a child drowning. It may be subjectively right or wrong, but such a concept is entirely unhelpful, as it just tells us what certain people like or dislike, not whether they should do such-and-such or refrain from it.”

No, I don't agree with you 100%. I said that morality is subjective. I also said that our perception of reality is subjective. It does not mean that God exists or that God is an objective source of morality. Both secular and religious morality are equally subjective.

[The Tanager]

No, I don't agree with you 100%. I said that morality is subjective. I also said that our perception of reality is subjective. It does not mean that God exists or that God is an objective source of morality. Both secular and religious morality are equally subjective.

I just meant that we agree that if atheism is true, then morality is subjective. Moral choices are just like ice cream tastes. So, why aren't you as outraged about people who don't like the same ice cream flavor as you as you are about those who think it's okay to damage others?

Whether some forms of theistic morality would lead to objective morality or not is a great question, but I want to focus on this one first before we move on.

[Compassionist]

No, I don't agree with you 100%. I said that morality is subjective. I also said that our perception of reality is subjective. It does not mean that God exists or that God is an objective source of morality. Both secular and religious morality are equally subjective.

I just meant that we agree that if atheism is true, then morality is subjective. Moral choices are just like ice cream tastes. So, why aren't you as outraged about people who don't like the same ice cream flavor as you as you are about those who think it's okay to damage others?

Whether some forms of theistic morality would lead to objective morality or not is a great question, but I want to focus on this one first before we move on.

I am an agnostic. I don't know if either theism or atheism is true. Morality is subjective regardless of whether atheism or theism is true. Religions can't give us objective morality. They can't give us an objective perception of reality either. The reason I am upset about the suffering and the death of a human and a cow and a chicken and a fish and all the other sentient organisms is that I am 50% convinced that they real and sentient as opposed to being simulations. The reason I am not upset about which flavour of ice-cream is eaten by organisms is that does not cause any harm to any sentient living thing as long as the ice-cream is made with vegan ingredients.

[The Tanager]

Morality is subjective regardless of whether atheism or theism is true. Religions can't give us objective morality.

I disagree, but I want to stay on the atheistic half of the discussion for the moment. I find that to be a more organized way to give each half its due engagement.

The reason I am upset about the suffering and the death of a human and a cow and a chicken and a fish and all the other sentient organisms is that I am 50% convinced that they real and sentient as opposed to being simulations. The reason I am not upset about which flavour of ice-cream is eaten by organisms is that does not cause any harm to any sentient living thing as long as the ice-cream is made with vegan ingredients.

If morality is subjective, then it’s simply a taste of yours that harm is something to get upset about. Not getting upset about the harm of others is a different taste that you don’t have. Why not treat those tastes the same way you treat vegan ice cream tastes?

[Compassionist]

Morality is subjective regardless of whether atheism or theism is true. Religions can't give us objective morality.

I disagree, but I want to stay on the atheistic half of the discussion for the moment. I find that to be a more organized way to give each half its due engagement.

The reason I am upset about the suffering and the death of a human and a cow and a chicken and a fish and all the other sentient organisms is that I am 50% convinced that they real and sentient as opposed to being simulations. The reason I am not upset about which flavour of ice-cream is eaten by organisms is that does not cause any harm to any sentient living thing as long as the ice-cream is made with vegan ingredients.

If morality is subjective, then it’s simply a taste of yours that harm is something to get upset about. Not getting upset about the harm of others is a different taste that you don’t have. Why not treat those tastes the same way you treat vegan ice cream tastes?

It's fine by me that you disagree with me. What is the basis for your disagreement with me?

Causing suffering and death to sentient beings is categorically different from one's taste in ice-cream flavours.

[JoeyKnothead]

And the best theist can do is "if god exists"... Then declare that god's if of an opinion superior simply by virtue of being a god.

If we move onto that part of this discussion, then feel free to bring that back up if that’s all I do or you just want to respond with empty rhetoric.

We're all aware the theist considers anything that doesn't comport to their religious beliefs to be "empty rhetoric".

As we note nothing in your comment here refutes my referenced statement, presented in light of your own previous statement regarding atheist beliefs in this matter.