Homosexuality: A chosen trait, or gentetically aquired?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This question is a major underlying factor of the general homosexual debate, the answer of which can narrow the scope in questioning its morality.



Are people born gay, or do they choose to be?
Can someone be blamed for their sexual orientation, or is it subject to factors we have no control over?

[melikio]

Mel: Sexual relations is NOT the same thing as drug use or abuse; it is a completely separate topic.

No, but the same arguments are used to promote them both. And IMO perhaps that's why people are adverse to the idea, because SOME people say that they can't control their own desires and that lack of control puts them off of it. Prove that you can change it and you'd have better success.

I don't know if Christian views can/will change to fit reality; probably not. But I am certain that homosexuals don't exist primarily as a matter of "choice". The issue ultimately boils down to determining what right/authority people have (if any) to pressure homosexual people to "change" or "harness" their human sexuality. Again, not that Christians MUST approve of homosexuality, but that they realize, understand and accept the limitations of their ability and authority to control the behavior of other human beings.

Mel: The one possible good comparison, might relate to the concept of "sexual addiction", but that isn't something that is necessarily related to homosexuality exclusively. Homosexual people really don't have to wait around for a full understanding of what causes homosexuality, to be treated as they should be in this society. There is no reason to discriminate against those people, despite what we find "genetically" (with the exception of criminal acts or some form of victimization being involved). There is exponentially MORE of a danger in continuing to allow people to SMOKE (and gobs of science to PROVE it), yet there is no Constitutional Ban proposed to end THAT practice. (Wonder WHY that is?)

For the thousandth time, I'm not saying it's exclusive to gay people. I'm arguing the same thing for any sexuality. Stop taking it so personally.

For the 1001st time: How can a homosexual person not eventually take all of the bias, hatred, criticism, bigotry personally at many or at least some points?

I agree this issue isn't the same as racism, but try to tell an African American (which I am) that being called "nigger" or "oreo" (especially by a relatively hostile white person) isn't "personal". And maybe, just maybe you've illustrated (to me, at least) one of the more tangible social aspects of the overall problem:

That those who are off in 3rd-person-land about this homosexuality thing, don't realize just how much a part of a person homosexuality actually is. And perhaps that stems from the absolute fact, that too many Christians place their understanding or emphasis upon the though or belief that it is primarily a matter of "choice". I can't prove that here, but I sense that is at least a portion of the disconnect between those more tolerant of homosexuality and those who are adamantly against it.

And I think that the mitigating factor (which many fundamentalists ignore), is that even science hasn't determined exactly how/why people actually are or become homosexual. I can tell you right here, right now, if they had a pill to change it... I would have taken it by now; we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because I'd start a thread explaining how the gay-away pill changed my life.

Now, do you THINK I haven't applied Christianity, discipline and social adjustments to try controlling this condition? Even if you don't think I have, I don't see why you'd think that someone like myself, who struggled for literal decades with homosexuality, would not take things (especially those you seem ignorant about) somewhat personally.

This forum isn't a lab or some sterile environment, where all of what is shared is completely "disconnected" from all of those who are conversing/examining the issue. You already know my "bias", but it is up front and I'm telling you that it won't do one iota of good to pretend that there is nothing of "personal" effect in all of this. For one of my goals, IS to HUMANIZE (inject compassion into), not as 1John often says, "homosexualize" the perceptions surrounding this issue. I've experienced and argued with far too many Christians who approach their understanding of homosexuality and homosexuals, as if they are viewing lab-rats in a cage; well, it isn't really like that and so much is missed or never truly understood because people have such a "distant" approach.

Now, I understand IF one's religious aversion to homosexuality is so strong that a near-neurotic reaction takes place, but that is another issue that homosexual people no more control than their actual sexual-orientation; it's called "homophobia". It IS a separate topic, and it's not something that afflicts the majority of homosexual people who understand their sexual orientation for the most part. Yet, it IS something that many heterosexual-Christians ADD to the mix, when discussing homosexuality. And yes, homophobia can and often DOES often have a personal and/or convoluting effect upon the discussion of the subject homosexuality; it really cannot be denied. I have often found that it is often (not always) at the root of much bias, and anti-gay interpretations of biblical text. I'm not even saying that we can fix that part of things, but that those who are reasonable should realize it exists and does factor in to how it can affect participants in the related discussions.

So, rather than pretend that none of this affects me "personally", I find it fair to say that what you may be able to talk about from 3rd person perspective, is about things I have lived with or dealt with for several decades; that perspectives like mine need to be included, so that a HUMAN face remains upon the subject being discussed.

Many Christians do prefer to blow off the concept of "homophibia", but I can easily assure them, that the concept is more than just a mere "word".

-Mel-

[scorpia]

I don't know if Christian views can/will change to fit reality; probably not. But I am certain that homosexuals don't exist primarily as a matter of "choice".

No, more like a lack of realisation that they have a choice.

The issue ultimately boils down to determining what right/authority people have (if any) to pressure homosexual people to "change" or "harness" their human sexuality. Again, not that Christians MUST approve of homosexuality, but that they realize, understand and accept the limitations of their ability and authority to control the behavior of other human beings.

I have already posted;

Besides, it is their choice. I'm not arguing that their choices should be made for them. just that they have one. Don't group me together with those guys who are into re-education camps I'm not into that.

For the 1001st time: How can a homosexual person not eventually take all of the bias, hatred, criticism, bigotry personally at many or at least some points?

Am I being hateful? I didn't think so........ What's so hateful about what I say?

Now, do you THINK I haven't applied Christianity, discipline and social adjustments to try controlling this condition? Even if you don't think I have, I don't see why you'd think that someone like myself, who struggled for literal decades with homosexuality, would not take things (especially those you seem ignorant about) somewhat personally.

No, I don't think that you haven't. So maybe now we can get to the juicy bit of this argument and see where one fails and the other succeeds.

[melikio]

Mel: I don't know if Christian views can/will change to fit reality; probably not. But I am certain that homosexuals don't exist primarily as a matter of "choice".

No, more like a lack of realisation that they have a choice.

Ok, we have both shared opinions about this. It is perpetually debatable, unless people just decide to stop debating it. There is NO WAY to cause you to see and/or understand what I and countless other homosexual people have endured and struggled with. It's like arguing what it feels like to be "me". It's not worth much in this world, unless there's a relationship involved.

Mel: The issue ultimately boils down to determining what right/authority people have (if any) to pressure homosexual people to "change" or "harness" their human sexuality. Again, not that Christians MUST approve of homosexuality, but that they realize, understand and accept the limitations of their ability and authority to control the behavior of other human beings.

I have already posted;

Besides, it is their choice. I'm not arguing that their choices should be made for them. just that they have one. Don't group me together with those guys who are into re-education camps I'm not into that.

You see it as a choice, it may not be (and likely isn't) a choice to be homosexual. And a "higher" level of self-control should not be demanded or coerced from homosexuals than what is demanded or coerced from heterosexuals. Yet, the hypocrisy of justifying the intense persecution and discrimination of homosexuals exists... often leaving Christians in the wake, cluelessly wondering why "homosexuals" oppose them so. (Sigh.)

Mel:
For the 1001st time: How can a homosexual person not eventually take all of the bias, hatred, criticism, bigotry personally at many or at least some points?

Am I being hateful? I didn't think so........ What's so hateful about what I say?

I DO NOT KNOW YOUR INTENTIONS. I can only relate to you the effects of your intended actions. Do you come off as hateful and/or controlling? Yes, you do. And there are far more people who are that way toward homosexual people than they really should be. You may think/believe you are doing good and that you are right; I can't change that, but i can let you (and others know) how you are affecting me and others as human beings. That's just as important as your "beliefs" and select moral values. No one is going to take that belief (mindset) away from you, and you should NOT try manipulate others to swing over and be in line with it. There is NO biblical mandate, to seek the control of others' behavior as many have interpreted and applied the Bible. So, while your words may indeed not be "hateful" (face value), the effects of what you say can/do often communicate hatred. It's amazing to me, how many Christians don't realize what I'm pointing out; that people should just accept what they SAY/believe is right, merely because they have accepted it as such.

Mel: Now, do you THINK I haven't applied Christianity, discipline and social adjustments to try controlling this condition? Even if you don't think I have, I don't see why you'd think that someone like myself, who struggled for literal decades with homosexuality, would not take things (especially those you seem ignorant about) somewhat personally.

No, I don't think that you haven't. So maybe now we can get to the juicy bit of this argument and see where one fails and the other succeeds.

No, we cannot get "juicy" bits out of this. We haven't even agreed to accept the massive "chunks" that Christians and other homophobic folks tend to ignore time-after-time. Surely you are aware that homosexuals have tended to find ways around discussing this with people who seem to have have no real intention of treating them as "full" and "whole" human beings?

You should begin to notice this. The time where Christians get to totally define each and every moral issue for all human beings in this nation, is gone. Not that those who support the more fundamentalist thinking minimally compassionate views about homosexuality need to be shut down or drowned out, but that the real/practical answers intended FOR homosexual people coming from them, really aren't so good or wise. And that approach stands in high-contrast (clearly) to the WAY of Jesus and the message He actually communicated via His actions.

It took me many years to notice the problem that stems from today's "Christians", it's not that they are particularly wrong in rejecting homosexuality, but that they seek control and authority where only God should possess it. Additionally, they (by omission) tend to justify the MISTREATMENT of homosexual people across the board, "God must mean for them to be beat-down, because they're gay."

When I begin to see more "Christians" treat homosexuals the way they should be treating "sinners" and "enemies", then I'll believe they have really been illuminated from the inside out. Otherwise, I'll continue to scrutinize what most believe they know about homosexual people.

-Mel-

[scorpia]

There is NO WAY to cause you to see and/or understand what I and countless other homosexual people have endured and struggled with. It's like arguing what it feels like to be "me". It's not worth much in this world, unless there's a relationship involved.

What, you really think that gay people are the only kind to have this sort of problem? That you are the only one(s) on this planet that struggle this way?

If so, I've got news foir you; you're actually not alone.

You see it as a choice, it may not be (and likely isn't) a choice to be homosexual. And a "higher" level of self-control should not be demanded or coerced from homosexuals than what is demanded or coerced from heterosexuals.

Once again, I'm not saying it should be.

but i can let you (and others know) how you are affecting me and others as human beings. That's just as important as your "beliefs" and select moral values. No one is going to take that belief (mindset) away from you, and you should NOT try manipulate others to swing over and be in line with it. There is NO biblical mandate, to seek the control of others' behavior as many have interpreted and applied the Bible.

Can I, or can I not at least try to help others, if I have the ability, get some control, if they want it? To be honest, this has less to do with the Bible and more to d with my own detesting of the whole 'It's in my genes I've tried before but now it's hopeless! It's utterly utterly hopeless!" attitude.

No, we cannot get "juicy" bits out of this. We haven't even agreed to accept the massive "chunks" that Christians and other homophobic folks tend to ignore time-after-time. Surely you are aware that homosexuals have tended to find ways around discussing this with people who seem to have have no real intention of treating them as "full" and "whole" human beings?

Is this a debate on choice/ genetics, or is this just about the big bad homophobic fundies out there?

[melikio]

Evidence seems to point consistently to a genes as the root cause which either lies dormant or is triggered into causing the individual to have a homosexual orientation later in life. Such a finding makes many people -- both religious conservatives and homosexuals -- angry because their cherished beliefs are disproved.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm

It is "easy" to say it is "choice". But most any homosexual will inform you that no conscious choice was made. And while some may be lying or using that as an excuse, most probably are not. It garners no real sympathy or compassion in a world that has been generally taught/conditioned to HATE homosexuals. Since most people really don't understand wht homosexuality is, they don't know when and where they are stepping on people who happen to be homosexual; some don't care because they simply won't, and others don't care because they haven't been taught how to care. And that is evidenced in the way/s they talk to/about homosexual people; some form of communication akin to the extension of the crowd-mentality which doesn't merely express disapporval, but seeks to add misery to the lives of those who happen to be homosexual.

And those who literally seek to perpetuate the animus (exclusively and traditionally prescribed and directed AT homosexual people) do not want those who are open-minded to consider too deeply the HUMAN side of the homosexuality issue. After all, if some people (especially Christians) actually learn to relate to what homosexuality really is, then the sterotyping, bigotry and bias traditionally directed AT them, would likely be mitigated. So, intellectually there is good reason for a BETTER understanding of what actually contributes to a person being homosexual. And while it's not guaranteed to cause "comfort" on any given side of the ongoing arguments, it does at least inch us a bit further toward truth (in the overall, real and practical senses.

-Mel-

[melikio]

If so, I've got news foir you; you're actually not alone.

Go back, and find where I said that I was "alone"; there are millions of people who can mirror almost anything I pointed out. That most "Christians" aren't aware of or sensitive to the kinds of things I point out, is another issue altogether.

You see it as a choice, it may not be (and likely isn't) a choice to be homosexual. And a "higher" level of self-control should not be demanded or coerced from homosexuals than what is demanded or coerced from heterosexuals.

Once again, I'm not saying it should be.

Ok.

Can I, or can I not at least try to help others, if I have the ability, get some control, if they want it?

How are YOU going to do that, really? Got details, and proof that YOU can "help" someone?

To be honest, this has less to do with the Bible and more to d with my own detesting of the whole 'It's in my genes I've tried before but now it's hopeless! It's utterly utterly hopeless!" attitude.

Stop "detesting", and try learning that things aren't so neatly lined up in perfectly logical rows. I know we want them to be, but a truly honest person realize well enough, that human sexuality isn't a black/which issue. I mean, it would be ideal for it to be (and I once thought it was myself), but there is more to what sexuality is than most people find convenient to their own worldview. The limits should be aligned with the will of the individual, and the responsibilities that come with the freedoms they possess. People who leave victims in their wake, need to be noticed and affected (period).

Is this a debate on choice/ genetics, or is this just about the big bad homophobic fundies out there?

Homophobia can and likely DOES affect the bias of the data submitted to this "debate". Am I right or wrong?

I'm no sociologist, but I don't see how certain topics can be completely avoided, as "homosexuality" is certainly a massive topic. Unless you have some data that leads us ALL to some universal consensus, then you have to realize and accept that there are many intellectual angles from which various conclusions might be reached. I'm not one of those people who believe that the most sterile or clinical approach to a HUMAN issue, is necessarily THE correct way to get to the "real" answer. There is typically a massive RANGE of factors that BIAS causes most of us to emphasize or deemphasize (especially concerning the topic of homosexuality, and even moreso where the issue of "choice" is introduced).

No, I realize readily that I'm not "alone", but some anti-gay folks and many Christians aren't even close to really understanding homosexual people (they only say/believe they are); only God can see what's "inside". And as it relates to the topic specificially, the jury is still out on things being genetic, chosen or a combination of presently unknown factors. We generally know the BIAS of conservatives and traditionalists, and we know the same as it relates to liberal and progressive viewpoints. (And spiritually, I think that only God can address the issue within a person's heart.)

You think/say homosexuality is a "choice", but I ask you to PROVE IT. (Isn't that fair and reasonable to ask?)

-Mel-

[scorpia]

It is "easy" to say it is "choice". But most any homosexual will inform you that no conscious choice was made

I had already posted;

Mel: I don't know if Christian views can/will change to fit reality; probably not. But I am certain that homosexuals don't exist primarily as a matter of "choice".

No, more like a lack of realisation that they have a choice.

I had also posted;

You see it as a choice, it may not be (and likely isn't) a choice to be homosexual. And a "higher" level of self-control should not be demanded or coerced from homosexuals than what is demanded or coerced from heterosexuals.

Once again, I'm not saying it should be.

If it really makes you feel better why not argue about heterosexuality being a choice so you don't have to go an about homophobia all the time.

Evidence seems to point consistently to a genes as the root cause which either lies dormant or is triggered into causing the individual to have a homosexual orientation later in life. Such a finding makes many people -- both religious conservatives and homosexuals -- angry because their cherished beliefs are disproved.

[sarcasm]Yeah, because there's so much proof you're giving me that says I can't control myself. [/sarcasm]

So, whenever you've finished putting words in my mouth.........

Let's ask just how many artices can it take to stop a person believing in themself?

[melikio]

"All indications are that homosexuality is a choice."

http://www.allaboutworldview.org/causes ... ty-faq.htm

This is the view of "many", but certainly not "all".

This can be argued by scientific and religious laymen the world over, but what good is that if we really don't have THE absolute answer?

And that is one of the reasons I almost always end up at the bottom line:

How Christians actually treat homosexual people. For to the world and to any people at the visceral levels of our existence (Christians included), the most important effects originate from our hearts (consciences).

To many who are homosexual, they know it's no choice for them; and that resonates to the CORE of their being (even after years of soul-searching). Now, it's not shockng that ALL "Christians" or even "secular" people cannot accept this. But in a reality where it has been "normal" or "acceptable" to just PUSH homosexuality out of sight, it is going to be very painful to honestly examne what it is and isn't. I don't think that any of the "real" answers are going to make ALL people happy (not at all).

But I see distortions about and around what I know is true; proving that is in a "realm" all its own. Racism is KNOWN to be a terribly wrong thing by MOST human beings, yet people often indulge like it's going out of style. And it seems apparent that the unnecessarily-evil treatment of homosexuals is too frequently akin to that which stems from racism and outright bigotry.

Science is asking some good questions and doing important research into the question related in this topic. Still, I see no reason to rule out any factors which can affect any one person's analysis or conclusions about the topic. The conservative or traditional view addresses real concerns, just as the opposing view does. As much as it bothers some people to say it, I've almost always found the REAL or BEST answers to be toward the "middle", away from the extreme "left" or "right".

-Mel-

[melikio]

So, whenever you've finished putting words in my mouth.........

Don't take it so personally.

Look, I think I've stated what I wanted to say. Your words and mine will stand in the relative contexts presented.

Forget my analysis of your views; we're all going to learn one way or the other (in due time), if that's truly our goal.

I don't have THE answers, I only know why I believe what I do. I can't necessarily convince others of why I believe I'm basically right.

Peace,

-Mel-

[melikio]

My hope is to help my brothers and sisters in Christ see that the "web" of homosexuality is one that involves more than a simple choice on the part of those entrapped. Like all those overcome by sin, it involves a complicated process, one which can be overcome only with Divine help, together with the assistance of understanding and patience on the part of children of God!

http://www.churchesofchrist.net/authors ... hom_04.htm

Here is a sensible view (imho) that could "help" a homosexual person (unlike many other "Christian" views which merely repackage hatred).

-Mel-