Italy's nominee to become the European Union's Justice and Home Affairs commissioner failed on Monday to win the backing of the European Parliament's Justice Committee, days after testifying that he considers homosexuality a sin.
The panel narrowly failed to endorse Rocco Buttiglione, who is currently Italy's European Affairs minister, said Jean-Louis Bourlanges, chairman of the Justice Committee.
Buttiglione said that he would fight for the rights of homosexuals, but would not back away from his statement that the lifestyle is sinful.
Isn't this the way it should be? Fight for the rights of homosexuals, but individuals, but define their lifestyle as sinful (Lev. 18:22).
Homosexuality
Moderator: Moderators
Post #161
http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp
Catholic Answers Special Report: Gay Marriage
Footnotes right at the bottom of the article. Read it carefully without preconceived points of view.
Saying somebody is using a strawman argument and then not refuting or showing why is the embodement of a strawman argument.
Use your own argument for your logic class.
Your sarcasm just reveals you're unsure about your own stance on the issue.
Catholic Answers Special Report: Gay Marriage
Footnotes right at the bottom of the article. Read it carefully without preconceived points of view.
Saying somebody is using a strawman argument and then not refuting or showing why is the embodement of a strawman argument.
Use your own argument for your logic class.
Your sarcasm just reveals you're unsure about your own stance on the issue.
Unsure
Post #162jjg, maybe Bernie isn't "sure", "certain" or doesn't believe that he possesses the most correct point of view (it seems you believe you do). I can accept that to a reasonable degree, mainly because the MOST QUALIFIED experts (medical, social and religious) don't sound a "sure" as YOU do.Your sarcasm just reveals you're unsure about your own stance on the issue.
I'd rather be wrong about all of this, than try (any longer) to convince you to throttle back, and realize you probably have a great deal more to consider.
If you believe the Bible says it is wrong, then I can accept that (it is what you believe). Even so, the Bible says a LOT MORE about the treatment of sinners than you and others prefer to emphasize. What I see of "Christians" and their behavior toward homosexual people, indicts them so readily, and most who express their highly-adamant disapproval of homosexuality appear to be the most blind to what they leave out of the WHOLE message which Jesus brought to this world. I'm merely ONE homosexual who manages to say this in a polite and calm way (I've had decades of practice), but many see the lopsided moral/social standards and religious-hypocrisy I'm pointing out.
You may be "sure", but your thoughts and knowledge do not define this issue as absolutely, as you seem to think or believe they do.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Post #163
I'm just presenting reasonable arguments.
Certainly, if you have reasonable counterarguments, I'd like to hear them. Just writing my argument off as a strawman is a bit annoying without refuting it.
I'm not presenting a theological argument.
Certainly, if you have reasonable counterarguments, I'd like to hear them. Just writing my argument off as a strawman is a bit annoying without refuting it.
I'm not presenting a theological argument.
What and Who is a Homosexual? Why?
Post #164jjg, I think I can understand where you are coming from.jjg wrote:I'm just presenting reasonable arguments.
Certainly, if you have reasonable counterarguments, I'd like to hear them. Just writing my argument off as a strawman is a bit annoying without refuting it.
I'm not presenting a theological argument.
I've spent nearly ALL of my life approaching this mentally, physically and spiritually; I'm nearly certain that I'm not the best person to be completely "rational" about it...but I can present some real-life experiences and viewpoints about homosexuality itself. I know it's not easy, simple or cut/dried. When I hear answers about it that are, I know very quickly such answers are only "partial".
I tried a lot of things over a long period of time (35+ years) to become "straight" (or not have homosexual feelings); prayer, religion and Christianity were at the TOP of the list (and are certainly still a part of my life). I was a homosexual when I became a Christian, and I still am over 3.5 decades later...I didn't ask for this and didn't seek to DESIRE it. The majority of anti-homosexual folk are SLOW to acknowledge there are people who have struggled to a level that they themselves would NEVER want to visit; but are unfortunately eager to stand (somewhat arrogantly) in judgement over those who have suffered and struggled so absolutely, because of this.
I answer this issue as a HUMAN being, not as a "homosexual" or as a "Christian" desperate to get out of it (been there all of my life); and once you accept yourself as a human being (which many don't want to happen), the inhumanity that comes of certain religious, social or scientific views are readily tested. For anyone who leaves out or degrades the humanity of another with those things, is clearly missing an important aspect of the total issue.
Some people can surely debate their way to winning an argument, but certainly not all winning conclusions are equal to THE truth or reality as a whole. Love touches upon that which many seek in life, better than anything I've ever known or experienced. And without that agape factored into every thought or move we make...things become dark and meaningless; I had to almost completely lose my faith to learn this.
-Mel-
Last edited by melikio on Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Post #165
Any apparent sacrcasm is not due to not being sure it is due to a growing annoyance with those who believe that what they believe is or isn't 'moral' or 'natural' behaviour should apply to all. It is a matter of individual choice.jjg wrote: Your sarcasm just reveals you're unsure about your own stance on the issue.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
Post #166
Cathechism of the Catholic Church 2358:
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter in their condition.
I'm not trying to judge you. I am just trying to show that their is reason to beleive homosexuality is disordered.
Perhaps look at the NARTH website and see what information they have.
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter in their condition.
I'm not trying to judge you. I am just trying to show that their is reason to beleive homosexuality is disordered.
Perhaps look at the NARTH website and see what information they have.
Knowledge/Application
Post #168To a degree, this is true. And one thing which can be debated in this, is how any given human heart translates reality itself.jjg wrote:bernee, i will disagree with you and leave it at that. We have intuitive knowledge of ethics; root ethics.
Although I see no real reason for people to reject religion altogether, I do see reasons to question certain things, even to work through them in "faith". For science cannot work through all human issues, anymore than religion can/does.
Every homosexual person is an individual and even those who happen to be "Christians" have (or will) endure parameters inside of reality itself, which affect directly how they view themselves and the world they are in. In fact, this applies to ALL people. The only thing I've ever seen anchor people (even more than "dotted-i" and "crossed-t" religion) is the kind of love that flows from God through people.
It was the carelessness, cruelty and lack of compassion of many heterosexual "Christians" that compounded my suffering as a (homosexual) human being for many years. Despite what people SAID was "love", their actions did not convey the same. And at the end of a long period of despair, all I really had was hope...floating alone in a sea of confusion.
If Christians don't work harder to understand and accept homosexual people as fallen human beings (just as they are), they as human beings will NEVER really help the problem; they will only be frustrated by it. LOVE is the only thing that will dispel that kind of confusion and frustration; yes, it is on both (or all) sides of this issue.
After countless episodes of seeing people talk the cliche' (...love sinner...hate sin...) rather than live it, my faith and trust in the "people of God" faltered tremendously, and along with it my view of the more standard Christian thinking. People seemed to talk around and avoid love...withholding it in such a selective fashion that I could no longer believe about Jesus, all that I had been told (my faith was affected). (Do these people actually reflect what Jesus is REALLY like? Is He THIS hateful toward me and other homosexuals? Is His compassion as limited as it seems to be, according to the behavior of His "followers"?) The questions came like an avalanche, crashing down upon my own frustration and life-long despair...at the very least, it seemed as if the very people who I thought would be family, were comfortable with rejecting me and what I was (for as far back in my life as I could remember). The talk of "love" was all around, but I rarely saw it put into action...that has had an effect.
What I surely realize now, is that God isn't hateful. I realize that God can call right/wrong, and not perpetually dehumanize. Jesus is the reason for my views concerning that; I have read about how He acted toward even the worst of sinners. No one had to explain their humanity to Jesus, as is often the case where homosexual people encounter "believers"; homosexual people are HUMAN BEINGS, not machines lacking the "proper" programming...waiting for the next Christian to WHACK them with KEY verses. In reality, many homosexuals are just BEAT-UP by life and clobbered by the swinging-logs stuck in the eyes of those who should know how to actually love them but frequently will not (agape/1Cor. 13; John 3:16). No, you don't have to say that homosexuality is "right", just treat PEOPLE the way you would like to be treated. Embracing the homosexual person, is NOT the same as encouraging their sin; and even if you have the literal view that such a person is not worthy to sit in your church, you could at least realize that the love you know (agape), is the love you need to show them.
And until many more Christians learn to show (actively) the love/grace they've been shown (John 3:16), to others (sinners), their relational problems with those other "people" will persist; causing their "words" to add up to nothing useful, edifying, nor liberating.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Post #169
As a Christian, you must accept that we all sin. We will sin til the day
we die. Of course one hopes to sin less, but "to err is human..."
In the most simple terms....are you going to spend your life trying to
improving yourself, or condemning others for sinning?
we die. Of course one hopes to sin less, but "to err is human..."
In the most simple terms....are you going to spend your life trying to
improving yourself, or condemning others for sinning?
Post #170
Mel,
We all sin and have our faults. I am just saying either through theology or natural human reason, homosexuality is a disorder.
Christ ate and associated with sinners but at the same time he didn't condone their sins.
Homosexuality is something you should work to at least abstain from and I'm not saying it is easy for you.
We all sin and have our faults. I am just saying either through theology or natural human reason, homosexuality is a disorder.
Christ ate and associated with sinners but at the same time he didn't condone their sins.
Homosexuality is something you should work to at least abstain from and I'm not saying it is easy for you.
