Biblical morality/relevance? Noah

[Gone Apostate]

This is about one of the worst stories of them all, Noah and the flood.

I realize this may be an exhausted topic for some of the more active apologists, and disbelievers alike, but I hope some will find it worth a read, and a comment.

Since this is a discussion of the morality/relevance of this story we don’t need to get too much in to the logistic arguments for or against the possibility of the flood. Let’s just assume it could have happened. Noah, his family and the preserved samples of all species on the ark survive but EVERYTHING, everyone else, dies horrifically. Children, infants, kittens everything. The thought of any child panicked and gasping for air is monstrous, but all the children of existing humanity?

I have a really hard time with this one. There are other gems in the Bible, but the flood makes my top 5 for sure. I will be less antagonistic on most topics but on this one it’s difficult to strike even the pretense of objectivity. It might have to do with the fact that I personally took part in the teaching of this story to my children, and other children, toddlers on up.

This is one of the first stories children learn. This is the one that invariably is depicted in cheery cartoon scenes. We teach children that God’s morality is perfect while also teaching that he was directly responsible for the closest to complete genocide ever to occur. They are too young to question so they simply accept that it makes sense that some people deserve to die, if they are wicked enough.

What is the moral lesson here? Death is better than wickedness? Was God sparing those innocent children before they could be corrupted? I really would like someone’s perspective on this one. Is this defensible? If so, how?

Secondly, is there anything to take from this story that is relevant to us today? If so how do you apply the lessons of this story in your life?

I look forward to your comments, I really hope people are willing to participate in a discussion on this one, sooner or later.

Little Mormon trivia from an LDS apostate:
According to Mormon Doctrine Noah was also the angel Gabriel. Gabriel lived his earthly life as Noah.

Little belated Mormon trivia that should have gone with last post:
According to Mormon Doctrine the Garden of Eden was actually located in present day Missouri. The references to Ethiopia and the Euphrates River, is explained by these landmarks being located there prior to the super continent Pangaea being split up buy the great flood (so I guess it’s a little topical) and the renaming of geographic areas and landmarks after.

I guess this brings up a bonus question. For someone to believe in this Eden revelation by Joseph Smith, doesn’t the flood have to be a literal, historical account? If it was more metaphorical how then would the names be preserved? I can see how the creation story might be allegorical and therefore not present a challenge to a faithful LDS member that also accepts the science of evolution, but this little tidbit doesn’t seem to work the same way. This one seems to pretty much require a young earth theory. If I am wrong in this, I preemptively apologize and I look forward to being set straight.

Thank you for making it through all that. I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you.

[Autodidact]

To me the message of the Noah myth is one that is echoed throughout the OT: Obey God OR ELSE. That's it. Obey God or He'll kill you. Obey God or He'll turn you into a pillar of salt. Obey God when he says to stab babies to death. Obey God if He tells you to kill your own son. Just obey God period. That is the extent of this primitive moral system.

We find this believe system still relevant today among the preachers who tell us that all the bad things that happen are God punishing us (or failing to protect us) because we do not obey Him properly.

[Filthy Tugboat]

I don't have any problem taking the flood story literally. It helps if you read some of the non-canonical books that cover events before the flood. The book of Enoch covers alot of the reasoning for the flood and the evil that was being wiped out.

The main problem most people have with taking the flood story literally is the actual flood being impossible to live through, the Earth being decimated and uninhabitable after the flood and the unnecessary and gratuitous destruction the flood caused. Basically the result could have been achieved through different, more effective means, so even granting the magic that God apparently has, the flood is just way over the top.

Basically if God hadn't wiped out the earth, there would have been a total contamination of the bloodlines due to the Watchers having crossed with the daughters of men which would have prevented the coming of the messiah.

Why would the coming of the messiah have been prevented? Why was the messiah necessary? What are the watchers? How is their bloodline crossing with the daughters of men a corruption?

Noah and his household were 'pure in their generations', ie of uncorrupted blood line.

What bloodline was uncorrupted? Why was that bloodline corruptible? What does it mean to corrupt a bloodline?

Now it is just as relevant to us today as then. The righteous few will be saved and all the wicked and their offspring will be destroyed.

Why the offspring of the wicked and not just the wicked? This seems like more gratuitous and unnecessary violence.

1) The flood didn't decimate, it destroyed. To decimate is to destroy 1/10th.

That is one minor definition of the word "decimate". The word "decimate" is more commonly used to mean, "Kill, destroy, or remove a large percentage or part of."

2) The Watchers (gregori) are referenced several times in scripture but the full story is from the Book of Enoch. Jude directly quoted from the book of Enoch right after he talked about the angels that left their estate in heaven and were imprisoned for it. The Watchers were the 'ben Elohyim','sons of God' that impregnated daughters of men and caused great problems on the earth (Gen 6). II Pet 2:4 is also a reference to this story out of Enoch. The Greeks called these demi-gods, the offspring of the Watchers, the Titans and they caused tremendous problems on the earth.

Why were they capable of creating offspring with women? Why was the bloodline corruptible?

3) The messiah has to be of pure human descent but the gene pool had been polluted by angelic beings crossing with mankind.

Why? Why did God make it so that the angelic beings could cross bloodline's with the humans? How did the angels cross bloodlines with the humans? The Biblical angel's don't seem to have a penis and have not got a similar morphology to the humans, what would the offspring look like? I don't think sex was even possible between humans and angels let alone genetic mixing. In the same way humans cannot be impregnated by horses and various other animals, I doubt the biblical angels could impregnate women. It also doesn't make sense for God to create a system where that could occur while he despised the actual union and the offspring.

If the Messiah had been from that polluted bloodline, it would have justified the actions of the Watchers as being necessary to bring about the messiah. All that carried that polluted bloodline had to be destroyed.

Why was pollution of the bloodline possible in the first place? Why did God create a system that had such a possibility if he despised that very possibility?

4) An example of a post flood corrupted bloodline is the Canaanite bloodline.

Could you support this with some evidence? Even Biblical evidence, where is it said that their bloodline was corrupted by the Elohyim?

It is the reason that there were giants in that bloodline

Were there giants amongst the Canaanites?

and why Yah ordered the total destruction of them, men, women, children and even their animals.

The Bible gives a different reason for their destruction. God found their actions, rituals and beliefs detestable.

This was due to Nephilim corruption after the flood by the four angels that are bound at the Euphrates. These four angels is where the legends of the Greek gods came from and the source of the ancient paganism that spread from Babel.

You might need to support this with actual evidence.

5) The tares (seed sowed by Satan into the earth) will be destroyed in the next global destruction by fire.

Why did God fail in his first attempted destruction?

[Yahu]

2) The Watchers (gregori) are referenced several times in scripture but the full story is from the Book of Enoch. Jude directly quoted from the book of Enoch right after he talked about the angels that left their estate in heaven and were imprisoned for it. The Watchers were the 'ben Elohyim','sons of God' that impregnated daughters of men and caused great problems on the earth (Gen 6). II Pet 2:4 is also a reference to this story out of Enoch. The Greeks called these demi-gods, the offspring of the Watchers, the Titans and they caused tremendous problems on the earth.

Why were they capable of creating offspring with women? Why was the bloodline corruptible?

3) The messiah has to be of pure human descent but the gene pool had been polluted by angelic beings crossing with mankind.

Why? Why did God make it so that the angelic beings could cross bloodline's with the humans? How did the angels cross bloodlines with the humans? The Biblical angel's don't seem to have a penis and have not got a similar morphology to the humans, what would the offspring look like? I don't think sex was even possible between humans and angels let alone genetic mixing. In the same way humans cannot be impregnated by horses and various other animals, I doubt the biblical angels could impregnate women. It also doesn't make sense for God to create a system where that could occur while he despised the actual union and the offspring.

If the Messiah had been from that polluted bloodline, it would have justified the actions of the Watchers as being necessary to bring about the messiah. All that carried that polluted bloodline had to be destroyed.

Why was pollution of the bloodline possible in the first place? Why did God create a system that had such a possibility if he despised that very possibility?

4) An example of a post flood corrupted bloodline is the Canaanite bloodline.

Could you support this with some evidence? Even Biblical evidence, where is it said that their bloodline was corrupted by the Elohyim?

It is the reason that there were giants in that bloodline

Were there giants amongst the Canaanites?

and why Yah ordered the total destruction of them, men, women, children and even their animals.

The Bible gives a different reason for their destruction. God found their actions, rituals and beliefs detestable.

This was due to Nephilim corruption after the flood by the four angels that are bound at the Euphrates. These four angels is where the legends of the Greek gods came from and the source of the ancient paganism that spread from Babel.

You might need to support this with actual evidence.

5) The tares (seed sowed by Satan into the earth) will be destroyed in the next global destruction by fire.

Why did God fail in his first attempted destruction?

It would literally take me a book to present the evidence. I have considered writing a book on the topic and the ancient paganism. It would require knowledge of Hebrew and in some cases paleo-hebrew and other ancient languages.

Scripture says we need to lay precept upon precept, line upon line. You have to have a solid foundation to build upon. My first question is have you even read the Book of Enoch? Without understanding of the ancient view of these events it is pointless to present things that view thing from the perspective of the times.

Yes I know many still disregard Enoch because it isn't canon but the reasons to prevent it from being canon have been disproved when pre-christ copies were found in an earlier language with the Dead Sea scrolls. Even a direct quote of Enoch Book 1 chapter 1 is presented in Jude.

An understanding of Genesis 6 as it relates to the stories in Enoch clarify many things. Moses even said that the events that took place both before the flood AND AFTER. Another thing to understand is much of modern day doctrine comes out of medieval literature as opposed to actual scripture. A good example of this is the influences of Milton's 'Paradise Lost' on modern doctrines and the twisting of scriptures to conform to a preconceived view by those that have no background in the ancient paganism.

The entire concept of who and what Lucifer is/was is shaped by that literature instead of the views of the actual writers of scripture. If Lucifer is 'son of the Morning' and you don't know that 'the Morning', ie Shachar is an ancient deity referenced in Phoenician religious texts how can you understand the passage? Then you have to cross reference passages like Job 38 with those pagan writings to see that Shachar was an angle that Yah appointed to separate out the wicked.

Also a very indepth understanding of the ancient paganism of biblical days of the Sumerians, Phoenicians, Babylonians, Syrians, Greeks, Egyptians ... is needed to understand many scriptural references. An example is many of the references in the book of Job by Job's friends are references to their pagan gods. If you rely on an English translation, you totally miss that Job's friends don't even used the same Hebrew words all translated as 'God'. For example Eliphaz is preaching pure 'sun god' worship to Job that is nearly straight out of the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi. Eliphaz declares that 'god traverses the heavens and can't see through dark clouds'. He is a sun god worshiper.

An example of clues that are entirely missed by most bible students is the reference to the 'fields of Zophim' in the story of Balaam. It was one of the pagan places of worship to the pagan deities that Balak took Balaam to curse the children of Israel. If you don't know that Zophim is a Hebrew reference to Watchers and the association of the Watchers in the ancient paganism, the reference is totally overlooked. If you are not familiar with the term Watcher from Enoch, it is totally missed as well as the references to Watchers in the dream sequence in Daniel.

So my point is that without the background to lay out the evidence, it is kind of pointless to do so within the constraints of this board. My evidence equating Lucifer with the ancient pagan sun god is about a 65 page word document that covers the relevant scriptures cross references with other ancient works from pagan religions to understand the worldview of the time of the writers. It also needs my commentary on the paganism of Job's friends.

The ancient paganism spread from Babel at the time of the Tower of Babel and split the pagan deities worshiped at the time into names and titles of many different languages. A biblical study of EVERY pagan deity mentioned in the bible is required to understand how many of them are the same deity listed under multiple names and the meaning of each of those names in the root language. If your interested in some of that, a very flawed source is the book 'The Two Babylons' by Hysop though much of his research is way out of date since it was written over 100 years ago or so.

To briefly answer your last question of 'Why did God fail in his first attempted destruction?' Well He didn't. The flood did wipe out all the corruption of the Watchers and their children. The rebellious angels were imprisoned and the spirits of their dead offspring were assigned as demonic principalities.

There was a 2nd set of 4 angles that disobeyed Yah AFTER the flood that re-instigated the same corruption on a smaller scale. These four were the high level angels that had previously guarded Eden. It was generally these beings and their offspring that were worshiped in the ancient paganism and was conducted via witchcraft in control of the spirits of the previous dead nephilim. This is the paganism that was introduced at Babel. Nimrod was of Nephilim descent on his mother's side hence the reason he was a 'mighty man'. At the Tower of Babel event, again the angels that had children were imprisoned leaving only their children behind which took control over the divisions in the spiritual realms.

Now on a last note. I knew a woman that was formerly a candidate as the next worldwide high priestess of one of the two primary goddesses of witchcraft. She later got out of it after a conflict with me, repented and got saved. She filled me in on what was taught only to high level high priestesses of that ancient pagan religion. So some of that knowledge I have NO proof for because it was secret to her mystery religion but have seen collaborating evidence to support exactly what I learned. This girl had been personally visited and train in witchcraft by direct visitations of her goddess from the time she was 14. I knew her in her mid 20's. That goddess was a daughter of one of the four angels bound in the Euphrates who was born shortly after the flood. She was the goddess Ashtoreth, the mother of both Nimrod and Sidon. It was that revelation that got me studying this topic since 1988 and all the pieces fit. So I hope you understand the near impossibility of presenting all my evidence.

If your not ready for 'strong meat', stick with milk. The deeper mysteries require years of study just to lay the foundations. Very few would put forth the study required but I had a motivating reason to learn due to my conflict with that high priestess of an ancient goddess. I nearly died in that conflict and did lose my wife.

If your interested in that conflict. I am also writing it as a trilogy entitled 'Battling Jezebel' as a story about Christianity verses paganism and witchcraft. Some of what I learned is presented in that trilogy.

[Filthy Tugboat]

2) The Watchers (gregori) are referenced several times in scripture but the full story is from the Book of Enoch. Jude directly quoted from the book of Enoch right after he talked about the angels that left their estate in heaven and were imprisoned for it. The Watchers were the 'ben Elohyim','sons of God' that impregnated daughters of men and caused great problems on the earth (Gen 6). II Pet 2:4 is also a reference to this story out of Enoch. The Greeks called these demi-gods, the offspring of the Watchers, the Titans and they caused tremendous problems on the earth.

Why were they capable of creating offspring with women? Why was the bloodline corruptible?

3) The messiah has to be of pure human descent but the gene pool had been polluted by angelic beings crossing with mankind.

Why? Why did God make it so that the angelic beings could cross bloodline's with the humans? How did the angels cross bloodlines with the humans? The Biblical angel's don't seem to have a penis and have not got a similar morphology to the humans, what would the offspring look like? I don't think sex was even possible between humans and angels let alone genetic mixing. In the same way humans cannot be impregnated by horses and various other animals, I doubt the biblical angels could impregnate women. It also doesn't make sense for God to create a system where that could occur while he despised the actual union and the offspring.

If the Messiah had been from that polluted bloodline, it would have justified the actions of the Watchers as being necessary to bring about the messiah. All that carried that polluted bloodline had to be destroyed.

Why was pollution of the bloodline possible in the first place? Why did God create a system that had such a possibility if he despised that very possibility?

4) An example of a post flood corrupted bloodline is the Canaanite bloodline.

Could you support this with some evidence? Even Biblical evidence, where is it said that their bloodline was corrupted by the Elohyim?

It is the reason that there were giants in that bloodline

Were there giants amongst the Canaanites?

and why Yah ordered the total destruction of them, men, women, children and even their animals.

The Bible gives a different reason for their destruction. God found their actions, rituals and beliefs detestable.

This was due to Nephilim corruption after the flood by the four angels that are bound at the Euphrates. These four angels is where the legends of the Greek gods came from and the source of the ancient paganism that spread from Babel.

You might need to support this with actual evidence.

5) The tares (seed sowed by Satan into the earth) will be destroyed in the next global destruction by fire.

Why did God fail in his first attempted destruction?

It would literally take me a book to present the evidence. I have considered writing a book on the topic and the ancient paganism. It would require knowledge of Hebrew and in some cases paleo-hebrew and other ancient languages.

Scripture says we need to lay precept upon precept, line upon line. You have to have a solid foundation to build upon. My first question is have you even read the Book of Enoch? Without understanding of the ancient view of these events it is pointless to present things that view thing from the perspective of the times.

Yes I know many still disregard Enoch because it isn't canon but the reasons to prevent it from being canon have been disproved when pre-christ copies were found in an earlier language with the Dead Sea scrolls. Even a direct quote of Enoch Book 1 chapter 1 is presented in Jude.

An understanding of Genesis 6 as it relates to the stories in Enoch clarify many things. Moses even said that the events that took place both before the flood AND AFTER. Another thing to understand is much of modern day doctrine comes out of medieval literature as opposed to actual scripture. A good example of this is the influences of Milton's 'Paradise Lost' on modern doctrines and the twisting of scriptures to conform to a preconceived view by those that have no background in the ancient paganism.

The entire concept of who and what Lucifer is/was is shaped by that literature instead of the views of the actual writers of scripture. If Lucifer is 'son of the Morning' and you don't know that 'the Morning', ie Shachar is an ancient deity referenced in Phoenician religious texts how can you understand the passage? Then you have to cross reference passages like Job 38 with those pagan writings to see that Shachar was an angle that Yah appointed to separate out the wicked.

Also a very indepth understanding of the ancient paganism of biblical days of the Sumerians, Phoenicians, Babylonians, Syrians, Greeks, Egyptians ... is needed to understand many scriptural references. An example is many of the references in the book of Job by Job's friends are references to their pagan gods. If you rely on an English translation, you totally miss that Job's friends don't even used the same Hebrew words all translated as 'God'. For example Eliphaz is preaching pure 'sun god' worship to Job that is nearly straight out of the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi. Eliphaz declares that 'god traverses the heavens and can't see through dark clouds'. He is a sun god worshiper.

An example of clues that are entirely missed by most bible students is the reference to the 'fields of Zophim' in the story of Balaam. It was one of the pagan places of worship to the pagan deities that Balak took Balaam to curse the children of Israel. If you don't know that Zophim is a Hebrew reference to Watchers and the association of the Watchers in the ancient paganism, the reference is totally overlooked. If you are not familiar with the term Watcher from Enoch, it is totally missed as well as the references to Watchers in the dream sequence in Daniel.

So my point is that without the background to lay out the evidence, it is kind of pointless to do so within the constraints of this board. My evidence equating Lucifer with the ancient pagan sun god is about a 65 page word document that covers the relevant scriptures cross references with other ancient works from pagan religions to understand the worldview of the time of the writers. It also needs my commentary on the paganism of Job's friends.

The ancient paganism spread from Babel at the time of the Tower of Babel and split the pagan deities worshiped at the time into names and titles of many different languages. A biblical study of EVERY pagan deity mentioned in the bible is required to understand how many of them are the same deity listed under multiple names and the meaning of each of those names in the root language. If your interested in some of that, a very flawed source is the book 'The Two Babylons' by Hysop though much of his research is way out of date since it was written over 100 years ago or so.

To briefly answer your last question of 'Why did God fail in his first attempted destruction?' Well He didn't. The flood did wipe out all the corruption of the Watchers and their children. The rebellious angels were imprisoned and the spirits of their dead offspring were assigned as demonic principalities.

There was a 2nd set of 4 angles that disobeyed Yah AFTER the flood that re-instigated the same corruption on a smaller scale. These four were the high level angels that had previously guarded Eden. It was generally these beings and their offspring that were worshiped in the ancient paganism and was conducted via witchcraft in control of the spirits of the previous dead nephilim. This is the paganism that was introduced at Babel. Nimrod was of Nephilim descent on his mother's side hence the reason he was a 'mighty man'. At the Tower of Babel event, again the angels that had children were imprisoned leaving only their children behind which took control over the divisions in the spiritual realms.

Now on a last note. I knew a woman that was formerly a candidate as the next worldwide high priestess of one of the two primary goddesses of witchcraft. She later got out of it after a conflict with me, repented and got saved. She filled me in on what was taught only to high level high priestesses of that ancient pagan religion. So some of that knowledge I have NO proof for because it was secret to her mystery religion but have seen collaborating evidence to support exactly what I learned. This girl had been personally visited and train in witchcraft by direct visitations of her goddess from the time she was 14. I knew her in her mid 20's. That goddess was a daughter of one of the four angels bound in the Euphrates who was born shortly after the flood. She was the goddess Ashtoreth, the mother of both Nimrod and Sidon. It was that revelation that got me studying this topic since 1988 and all the pieces fit. So I hope you understand the near impossibility of presenting all my evidence.

If your not ready for 'strong meat', stick with milk. The deeper mysteries require years of study just to lay the foundations. Very few would put forth the study required but I had a motivating reason to learn due to my conflict with that high priestess of an ancient goddess. I nearly died in that conflict and did lose my wife.

If your interested in that conflict. I am also writing it as a trilogy entitled 'Battling Jezebel' as a story about Christianity verses paganism and witchcraft. Some of what I learned is presented in that trilogy.

This is sounding a little far fetched, a bit like a fairy tale, I see no reason to take the claims you've made seriously. Claims like; Angels had sex with and impregnated women, God despised the union and their offspring, there was a global flood, there will be another event of global destruction, there is such a thing as a "corrupted bloodline", that a bloodline is "corruptible". There are probably more claims still awaiting support and until these are directly answered I can't take them seriously.

[Yahu]

This is sounding a little far fetched, a bit like a fairy tale, I see no reason to take the claims you've made seriously. Claims like; Angels had sex with and impregnated women, God despised the union and their offspring, there was a global flood, there will be another event of global destruction, there is such a thing as a "corrupted bloodline", that a bloodline is "corruptible". There are probably more claims still awaiting support and until these are directly answered I can't take them seriously.

Well the part about angels having children is directly out of Genesis as is the global flood. Either you actually believe the bible as the word of God or you don't.

If you don't, there is no point in even continuing the conversation because I take it as direct truth as the basis of all fact. Granted it has to be in the original Hebrew. There are many translation errors in most English translations. Hebrew requires you to know the context to translate it properly and if the translators don't understand what is being talked about, they can't translate it accurately.

A good example of this is Isa 57:9. Most translations mistranslate a pagan deity name as the word 'king'. The passage is clearly talking about the ancient paganism of the Baalim worship but some Rabbi misvowel pointed Molech as Melek. The proper name Molech means 'shameful king' but both words were spelled the same in the original Hebrew. Those vowel points were not put in until many centuries after the original text was written. Most translations fail to catch the error. Some translations like the Amplified have the alternate translation in [brackets].

I don't see any reason to dispute the flood or the fact that angels can take physical form. The funny thing is, the high priestess I knew didn't believe in the flood either until her goddess told her it actually happened just like it was presented in scripture but a major effort of the demonic realm has been in discrediting the bible and causing mistranslations and such. The entire point is to get everyone to doubt it as truth so the flood has been one of the major points of their efforts.

If you don't believe in the validity of God's Word, then that is between you and God so there is no point in debating any scriptural point on this board.

[Filthy Tugboat]

This is sounding a little far fetched, a bit like a fairy tale, I see no reason to take the claims you've made seriously. Claims like; Angels had sex with and impregnated women, God despised the union and their offspring, there was a global flood, there will be another event of global destruction, there is such a thing as a "corrupted bloodline", that a bloodline is "corruptible". There are probably more claims still awaiting support and until these are directly answered I can't take them seriously.

Well the part about angels having children is directly out of Genesis as is the global flood. Either you actually believe the bible as the word of God or you don't.

I do not, concerning the flood, most people do not, a lot of people who seriously consider what Genesis says regarding the flood, believer's included, disregard it. The actual event described in Genesis propose a ridiculous event where the rain itself would kill the people on the boat, it would be coming down like a waterfall in order to successfully cover the globe in 40 days, the parameters of the boat are insufficient to carry as many animals as it needs to carry and that is being as generous as possible in using the word "kind" over the word "species". All the plants would have died, a vast majority of the sea life would have died. Basically, in order to pretend that a global flood occurred, you would have to contend that God kept everything magically alive that he wanted to keep alive and preserved. There are so many more efficient, more effective ways of achieving what was set out to achieve, a global flood was ridiculously unnecessary.

If you don't, there is no point in even continuing the conversation because I take it as direct truth as the basis of all fact.

Good for you, why would that end the discussion though?

Granted it has to be in the original Hebrew. There are many translation errors in most English translations. Hebrew requires you to know the context to translate it properly and if the translators don't understand what is being talked about, they can't translate it accurately.

Why not, English is a far more extensive language than Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, why is translation impossible?

A good example of this is Isa 57:9. Most translations mistranslate a pagan deity name as the word 'king'. The passage is clearly talking about the ancient paganism of the Baalim worship but some Rabbi misvowel pointed Molech as Melek. The proper name Molech means 'shameful king' but both words were spelled the same in the original Hebrew. Those vowel points were not put in until many centuries after the original text was written. Most translations fail to catch the error. Some translations like the Amplified have the alternate translation in [brackets].

OK.

I don't see any reason to dispute the flood

There are many, I can list at least 25 if you'd like. It is an impossible event without magic, and with magic it is gratuitous, unnecessary and subsequently illogical.

or the fact that angels can take physical form.

All descriptions of angels in the Bible describe things that look nothing like humans. One of them is two intertwined rings of fire. How the hell is a girl gonna have sex with that? Others have wings and are covered head to toe in eyes? Painted descriptions of Angels as humans with wings are not Biblical, they are an artistic creation that looks pretty. What angel depicted in the Bible would be able to produce offspring with women?

The funny thing is, the high priestess I knew didn't believe in the flood either until her goddess told her it actually happened just like it was presented in scripture but a major effort of the demonic realm has been in discrediting the bible and causing mistranslations and such. The entire point is to get everyone to doubt it as truth so the flood has been one of the major points of their efforts.

I doubt the truth of these events, maybe not you talking to a high priestess of a cult, but the rest of it.

If you don't believe in the validity of God's Word,

I don't believe in the validity of the Bible, I don't know anything about "God's Word".

then that is between you and God

Is it?

so there is no point in debating any scriptural point on this board.

Why not?

[Goat]

This is sounding a little far fetched, a bit like a fairy tale, I see no reason to take the claims you've made seriously. Claims like; Angels had sex with and impregnated women, God despised the union and their offspring, there was a global flood, there will be another event of global destruction, there is such a thing as a "corrupted bloodline", that a bloodline is "corruptible". There are probably more claims still awaiting support and until these are directly answered I can't take them seriously.

Well the part about angels having children is directly out of Genesis as is the global flood. Either you actually believe the bible as the word of God or you don't.

If you don't, there is no point in even continuing the conversation because I take it as direct truth as the basis of all fact. Granted it has to be in the original Hebrew. There are many translation errors in most English translations. Hebrew requires you to know the context to translate it properly and if the translators don't understand what is being talked about, they can't translate it accurately.

A good example of this is Isa 57:9. Most translations mistranslate a pagan deity name as the word 'king'. The passage is clearly talking about the ancient paganism of the Baalim worship but some Rabbi misvowel pointed Molech as Melek. The proper name Molech means 'shameful king' but both words were spelled the same in the original Hebrew. Those vowel points were not put in until many centuries after the original text was written. Most translations fail to catch the error. Some translations like the Amplified have the alternate translation in [brackets].

I don't see any reason to dispute the flood or the fact that angels can take physical form. The funny thing is, the high priestess I knew didn't believe in the flood either until her goddess told her it actually happened just like it was presented in scripture but a major effort of the demonic realm has been in discrediting the bible and causing mistranslations and such. The entire point is to get everyone to doubt it as truth so the flood has been one of the major points of their efforts.

If you don't believe in the validity of God's Word, then that is between you and God so there is no point in debating any scriptural point on this board.

Well, the reason to dispute eh flood is evidence there was no world wide flood, and as for angels, there is the strong lack of evidence that it is anything more than a story.

And, the Jewish idea of 'Word of God' ... is not "THE WORD FROM GOD", but the 'THE WORD ABOUT GOD"

And I would love to see you back up your claims for the translation of Isa. 57 too.

[Yahu]

This is sounding a little far fetched, a bit like a fairy tale, I see no reason to take the claims you've made seriously. Claims like; Angels had sex with and impregnated women, God despised the union and their offspring, there was a global flood, there will be another event of global destruction, there is such a thing as a "corrupted bloodline", that a bloodline is "corruptible". There are probably more claims still awaiting support and until these are directly answered I can't take them seriously.

Well the part about angels having children is directly out of Genesis as is the global flood. Either you actually believe the bible as the word of God or you don't.

If you don't, there is no point in even continuing the conversation because I take it as direct truth as the basis of all fact. Granted it has to be in the original Hebrew. There are many translation errors in most English translations. Hebrew requires you to know the context to translate it properly and if the translators don't understand what is being talked about, they can't translate it accurately.

A good example of this is Isa 57:9. Most translations mistranslate a pagan deity name as the word 'king'. The passage is clearly talking about the ancient paganism of the Baalim worship but some Rabbi misvowel pointed Molech as Melek. The proper name Molech means 'shameful king' but both words were spelled the same in the original Hebrew. Those vowel points were not put in until many centuries after the original text was written. Most translations fail to catch the error. Some translations like the Amplified have the alternate translation in [brackets].

I don't see any reason to dispute the flood or the fact that angels can take physical form. The funny thing is, the high priestess I knew didn't believe in the flood either until her goddess told her it actually happened just like it was presented in scripture but a major effort of the demonic realm has been in discrediting the bible and causing mistranslations and such. The entire point is to get everyone to doubt it as truth so the flood has been one of the major points of their efforts.

If you don't believe in the validity of God's Word, then that is between you and God so there is no point in debating any scriptural point on this board.

Well, the reason to dispute eh flood is evidence there was no world wide flood, and as for angels, there is the strong lack of evidence that it is anything more than a story.

And, the Jewish idea of 'Word of God' ... is not "THE WORD FROM GOD", but the 'THE WORD ABOUT GOD"

And I would love to see you back up your claims for the translation of Isa. 57 too.

Both my parents are degreed geologists. They don't have any problem with seeing evidence of the flood in the geological record. Granted Im an Electrical Engineer so that outside my area of expertise to dispute. The earth has been through major upheavals. I recommend the books by Emanuel Velokovski on the possible causes and such. My mother is also an author on the physical judgments presented in Revelation. She has published 'Righty Dividing the Book of Revelation' as well as the Armageddon Trilogy (jebecker.com). So how Yah uses natural events to bring about His judgement is a familiar theme to me.

As for Isa 57. I don't have any problem debating that passage.

Isa 57:1 the righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from before the evil.
2 he entereth into peace: they rest in their beds, each one that hath walked in his uprightness.
3 but draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the harlot. (this is a reference to the children of Ashtoreth)
4 against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom do ye make a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
5 inflaming yourselves with idols (trees, Asherah Poles) under every green tree (in the Groves of Baalim Worship), slaying the children in the valleys (the valley below the grove outside Jerusalem was the valley of Hinnom, the place of passing the children through the fires to Molech) under the clefts of the rocks (a reference to the physical locate as a symbol of Asherah)?
6 among the smooth stones (symbol of Ashtoreth as the female sex organ, see Jer 2) of the torrent is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured out a drink-offering (offering sacrifices to these representations of the gods/goddesses), thou hast offered an oblation. shall I be comforted myself as to these things?
7 upon a lofty and high mountain (pagan high place of worship) hast thou set thy bed (this worship was sexual based worship): even thither didst thou go up to offer sacrifice.
8 behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance (household images of the pagan gods): for apart from me, thou hast uncovered thyself, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and hast made agreement with them; thou lovedst their bed, thou sawest their nakedness. (again a reference to the sexual nature of the pagan worship)
9 and thou wentest to the king (Molech) with ointment, and didst multiply thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers afar off, and didst debase thyself unto Sheol.

Jeremiah 2 also has a reference to the tree (asherah pole) as the male fertility symbol. An Asherah Pole was a tree stump that was left standing and carved as a phallic symbol as a symbol of Baal ( Specifically Baal-peor). The shaft could also have an image of the goddess carved in the shaft. Baal was the divine father while Ashtoreth was the divine mother symbolized by the stone.

Jer 2:19 thine own wickedness chastiseth thee, and thy backslidings reprove thee: know then and see that it is an evil thing and bitter that thou hast forsaken Jehovah thy god, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the lord, Jehovah of hosts.
20 for of old thou hast broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not serve. for upon every high hill (pagan high place of worship), and under every green tree (grove of pagan worship), thou bowest down, playing the harlot (sexual activity of the Baalim worship).
21 and I, —I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed; how then art thou turned into the degenerate shoots of a strange vine unto me?
22 for though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much potash, thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the lord Jehovah.
23 how sayest thou, I am not defiled, I have not gone after the Baals? (direct reference that this is about Baalim worship) see thy way in the valley (were the children were sacrificed), acknowledge what thou hast done—a swift dromedary traversing her ways!
24 —a wild ass, used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind in her desire! in her ardour, who shall turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her.
25 withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst. but thou saidst, there is no hope; no, for I love strangers, and after them will I go. (another reference to the sexual nature of this worship)
26 as a thief is ashamed when he is found, so shall the house of Israel be ashamed—they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets—
27 saying to a stock (tree, Asherah Pole), thou art my father (Baal, the divine father); and to a stone, thou hast brought me forth (Ashtoreth, the divine Mother); for they have turned the back unto me, and not the face; and in the time of their trouble they will say, arise, and save us!
28 where then are thy gods that thou hast made for thyself? (this is clearly a passage about the idolatry of the Baalim worship) let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for as the number of thy cities, are thy gods, O Judah.


The Groves were a place of partying. There was feasting, drinking, singing, dancing and public sex acts with the ritual prostitutes as well as public sex acts with the Asherah Poles. The unwanted children conceived were offered as a sacrifice to Molech in the valley below the Grove. The Grove was on the top of the hill. The Trees in the grove were sacrid to one god. The location was chosen to represent Asherah. It required two ridges to butt into a higher ridge top with a rift valley between. The valley and the mound above were planted in trees. It was a representation of the abdomine of Asherah (mother earth) with the trees representing her pubic hair. The sacred pool (Serpent Pool) was in the valley between her legs (the ridges) and represented her vaginal opening. This is were the children were sacrificed to Molech. Mother Earth, Father sky, the 'shameful king', the 'queen of heaven, and the 'lord' were members of the Baalim (ie plural for Baal which just means 'lord).

The Groves were basically the local night club, whore house and local abortion clinic all wrapped up in one location with all the activities in dedication to the pagan gods/goddesses. Ashtoreth, Asherah, Baal and Molech are also the Canaanite names of the four winds, the 4 primary principalities of hell. There worship was also riddled in witchcraft. Isa 57:9 is a direct reference to that ritual witchcraft.

Isa 57:9 and thou wentest to the king (Molech) with ointment, and didst multiply thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers afar off, and didst debase thyself unto Sheol.

This passage is about offering sacrifices and prayer to the image of Molech. Early in the passage, the offering of child sacrifices was already mentioned being in the valley below. The rising incense smoke was a representation of prayers acceding. The 'messengers' sent is a reference to summoned demonic spirits being sent on assignment via spells and curses. Remember that the Hebrew word Angel also means 'messenger' but a divine messenger. Note that this practice is equated with debasing thyself unto Sheol (realm of the dead, ie hell). Molech worship is direct Satanic worship involving witchcraft and human sacrifice of children.

I can email you a picture of the location of the valley of Himmon and the location of where the Grove was located outside Jerusalem. Later in time when the paganism was cast down, the grove was cut down. The location of the alter/temple of Baal was turned into a public toilet. The valley of Himmon was renamed Gehenna, used as a trash dump and used to symbolize Hell itself were all the trash of the city was burned and the sewage runoff of the public Toilet above.

If the translators didn't understand that the pagan Grove was directly above the valley of Hinnom where Molech was worshipped and didn't understand all the references to the pagan worship it is easy to see how they misvowel pointed the Hebrew 'MLK' as 'king' instead of Molech. Both are spelled MLK but one is vowel pointed with the 'noun' vowel pattern while the other is pointed with the 'shame' vowel pattern. Several translations of the Bible do translate this as Molech. Even the Amplified has 'king [or Molech]' in this passage.

If you don't understand the pagan references and activities, how can you understand what the passage is even talking about? During the time of the prophets, there was rampant paganism among the people of Israel due to failure to exterminate the Canaanites.

References like these are all throughout the books of the prophets. Generally Yah sent the prophets to condemn the pagan practices that the people fell into and warn them of the consequences of doing so. Most English translations try to hide or mask all the sexual references out of a sense of puritanism.

Here is another example of the pagan rock/stone and the worship of this paganism is condemned.

Det 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

[Logomachist]

Yahu do you have any scholarly sources (suitable for the general public) do back up your interpretations? I know you mentioned "The Two Babylons" but your said that source was outdated and flawed. I'd be looking for something more informed by modern archaeology and secular scholarship.

[Yahu]

Yahu do you have any scholarly sources (suitable for the general public) do back up your interpretations? I know you mentioned "The Two Babylons" but your said that source was outdated and flawed. I'd be looking for something more informed by modern archaeology and secular scholarship.

I'm afraid I pieced it together from many sources both ancient and modern. For example, Velikovsky's works has a lot of information about the ancient paganism but he focuses on how the mythologies may be celestial interaction of the planets that where used to symbolize those deities. Yes I know Velikovsky's writings are controversial but his research is impressive and provides many clues but many of his assumptions are wrong IMO.

The Two Babylons has many interesting facts but the author equates everything back to Nimrod. He fails to see there are four primary players. He condenses most of the references down to a single male and female counterpart. He equates Nimrod as the pagan sun god but in actuality it was his uncle, the brother of his Nephilim mother.

Some of the works I used can be found on Google Books like 'Yahweh and His Asherah'. One thing that really caught my attention out of that book was the debate of why Asherah has a major epitaph of 'she who treads upon the sea' when she has nothing to do with a sea deity but as an earth goddess. The epitaph made perfect sense to me because I see Asherah as a Canaanite name of Na'amah, the wife of Noah and see it as a reference to her surviving the flood upon the ark. She was worshiped as the great mother of all the nations and the gods. She was also the oldest woman alive during her life after the flood.

Now you can also use sources like wikipedia (I know not a very good source) but things like the consorts of Anu where Nammu/Namma and Ki (earth). Earth was just a nickname of Na'amah. They are just two names/titles of the same individual while wikipedia presents them as two separate individuals. Na'amah was nicknamed 'earth' because Noah was commanded to raise up seed 'in the earth' and she was his wife. Now Eve before she was named was Adamah, the feminine form of Adam. Adamah means 'land'. The concept of associating the primary female progenitor with land/earth goes clear back to Eve. Na'amah became to new female progenitor and was nicknamed 'erets', ie earth.

Many of the clues are hidden in the Hebrew meanings of names. A good study is to go through the book of Joshua and translate all the Canaanite place names into the name meanings. Most of the place names are references to the pagan deities or their attributes or titles. You will find name meanings of the gods like 'children of lightning', 'god who sows his seed', 'temple of the sun', ... For example the town 'BethAnath' means 'house/temple of Anath' a Canaanite name for one of their goddesses. She was Neith in Egypt and Athena in Greece. It makes a big difference in reading scripture when you realize 'BethAnath' means 'temple of Athena' or 'BethShemesh' means 'temple of Apollo'.

Another source of information is people's name meanings. It is an interesting study to see the name meanings of the supporters of Korah in the rebellion against Moses. Each of the individuals supporting Korah had pagan deity references in their names.

It also helps to understand many of the Hebrew symbols. For example 'waters' is often a symbol of people. This is clearly demonstrated in Rev where the Whore is over many waters that are peoples, nations and tongues. The 'sea' is often used as a collection of 'bitter waters'.

There are also clues when you go back into the paleo-hebrew pictographs for word meanings. A basic place to start for that is 'Hebrew Word Pictures' by Dr Frank Seekins. A good example is the word for KING is the 'waters, shepherd staff, open hand' or the hand on the staff over the waters, ie 'he who leads the waters'. This is also seen in the actions of Moses parting the Red Sea.

I haven't found any source that puts all the pieces together. It is like putting together a puzzle when many different puzzles are mixed together. You get a piece here and one there but need the Holy Spirit's guidance to put the correct pieces together while throwing out the ones that don't belong. You need a lot of external sources to understand more obscure scriptures.

I didn't understand the sexual references in the ancient paganism presented in scripture until I ran across the modern practices of those same religions. I found found that once you understand the context it greatly helps in understanding what is presented in scripture. Some times you have to go back to the root Hebrew because the translators didn't understand the context and either mistranslated or intentionally hid sexual references.

So is there any single work that could present all my findings? Not to my knowledge. Scripture says to 'study to show yourself approved'. It would require deep study to put together any of the mysteries. They are not clearly presented hence the reason they are mysteries.

Many of the ancient texts are available on the internet. The Sacred Texts website is a good source. I would suggests things like the 'Baal Cycle', 'Code of Hammurabi' and things like that. There are even clues in the Egyptian 'Book of the Dead'. In the book of Job, Eliphaz presents his concept of God right out of the Babylonian sun god worship presented in the 'Code of Hammurabi'. If you don't know the pagan doctrines, how can you see the error in what Job's friends say that is wrong? They are trying to get Job to bow down the Satan as god to stop the attacks. This is hard to see in the English translations because most of the references to 'God' should be 'god/gods'. Job's friends even use different Hebrew words for god.