Can religion really claim to guide on morality?

[SolidSnake]

I have a question I would much appreciate some ideas on from those of faiths and also those of no faith.

"Can religious leaders and followers of a religion claim with conviction and a clear conscience that their faith be the very compass of morality that we all should follow?"

Isn't there a huge amount of hypocrisy in this? There are many quotes and teachings in holy books that fly in the face of what we would call moral and even by todays standards we would feel were totally immoral.

[Choir Loft]

So if I understand you, God is going to inflict eternal torment on me for not believing in Him,?

What God does or does not do to you is up to God, not you.

The upside is that salvation is possible and available.
Neither blessing nor curse is up to you, it is all God.

If a man is saved, it is due to the grace and gift of God and has nothing at all to do with what the man may have done either good or bad.

The good news is that God has chosen to offer peace.
If He comes to you, do not refuse Him.

but He's deliberately hiding from me?

God deliberately hides Himself. That is a fact.
He does so for His purposes and His reasons.

Theological explanations are as full of holes as they are numerous.
The bottom line is that there is no set rule for God's hiding or revelation of Himself.

That He does indeed reveal Himself to certain people at certain times is true.
He reserves His reasons to Himself.

Because He doesn't love me, so He wants me to experience eternal torture? Is that all correct?

God does not love everyone. The dogma that He does is neither theologically correct nor evidenced in reality.

God is unjust as well as unfair.

Fairness is defined as equal treatment for all.

Do you see that in reality? God treats some people more 'fairly' than others and He does so for His reasons. He does not generally ask our permission and He does not require it. Equality of men before the laws of society is a possibility. Equality of men before God is a fantasy.

Justice is defined as punishment or reward a man deserves for his actions.

The Bible says that all men are in rebellion against God. Rebellion = sin and the penalty for sin is death. Therefore if God were to act justly He would condemn everyone, for that is what all of us deserve.

But everyone is not condemned. Is that justice? It is not, at least it isn't when viewed at street level. Christ died to take the just punishment you deserve. This allows God to be merciful and just at the same time.

Does God love you or hate you?

No man, not even you, knows if God loves you or not.
No man knows your ultimate fate.
God knows.

There is an old saying that you should be careful what you pray for as you may get it. Never pray for God's justice, for it is cruel. Pray instead for His mercy.

Since you do not know your ultimate fate, the wise course of action is to ask God for mercy and to ask with sincerity and diligence. Chances are good that He will hear your prayer and grant your petition for mercy.....for His reasons, not yours.

Who knows, you may discover that God loves you a great deal and that you were wrong to suppose that He didn't.

[Choir Loft]

And your evidence that the writer of the Gospel of Luke was correct, and that this is a 'guide to morality'? Why do you consider this rhetoric a guide to morality? What does it actually say beside 'believe because i say so?'

Where did I say anything about morality?

If you think the post was about morality, you missed the point completely.

THE POINT, is that human morality means nothing to God.
THE POINT, is that God wills and acts according to His reasons.

I didn't write that anyone should believe because I said to do so.
What you SHOULD do is earnestly and sincerely ask God for mercy.

Rumor has it that He answers that kind of prayer.

Throwing sand in the air and screaming at the wind will accomplish nothing.
A lot of folks have been doing that for quite a while. Has it born any result or has God simply remained aloof? God is really not impressed with that kind of thing.

If someone screamed insults and vulgar epithets at you day and night would you be moved to kindess or would you just turn your back and ignore them? And please don't say that God HAS to listen to that sort of rubbish, because He doesn't.......and He won't.

If you want to impress Him, try a little humility.......no, try a LOT of humility.
You may be surprised at what happens next.

[Goat]

And your evidence that the writer of the Gospel of Luke was correct, and that this is a 'guide to morality'? Why do you consider this rhetoric a guide to morality? What does it actually say beside 'believe because i say so?'

Where did I say anything about morality?

If you think the post was about morality, you missed the point completely.

Well, it was disjointed, but I assumed you were trying to be on topic.

The topic of this thread is 'Can religion really be a guide on Morality'.

Can you explain what you said meant, if it wasn't about the topic thread?? It seems to jump here and there.

[McCulloch]

So if I understand you, God is going to inflict eternal torment on me for not believing in Him,?

What God does or does not do to you is up to God, not you.

Yes, but the person who claims that there is a God and that the god behaves in a certain way, is obliged to support that claim, particularly if he is claiming that the god behaves in an unfair or unjust way.

If a man is saved, it is due to the grace and gift of God and has nothing at all to do with what the man may have done either good or bad.

All righty then. It is a crap shoot. Maybe I'm saved, maybe I'm condemned. It has nothing to do with me, we'll just have to wait and see what the god has in store for me.

The good news is that God has chosen to offer peace. If He comes to you, do not refuse Him.

I have never, to my knowledge, ever refused an offer from God. I have never accepted an offer from God either. God has been remarkably silent with me.

God deliberately hides Himself. That is a fact. He does so for His purposes and His reasons.

How can one differentiate between an omnipotent omniscient being who can perfectly hide himself and one who is not there at all?

Theological explanations are as full of holes as they are numerous.

You have my full agreement on this.

That He does indeed reveal Himself to certain people at certain times is true.

How do you know that? I don't know that God has revealed himself to anyone at any time.

God does not love everyone.

Again we agree. Can you show that God loves anyone? I cannot.

The Bible says that all men are in rebellion against God. Rebellion = sin and the penalty for sin is death. Therefore if God were to act justly He would condemn everyone, for that is what all of us deserve.

I have not rebelled against God. Why is it that eternal torment is considered a just punishment for a single misstep?

Christ died to take the just punishment you deserve. This allows God to be merciful and just at the same time.

No. It is not just to transfer the punishment deserved by one to an innocent albeit willing victim. If God is merciful, then he is not just.

There is an old saying that you should be careful what you pray for as you may get it. Never pray for God's justice, for it is cruel. Pray instead for His mercy.

Psalm 7 and Psalm 10.

[Choir Loft]

God deliberately hides Himself. That is a fact. He does so for His purposes and His reasons.

How can one differentiate between an omnipotent omniscient being who can perfectly hide himself and one who is not there at all?

The point isn't differentiation at all. It's rejection.
Rejection of the historic record contained in Holy Scripture.
Rejection of the testimony of those to whom He has indeed revealed Himself.
Rejection of the possibility that He may entertain kind intentions toward you.

How do you know that? I don't know that God has revealed himself to anyone at any time.

The point is that you do know. You've heard the stories and testimony well enough, long enough, and often enough to know all the details.

The point is that evidence is sufficient.
The point is that its rejected out of hand.
Until that is acknowledged, the argument is moot.

God does not love everyone.

Again we agree. Can you show that God loves anyone? I cannot.

It can be shown through the things He has done and by the testimony of those whom He has blessed.
Again, I testify that He personally, deliberately and physically removed me from death on a number of occasions.

The point isn't evidence, its rejection of it.
And that is the fulcrum upon which rebellion is balanced.

[Choir Loft]

And your evidence that the writer of the Gospel of Luke was correct, and that this is a 'guide to morality'? Why do you consider this rhetoric a guide to morality? What does it actually say beside 'believe because i say so?'

Where did I say anything about morality?

If you think the post was about morality, you missed the point completely.

Well, it was disjointed, but I assumed you were trying to be on topic.

The topic of this thread is 'Can religion really be a guide on Morality'.

Can you explain what you said meant, if it wasn't about the topic thread?? It seems to jump here and there.

Morality is a word that is bounced back and forth on this thread like a tennis ball.

Those that use morality,
to condemn,
actions of religious men,
justify themselves.

Those that use morality,
to condemn,
acts of God,
condemn themselves.

No man can judge God.
We can only,
seek and obey Him,
in humility and gratitude.

The Bible says that God's ways are not man's ways and that man cannot understand why God does what He does.

Yet we try.

It is human nature to be curious,
to seek understanding,
even when it evades us.

By this have we begun to unravel,
the mysteries of the universe.
By this have we cloaked and hidden
that which we fear to understand.

It is human nature to fear that which we do not understand,
it is human nature to justify ourselves in the midst of lawlessness.

Yet God offers,
a way out,
of this human morality trap.

In God's eyes,
human morality,
is not,
part of the equation.

God offers,
forgivness,
a new spirit.
A path away from destruction and loss,
a road out of hell.

Seek Him while you may,
for the time is coming,
when He may not be found at all,
and THAT is the eternal agony,

THAT is the trap of human morality.

[McCulloch]

Those that use morality, to condemn, acts of God, condemn themselves.

No man can judge God. We can only, seek and obey Him, in humility and gratitude.

I do not judge God. I cannot. However, I do judge the claims made about god by various humans. They say, "God wants all of us to do this or not do that." Well, I don't know what God wants and I suspect that no one else does either. But I'll give those who make such claims the opportunity to support their claims. How do you know that God wants you to do this or not do that? And, by extension, those who make the claim on behalf of others, are also judged. Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Paul or Mohammed says that God want us to do this or not do that. How do we know that those particular humans speak for God?

To my certain knowledge, I have never disobeyed God. I am completely unaware of any command that God has given to me to obey.

The Bible says that God's ways are not man's ways and that man cannot understand why God does what He does.

I would agree with the Bible writer in this instance. Clearly no human understands God. I certainly do not. I wonder why there are so many humans, each generation who act as if they do understand God. If God cannot be understood by humans, why do humans keep on telling us that they know what it is that God thinks, wants or plans?

Yet God offers, a way out, of this human morality trap.
In God's eyes, human morality, is not, part of the equation.
God offers, forgiveness, a new spirit. A path away from destruction and loss, a road out of hell.

Seek Him while you may, for the time is coming, when He may not be found at all, and THAT is the eternal agony,

See? RichardP, who has just finished explaining that we cannot understand God's motives, now contradicts himself by claiming to understand God. God offers forgiveness, he says. Maybe he does or maybe he does not. What possible support do you have for this assertion that you understand this aspect of God?

[Autodidact]

So if I understand you, God is going to inflict eternal torment on me for not believing in Him,?

What God does or does not do to you is up to God, not you.

The upside is that salvation is possible and available.
Neither blessing nor curse is up to you, it is all God.

If a man is saved, it is due to the grace and gift of God and has nothing at all to do with what the man may have done either good or bad.

The good news is that God has chosen to offer peace.
If He comes to you, do not refuse Him.

but He's deliberately hiding from me?

God deliberately hides Himself. That is a fact.
He does so for His purposes and His reasons.

Theological explanations are as full of holes as they are numerous.
The bottom line is that there is no set rule for God's hiding or revelation of Himself.

That He does indeed reveal Himself to certain people at certain times is true.
He reserves His reasons to Himself.

Because He doesn't love me, so He wants me to experience eternal torture? Is that all correct?

God does not love everyone. The dogma that He does is neither theologically correct nor evidenced in reality.

God is unjust as well as unfair.

Fairness is defined as equal treatment for all.

Do you see that in reality? God treats some people more 'fairly' than others and He does so for His reasons. He does not generally ask our permission and He does not require it. Equality of men before the laws of society is a possibility. Equality of men before God is a fantasy.

Justice is defined as punishment or reward a man deserves for his actions.

The Bible says that all men are in rebellion against God. Rebellion = sin and the penalty for sin is death. Therefore if God were to act justly He would condemn everyone, for that is what all of us deserve.

But everyone is not condemned. Is that justice? It is not, at least it isn't when viewed at street level. Christ died to take the just punishment you deserve. This allows God to be merciful and just at the same time.

Does God love you or hate you?

No man, not even you, knows if God loves you or not.
No man knows your ultimate fate.
God knows.

There is an old saying that you should be careful what you pray for as you may get it. Never pray for God's justice, for it is cruel. Pray instead for His mercy.

Since you do not know your ultimate fate, the wise course of action is to ask God for mercy and to ask with sincerity and diligence. Chances are good that He will hear your prayer and grant your petition for mercy.....for His reasons, not yours.

Who knows, you may discover that God loves you a great deal and that you were wrong to suppose that He didn't.

This is all so interesting. The being you describe sounds quite evil. Good thing He doesn't exist.

[Choir Loft]

I do not judge God. I cannot. However, I do judge the claims made about god by various humans. They say, "God wants all of us to do this or not do that." Well, I don't know what God wants and I suspect that no one else does either.

I agree with you in part. In as much as specific directions about God's desire for your life is concerned, no man can say. Donate 10% of your cash to so-and-so. Or 20% or more.....whatever. Things of this nature are for God to say and us to guess at.

See? RichardP, who has just finished explaining that we cannot understand God's motives, now contradicts himself by claiming to understand God. God offers forgiveness, he says. Maybe he does or maybe he does not. What possible support do you have for this assertion that you understand this aspect of God?

THAT we cannot understand God's motives fully is true.

Hey.....we don't understand our own motives half the time, or that of our neighbor. Why is it thought that to TRY to seek God first requires full understand of someone else's rational? His reasons? That is illogical. More than that, it's a trap meant to prevent a true spiritual pilgrimidge. A trap to snare us on the way to achieving a relationship beyond ourselves.

If you meet someone you are attracted to, do you halt the experience and the process of 'learning to know them' before the relationship has a chance to get started? Not usually. It's the same with God.

No man knows God's motives fully.....He hides most of them from us.
BUT we DO know and CAN know a few basic general things.

That man is born into sin.
That there is always a part of us that is very uncomfortable with the idea that He is sovereign over us, and not we ourselves.
Even among devoted Christians there is a tension between being glad that God is in charge and tugging against it.

Among sinners the objection to God's authority is totally contentious...even to the point that hatred of God is involved. It is part of the human experience.

It IS possible for God to intervene and to resolve the situation; to forgive, to heal and to grant understanding, BUT only on His terms and in His time, never ours.

I do not and can not say that I understand God's motives in all things, but what little I do know I state clearly.

God is.
God is dangerous as well as merciful.
It is wise to seek peace with Him.

[McCulloch]

I agree with you in part. In as much as specific directions about God's desire for your life is concerned, no man can say. Donate 10% of your cash to so-and-so. Or 20% or more.....whatever. Things of this nature are for God to say and us to guess at.

You and I must be reading different Bibles. The one I have says something about all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength, not a mere 10 to 20%.

BUT we DO know and CAN know a few basic general things.

I am a skeptic. My first question is how do you know these things?

That man is born into sin.

I don't know this.

God is.

I don't know this either.

God is dangerous as well as merciful.

Why call him "Father"?