Was the massacre at Mountain Meadows the only massacre of Mo

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Witch of Hope

Was the massacre at Mountain Meadows the only massacre of Mo

Post #1

Post by Witch of Hope »

I went to an internet page of former members of the LDS yesterday. One of them has translated the books from J. & S. Tanner into German for years. Unlike the Tanners he is not a Christian but what I mention a "freethinker".
There was a link to a web page on this internet page which reported of further massacre, of which 26 people were the victim. Only two boys and a girl survived. All of them was cut the throat. Here now the report of the original web page:

http://www.blackhawkproductions.com/circleville.htm

I quote:
The captured Indians, 26 in all, showed a lot of unrest, then on the evening of the following day some of the Indians were able to cut themselves loose from their bindings and make a break. In the excitement the two Indians trying to free themselves were shot and killed by the guards. The remainder of the Indians were then taken to a nearby underground cellar and imprisoned there. The captured Indians knew they were going to be killed, they could feel it.
The settlers had another meeting and it was decided among them to kill the remaining captured Indian people. And so it was one by one they were led out of the cellar, 24 in all.
There were women, men, and children, and they were first struck from behind on the head to stun them, then their throats were cut and their bodies held to the ground until they bled to death. A terrified mother of two young boys and one girl, seven or eight years of age, told her crying children to run for their lives, and when the door was opened for the next victim to be killed the three made a break and forced their way past the guards and ran. In the dark of night the guards fired several shots at the three but were unable to hit them. One was shot in the
side but the bullet barely grazed his rib, not enough to stop him. It is safe to say the mother never knew if her children had managed to escape.
It was a cold-blooded execution. As each person sat in line waiting for their death to come. And what state of mind dose one have to be in to carry out such a heinous deed, resisting the cries and pleadings of each poor sole as they beg for their life to be spared? And what kind of person could run his blade across an innocent child's throat? It's reaches far beyond anyone's ability to fully comprehend the dark evil of that night in Circleville. (...)
When Brigham Young heard of the details of this heinous crime he was upset, but did nothing more than verbally chastise the murders. Later they were praised by other members for having done their dirty deed well. The saints at Circleville did all they could to cover up the tragic event, saying that they acted in self defense when the Indians attacked the guards. But in time the event leaked to the news, but curiously none of the aggressors were prosecuted. (...)
A day following the killings, two Indian boys and one girl were found hiding in a nearby cave, where taken to the nearest town Marysvale, Utah. Jackson Allred then took one of the boys, who may have been 8 or 9 years of age at the time,
to Spring City. There Allred spoke with a family who was interested in taking care of the boy, and said to them, he would trade a horse for the boy, otherwise he would just kill him. Allred agreed to the payment of a horse and a bushel of wheat, and the Monson family took the boy in and raised him. He was given the name David Munsen. The spelling of the last name was changed as the Monson family, I was told, didn't want their name in connection with an Indian.(...)
And members of the LDS had tried again to cover-up something. This draws himself by ecclesiastical history like a recurring theme: cover-up and the fault then giving the to the victims.

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Post #21

Post by Nickman »

The Mormon wrote: In accordance with your story, I suspect; that your inspiration did not come from the HS but from the opposite direction. The devil can deceive us and appear even as an "angel of light".
So the devil gave me facts about the massacre via archaeology, historical statements from LDS and secular sources, in an attempt to beguile me? That makes no sense. You prove why religion is a step backwards in human progression. You've heard of the dark ages right? Your type of thinking is one of the reasons those days were called the dark ages. It makes you deny factual evidence. And people wanna vote for Mitt Romney when the above statement is a product of your church. WOW

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Post #22

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

I believe the Lord and the Holy Ghost /Holy Spirit. I never trust other so called "evidences" or "proofs". Because they can change, but not the word of God.

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Post #23

Post by Nickman »

The Mormon wrote: I believe the Lord and the Holy Ghost /Holy Spirit. I never trust other so called "evidences" or "proofs". Because they can change, but not the word of God.
The lds faith has changed more than historical fact. There have been over 3000 changes to the BoM,the priesthood ban was changed due to social pressure, in the 1830 version of the BoM JS asserted the Trinity as truth. Later he changed his idea.

You don't trust other evidences or proofs because you are indoctrinated to believe only what your church says. If you only knew the lies you have been told by them.

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Post #24

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

Which "changes" in the BoM were these, then? Changes in the word order, in the sentence construction or words written wrongly. Do not forget that Joseph Smith had not studied at any university.
The colored persons get the priesthood, they were not changing but only fulfilling. Because God had promised the colored persons the priesthood. Some conditions had, however, to be satisfied before. And already there was in addition an Ekiah Abel in the time of Joseph Smith; this one had the priesthood. You can look everything up in church history.
We come to the trinity doctrine now. I know about it nothing, so I must inform myself at FAIR.

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Post #25

Post by Nickman »

The Mormon wrote: Which "changes" in the BoM were these, then? Changes in the word order, in the sentence construction or words written wrongly. Do not forget that Joseph Smith had not studied at any university.
The colored persons get the priesthood, they were not changing but only fulfilling. Because God had promised the colored persons the priesthood. Some conditions had, however, to be satisfied before. And already there was in addition an Ekiah Abel in the time of Joseph Smith; this one had the priesthood. You can look everything up in church history.
We come to the trinity doctrine now. I know about it nothing, so I must inform myself at FAIR.
Changes to the first vision for one start with other members as folows....
Brigham Young - "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)

Wilford Woodruff - "The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)

Wilford Woodruff - "Joseph was strengthened by the Spirit and power of God, and was enabled to listen to the teachings of the angel. ... The man to whom the angel appeared obeyed the Gospel." Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 197 (1855)

Heber C. Kimball - "Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our Prophet? God called upon him; but God did not come himself and call, but he sent Peter to do it." Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 29 (1857)

Orson Hyde - "Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)

John Taylor - "How did the state of things called Mormonism originate? We read that an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith" Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 127 (1863)

George A. Smith - "he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)

George A. Smith - "[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' " Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78 (1869)

Wilford Woodruff - "How did it [Mormonism] commence? It commenced by an angel of God flying through the midst of heaven and visiting a young man named Joseph Smith in the year 1827. ... The Lord heard his prayer and sent His angel to him, who informed him that all the sects were wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 324 (1869)

John Taylor - "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right." Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)

Oliver Cowdery - "You will remember that I mentioned the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been in the 15th year of our Brother J. Smith Jr.s age that was an error in the type — it should have been in the 17th. — You will please remember the correction, as it will be necessary for the full understanding of what will follow in time. This would bring the date down to the year 1823." Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 241 (1840)

Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)

"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)

Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)

Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)

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Post #26

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

Many quotations at one time. And I do not have the books or the access (also because of language); to be able to check all quotations. I have made the experience, however, generally that a quotation is often taken from the connection. An example:

In a German side of a former member of the church; I found a quotation about the Nazi period and how the church and their representatives shall have behaved there. Said briefly: All of them shall have crept for Hitler into his lean vegetarian ass.
But if you read the whole article, which this quotation refers; you can found out, that there were only few members of the church who had been taken in by the propaganda of to Hitlewr and his gang.


Please so understand if I can't believe you without checking this quotations.
Nickman wrote: Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)

"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)

Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)

Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)
The dating of the sources is wrong. Photocopies of these quotations can be seen in the book of Jerold & Sandra Tanner, "Changing World of Mormonism". And all of them date a long time after brother Joseph was murdered.. So the assertion appeared in an article of the Deseret news of 5-29-1852; only angels seemed to his that in the first vision. And Times & Seasons was in the magazine that Smith had seen Nephi allegedly. This photocopy of the Tanners also can be found on page 409 of their book. An appearance date has not been indicated; only this detail: vol.3, p. 753.
There is a cross-reference to the "History of The Church". But also there is no date. So it can be good that it was published only after the death of brother Joseph.
Whoever has made a mistake here does not have to be stated any more certainly.
There is a party game in Switzerland; by having to remember things and being supposed to repeat later. Things are often forgotten or taken to another order. I could everything he said imagine that those, these wrote down the life-story of Joseph Smith, had not written down correctly. Not from a bad intention, because all of us are not perfect.

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Post #27

Post by Nickman »

The Mormon wrote: Many quotations at one time. And I do not have the books or the access (also because of language); to be able to check all quotations. I have made the experience, however, generally that a quotation is often taken from the connection. An example:

In a German side of a former member of the church; I found a quotation about the Nazi period and how the church and their representatives shall have behaved there. Said briefly: All of them shall have crept for Hitler into his lean vegetarian ass.
But if you read the whole article, which this quotation refers; you can found out, that there were only few members of the church who had been taken in by the propaganda of to Hitlewr and his gang.


Please so understand if I can't believe you without checking this quotations.
Nickman wrote: Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)

"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)

Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)

Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)
The dating of the sources is wrong. Photocopies of these quotations can be seen in the book of Jerold & Sandra Tanner, "Changing World of Mormonism". And all of them date a long time after brother Joseph was murdered.. So the assertion appeared in an article of the Deseret news of 5-29-1852; only angels seemed to his that in the first vision. And Times & Seasons was in the magazine that Smith had seen Nephi allegedly. This photocopy of the Tanners also can be found on page 409 of their book. An appearance date has not been indicated; only this detail: vol.3, p. 753.
There is a cross-reference to the "History of The Church". But also there is no date. So it can be good that it was published only after the death of brother Joseph.
Whoever has made a mistake here does not have to be stated any more certainly.
There is a party game in Switzerland; by having to remember things and being supposed to repeat later. Things are often forgotten or taken to another order. I could everything he said imagine that those, these wrote down the life-story of Joseph Smith, had not written down correctly. Not from a bad intention, because all of us are not perfect.
These quotes are dated correctly. You can find them in your own LDS historical archives. The First Vision has changed several times. Originally it was angels who came to visit JS, not Jesus and Heavenly Father. This is from JS' own mouth. The quotes I posted show consistency among members and leaders of the church. They all claim the same thing, that it was originally an angel.

From other quotes we gather the angel's name, Nephi, not Moroni. The earliest dated accounts of the First vision have angels visiting JS in the grove, not the father and son. this was followed by Nephi visiting him in his bedroom.

Check this out

In 1855, Brigham Young, the second prophet of the LDS Church, proclaimed: “The Lord did not come…but He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith Jun. …and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong…�26. The fact that Brigham Young was not alone in his assessment that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel and not by the Father or the Son is evident in the following quotes from LDS prophets and apostles:

“He sought the Lord by day and by night, and was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of his first inquires was, ‘Which of the denominations of the Christians in the vicinity was right?’ He was told they had all gone astray.…he was, consequently, directed not to join any one of them.…�—George A. Smith, 1869, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78

“How did it commence? It commenced by an angel of God…visiting a young man named Joseph Smith, in the year 1827. That was the time of a great awakening.…He went into his secret chamber and asked the Lord what he must do to be saved. The Lord heard his prayer and sent His angel to him, who informed him that all the sects were wrong.…�—Wilford Woodruff, 1869, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 324

“None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right.…�—John Taylor, 1879, Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 166

“Some one may say, ‘If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Savior come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?’ Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else.�—Orson Hyde, 1854, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335


Above we have two Presidents of the church, or prophets, and two Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stating that God and Jesus never came down in the first vision. They all agree it was angels who visited him. How are these supposed Prophets, seers and revelators gonna get the first vision wrong in unison?

The first vision has changed and history has been hidden by your church. Your church leadership has sat down and sorted through the contradictory statements and first vision accounts, and has chosen the best one to present to the public. The first vision you currently believe is not the original and conflicts with LDS prophets that actually knew Smith.

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Post #28

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

It is obvious for me; that you must hate the church very much. Why?

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Post #29

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The Mormon wrote: It is obvious for me; that you must hate the church very much. Why?
Its not so much I hate it, it is more the fact that I don't like lies and people to be lied to. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. I use this forum as a way to express my understandings and gain knowledge with people who are here to do the same. In my normal everyday life, I don't debate about such things unless someone brings the argument to me. Your here on a debate forum, so if you post something I disagree with, I will voice my opinion. I always make sure to the best of my ability to ensure what I post has evidence behind it.

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Post #30

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

Nickman wrote:
Its not so much I hate it,
So you admit that you also hate the church?
Nickman wrote: it is more the fact that I don't like lies and people to be lied to.
I do not know how old you are; but I have already seen much regarding this. No matter whether it was parties and religions.
To a topic one can have different assessments also if both sides have the same facts. You say the church would lie, I say that she does not do it. That this impression can arise by the fact that one does not know all facts.
Do you know e.g. the story of the Kinderhook plates? Today, it is proved, that not Joseph Smith but his secretary, Wiliam Clayton, carried the main blame; because he had the Informatonen; he got this one from brother Joseph, passed on wrongly.
Nickman wrote: Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. I use this forum as a way to express my understandings and gain knowledge with people who are here to do the same. In my normal everyday life, I don't debate about such things unless someone brings the argument to me.
These are some of the few points where we finally agree!
Nickman wrote: Your here on a debate forum, so if you post something I disagree with, I will voice my opinion. I always make sure to the best of my ability to ensure what I post has evidence behind it.
Many of your sources are from fundamentalist and/or Christian internet pages. Therefore of people who want or can't consider us a Christians. So as if they had a monopoly for Christianity.
I have a request to you:

Please quote not short sections but also the context. Please give the exact source and I promise you I will check it.

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