Homosexuality: A chosen trait, or gentetically aquired?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This question is a major underlying factor of the general homosexual debate, the answer of which can narrow the scope in questioning its morality.



Are people born gay, or do they choose to be?
Can someone be blamed for their sexual orientation, or is it subject to factors we have no control over?

[Wyvern]

desire for sex is pretty much hardwired into all creatures.

Yeah but it doesn't necessarily get very far. All it is is a silly program made to con you into reproducing that bosses you around and I take it that most people at some point in their lives are able to push it out if they want to like getting rid of so many pop-up ads.

Like it or not but sex is not generally considered an annoyance as pop ups are. And considering how the largest group of people in Florida getting STD's now are senior citizens(Leno even made a joke about it), just because reproduction is no longer possible does not mean the sexual urges go away and considering the better health of seniors it can very well be seen as healthy behavior. People can choose to be celibate, but just because the physical act is negated does not mean that the sexuality is as well.

Besides, it is their choice. I'm not arguing that their choices should be made for them. just that they have one.

If you are advocating that EVERYONE should choose to be celibate that is one thing, however if you are saying that homosexuals ONLY should choose celibacy then you are simply being biased.

[scorpia]

Apparently you are a little confused as to the functioning of an open debate. Allow me to provide a few guidelines.

First of all, the word 'debate' as applied to our given situation, means thus:

a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal

My proposal is that sexual orientation (as with every other gene derived trait) cannot be "chosen" against, and is firmly embedded into our being unless otherwise nullified by a certain contradicting environmental condition. I have provided numerous proven scientific reasons for this position, going over each in great detail.

Your counterargument: "no, your wrong".

You see, in order for any form of fruitful debate to commence, supportive reasoning must be provided in order to verify your statements.

In fact, there is even a forum rule regarding this:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

I shall await your carefully thought out scientific evidence in support of your assertions. Then (and only then) may I logically resume discussion.

Well you could have read above intead of waiting for me to post, I had already posted;

and I take it that most people at some point in their lives are able to push it out if they want to like getting rid of so many pop-up ads.

To an onlooker a report filed by the American Psycological Association (who probably know quite a bit more than you do in regards to this subject) is much more reliable than your unsupported statements of fact.



The main premise of debate is convince others. Do you honestly think your current rhetoric is going to convince me of anything? I don't need you to remind me what you believe. I need to know why you believe it.

Because I have done it myself. Why don't you try to explain to me why you or anyone else can't, and what goes on in your heads.

Perhaps you could explain exactly how you know what you know, or how it has happened in your life.

Easy. I said no, and aways it goes. I just push it out of my head. Eventually there's less and less to push out. Why would that be so hard to believe? Why can't what I say be considered as proof?

I shall await your carefully thought out scientific evidence in support of your assertions. Then (and only then) may I logically resume discussion.

[sarcasm]Yes, because you're being so convincing for your own end of the argument.[/sarcasm] Why don't YOU back up your assertions. PROVE to ME that it's impossible. You think the articles good, explain it to me then the technicalities to me if you think I'm so stupid. But if this is another "it happened with these five guys therefore in the entire population of Earth it must also happen" thing forget it.

If you are advocating that EVERYONE should choose to be celibate that is one thing, however if you are saying that homosexuals ONLY should choose celibacy then you are simply being biased.

Well I'm obviously not. Go back a page or so and read what I've typed. I'm not bothering to requote myself anymore.

Like it or not but sex is not generally considered an annoyance as pop ups are.

Probably not. This is just me I guess I dunno about hateful but I will admit I am a bit of a control freak (for myself). But I'm not arguing whether or not it's an annoyance or controlling it is right or wrong or who controls who. Just that it's possible.

[Wyvern]

If you are advocating that EVERYONE should choose to be celibate that is one thing, however if you are saying that homosexuals ONLY should choose celibacy then you are simply being biased.

Well I'm obviously not. Go back a page or so and read what I've typed. I'm not bothering to requote myself anymore.

Alrighty so if I understand correctly you are only saying that anyone can choose to not have sex regardless of orientation. Unfortunately choosing to not have sex is not the same as choosing not to have a sexual orientation. Even paraplegiacs, who can't engage in sex still have a sexual orientation

Like it or not but sex is not generally considered an annoyance as pop ups are.

Probably not. This is just me I guess I dunno about hateful but I will admit I am a bit of a control freak (for myself). But I'm not arguing whether or not it's an annoyance or controlling it is right or wrong or who controls who. Just that it's possible.[/quote]
It is relatively easy for most to control their sexual activity, however it is a much different thing to try to control ones sexual orientation. After all one is just a pleasurable activity while the other is part of the core of a persons identity.

[scorpia]

If you are advocating that EVERYONE should choose to be celibate that is one thing, however if you are saying that homosexuals ONLY should choose celibacy then you are simply being biased.

Well I'm obviously not. Go back a page or so and read what I've typed. I'm not bothering to requote myself anymore.

Alrighty so if I understand correctly you are only saying that anyone can choose to not have sex regardless of orientation. Unfortunately choosing to not have sex is not the same as choosing not to have a sexual orientation. Even paraplegiacs, who can't engage in sex still have a sexual orientation

I was talking about people saying I'm biased saying I want all gay people to do this.

As for what else I was saying, I meant that anyone can control their own minds, regardless of orientation.

It is relatively easy for most to control their sexual activity, however it is a much different thing to try to control ones sexual orientation. After all one is just a pleasurable activity while the other is part of the core of a persons identity.

Identies change though.

Okay, let's forget about celibacy then. I'll try another tactic. Just how many sexual identies can there be, and how do they all come about?

[melikio]

As for what else I was saying, I meant that anyone can control their own minds, regardless of orientation.

The degree to which this is actually true, varies. Each person is different, and there are myriad complexities within a given mindset, some which can baffle even mental health professionals.

Some aspects/functions of a person's mind are almost completely autonomous and others are not. In general, the human mind and related behaviors are not necessarily simple things.

It is relatively easy for most to control their sexual activity, however it is a much different thing to try to control ones sexual orientation. After all one is just a pleasurable activity while the other is part of the core of a persons identity.

How many of us know people who have managed to change their sexual-orientation, or have proven they actually sustain/maintain full the same?

Sexual acts can typically be controlled indeed. And there is extra weight in this society for homosexuals to abstain from the acts they would perform, (despite the frequency or serveity of them). That is a social "bias" that needs to be addressed over time; it's not right to demand that homosexuals excellently maintain a level of self-control which relatively few heterosexual people rarely ever seriously consider exercising themselves.

Celibacy? Changing one's (sexual) "identity"? Those aren't topics one hears your average heterosexual person (Christian or not) discussing on a regular basis.

Identies change though.

Sometimes, sometimes not. This is another one in the realm of mental health professionals, which can take years to understand and is hardly an exact science.

Okay, let's forget about celibacy then.

No, don't "forget" about it; it is a viable option for some people; but there are different degrees of effectiveness represented in each person.

I'll try another tactic. Just how many sexual identies can there be, and how do they all come about?

That is a separate thread (a BIG one too). You'd learn more by visiting the APA or WebMD websites. There are literal MOUNDS of studies pertaining to human sexuality, and it's hardly simple stuff.

In light of the complexities involved, my contention hasn't been that "Christians" accept what they view as sinful, but that they learn to better understand what ails human beings period. If I get nothing else from the Bible, it's that people aren't plain, simple or easy to figure out; nor are they particularly good at seeing themselves as they truly are (inside and out).

I think there is a giant set of reasons why the concept of grace should be consciously regarded by Christians. Not to be used as an "excuse" for wrongdoing, but as a reminder of the imperfections we possess as human beings. And that's not to say that the Bible or Christianity themselves are the only way to become more aware of those imperfections; which vary from person to person.

And there is something to be said for dilligence and discipline, and those are things which should be encouraged in people, rather than demanded of others by people.

-Mel-

[Wyvern]

As for what else I was saying, I meant that anyone can control their own minds, regardless of orientation.

Yep, most people are able to control themselves to a greater or lesser extent. It should be noted that a good many people can't or at least because of the individuals wiring it is significantly harder than it would be for the general populace. Addiction is a good example of where it is at times very difficult to control ones urges.

Okay, let's forget about celibacy then. I'll try another tactic. Just how many sexual identies can there be, and how do they all come about?

For normal usage there are only three that people usually identify themselves with, that being homo/bi/hetero. The reality is a bit more complex, sexual identity is more like a spectrum, with people identifying what they are sexually by what they are mostly with the only problems being with bisexuals since they can freely flip from either position until the typical confusion passes and they accept who they are.
How and when sexual identity comes into being is a difficult and by no means completely answered question. One position states that it is a choice pure and simple and those that do not choose to conform to the societal norms are suffering from a mental defect. Another position states that it is purely genetic in nature and thus your sexual identity is set at birth. Yet another position is that there is a genetic component but that the individuals sexual identity is set sometime during early childhood based on environmental factors. A lot of research is being done in this field but unfortunately results are very slow since humans have to be studied as they mature, so I imagine the answer will be up in the air for some time to come.

[scorpia]

Yep, most people are able to control themselves to a greater or lesser extent. It should be noted that a good many people can't or at least because of the individuals wiring it is significantly harder than it would be for the general populace. Addiction is a good example of where it is at times very difficult to control ones urges.

Okay

For normal usage there are only three that people usually identify themselves with, that being homo/bi/hetero. The reality is a bit more complex, sexual identity is more like a spectrum,

Was about to say that there is more than three....... More like a hundred or more, these other hundred proving.......

How and when sexual identity comes into being is a difficult and by no means completely answered question. One position states that it is a choice pure and simple and those that do not choose to conform to the societal norms are suffering from a mental defect. Another position states that it is purely genetic in nature and thus your sexual identity is set at birth. Yet another position is that there is a genetic component but that the individuals sexual identity is set sometime during early childhood based on environmental factors. A lot of research is being done in this field but unfortunately results are very slow since humans have to be studied as they mature, so I imagine the answer will be up in the air for some time to come.

.......That it is the latter (based on environmental factors) which affects the person, not genetics. It isn't exactly pure choice per se as I guess it has to do with conditioning, but it does show that nature is the less of a factor as psychology is. As for choice, I for one don't think that those that don't choose to conform are suffering from a mental defect or anything. (After all what's normal?) It's based off of conditioning which person is unaware of but only after they do become aware of it is it a choice and even then to change it would require some effort.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Well you could have read above intead of waiting for me to post, I had already posted;

and I take it that most people at some point in their lives are able to push it out if they want to like getting rid of so many pop-up ads.

That doesen't tell me much.

In your eyes, simply fighting back an urge constitutes free will over sexual orientation? Anyone can fight back urges (to varying degrees, depending on the person). That does not change a person's nature, however.

If there is a choice involved in sexual orientation, then you or I would be able to willingly become sexually attracted to members of the same sex. I would be able to decide on a sudden whim that I wish to become homosexual, and thereafter magically become stimulated by other guys where there was no stimulation before.

This (except in rare instances of bisexuality) is impossible.

Because I have done it myself. Why don't you try to explain to me why you or anyone else can't, and what goes on in your heads.

Let's consider a particularly downtrodden homosexual (you can probably think of someone who fits this description). He/she comes from a family of strait folk. His/her friends are all strait. However, He/she cannot hide from it any longer- they are inexplicably homosexual. This final dismal realization comes after years of denial, years of attempts at fighting back the unnatural urges. They are ashamed of their condition, and are afraid to come out of the closet or act upon their desires for fear of ridicule. Consequently, they seek therapy. However, like so many like minded individuals before them, any attempt to change their orientation fails. Eventually the person usually comes to terms with his/her condition, and finally comes out of the closet.

There have been thousands of cases just like the one I described (many of which are documented on the APA site I provided). Ashamed homosexuals unable to rid themselves of their urges. You claim to have to ability to fight back your sexual drive. Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated, many others apparently lack this ability.

What is to account for this phemomena? Why, none other than our friend the gene! Embedded somewhere in your psyce is a gene that allows you to experience fluctuating emotions, higher will power over certain traits, or a weak sexual drive. Every single behavioral pattern in humans can be traced back to a genetic counterpart (as has been scientifically demonstrated in every related study). Some of these behaviors are aquired traits, programmed into our chromosomes at some previous point in our lives. Others (somewhere between 30% and 70% based on our current understanding) are congenital, having been ingrained into our genes since birth. Which ever of these the trait of homosexuality happens to be, we may rest assured; there is no conscious choice involved. It is impossible to change one's sexual preferences. Or "choose" a preference, for that matter.

The mind and body work as a highly complex computer system. The surrounding environment dictates a certain situation. Our software (brain) signals the appropriate response, and the hardware (muscles, organs, ect) carry out the function. Concepts such as "Free will" and the "soul", as I believe it, are merely previous explanations of the brain's functioning developed back when there was insufficient scientific knowledge of it's inner workings.

[scorpia]

That doesen't tell me much.

In your eyes, simply fighting back an urge constitutes free will over sexual orientation? Anyone can fight back urges (to varying degrees, depending on the person). That does not change a person's nature, however.

So, if a few questions pop up in your head that argue towards Christianity, and you quickly tell yourself the counter-argument, does that still make you a Christian, because of some fleeting thought?

Anyway, it shows that people are free enough to disobey.

If there is a choice involved in sexual orientation, then you or I would be able to willingly become sexually attracted to members of the same sex. I would be able to decide on a sudden whim that I wish to become homosexual, and thereafter magically become stimulated by other guys where there was no stimulation before.

So what about the times, Eg. when a person is unwillingly attracted to members of the opposite sex? Can't they detach it all so that they aren't attracted so they can get on with life?

Let's consider a particularly downtrodden homosexual (you can probably think of someone who fits this description).

side from meliko, no.

He/she comes from a family of strait folk. His/her friends are all strait. However, He/she cannot hide from it any longer- they are inexplicably homosexual. This final dismal realization comes after years of denial, years of attempts at fighting back the unnatural urges. They are ashamed of their condition, and are afraid to come out of the closet or act upon their desires for fear of ridicule.

This is a typical story (along with a similair story for "straight" people) which I've heard regarding cases of paraphilias. I guess some people where able to change their identity to at least some degree. However many people who cannot succeed, like you say, there are also many who have altered their identity. Can't say whether it's conscious or not, and it's not necessarily healthy (depending on the result) but it's happened.

Consequently, they seek therapy. However, like so many like minded individuals before them, any attempt to change their orientation fails. Eventually the person usually comes to terms with his/her condition, and finally comes out of the closet.

Just a suggestion; you think perhaps they suceed less because they are forced into changing by other people, rather than doing it for themselves.

Anytime I try to fight it, I'll admit, it's not because of other people's opinions or being ostracized. I do it for the sake of gaining power. It's something I want, rather than something forced on me. If I have ben ostracized for anything, it's for openly refusing to be attracted to either gender.

What is to account for this phemomena? Why, none other than our friend the gene!

Wonder if paraphilias are genetic.

The mind and body work as a highly complex computer system. The surrounding environment dictates a certain situation. Our software (brain) signals the appropriate response, and the hardware (muscles, organs, ect) carry out the function. Concepts such as "Free will" and the "soul", as I believe it, are merely previous explanations of the brain's functioning developed back when there was insufficient scientific knowledge of it's inner workings.

And when you lack understanding of a way a person acts, you simply attribute it to genetics.

"Oh look that person robbed a bank! how could they do such a thing?"

"Must be genetics"

"That person is so highly religious I can't understand why!"

"Must be genetics"

"What does that girl see in that person. By all reason she should hate him!"

"Must be genetics."

[McCulloch]

And when you lack understanding of a way a person acts, you simply attribute it to genetics.
"Oh look that person robbed a bank! how could they do such a thing?"
"Must be genetics"
"That person is so highly religious I can't understand why!"
"Must be genetics"
"What does that girl see in that person. By all reason she should hate him!"
"Must be genetics."

To me, whether the behaviour is deterministic or not is mostly irrelevant to our reaction to that behaviour. I believe that all deliberate breaking of just laws is due to some form of mental illness. And so are other forms of anti-social behaviour.
Does that change anything? Well, yes. I do not believe that there is any merit in a simply retributionist penal or legal system. It serves no purpose. Does that mean that we let bad people get away with doing bad things? No. The fact that an anti-social or criminal behaviour is due to mental illness or to genetics does not change the fact that it is detrimental to society. We still must take action to either prevent or minimize the probability of such things occurring and to protect people from psychopaths.
All available evidence seems to support the hypothesis that sexual orientation is genetically determined. If it were shown that homosexuality was detrimental to society, then it should be treated as a genetic disorder. However, until there can be shown that homosexuality objectively is harmful to society, it should simply be treated as a genetic difference, not unlike the sinister left handed folks.