Abortion

[Illyricum]

What are you thoughts/opinions on abortion?

[Piper Plexed]

Just a reminder this is a thread about Abortion in the Right and Wrong Ethics, Morality, and Sin
Sub-Forum
and the question posed is

Should woman in America (or anywhere for that matter) have the right to have abortion? Or should abortion be banned?

edited to fix question

[Daystar]

Again, this is not a theocracy. Being against something on moral grounds is not justification enough for banning it for everyone. If you cannot come up with a rational explanation for why the activity should be banned, then no matter how much you are against it, you cannot justify banning it in Western society.

[Day] Most Americans oppose same sex marriage, so don't make it look as though it's only Christians. Jesus didn't come to stop people from sinning, rather to show them a much better way; a way that ends up with eternal life and a more abundant life on earth. It's up to the individual to repent if he or she so chooses.

The beauty of this is that it works to your favor as well. You can't be forced into doing anything you don't wish to do (like for instance attending a mosque or a synagogue weekly) simply for moral grounds either.

[Day] The majority of Americans will not permit the definition of marriage to be turned upside down.

You keep saying "but what if it really is God's word?" The short answer is that it doesn't matter. We, in western society, have legalized countless things that are against God's word. "God said no" didn't stop Nevada from legalizing prostitution, alcohol is still going strong despite the strong religious sentiment against it, many western countries have legalized gay marriages, and pornography is very much alive and well. It doesn't mean that anyone has to partake in those activities, but the option is there. Without a rational justification for banning, it is simply a case of your feelings against someone else's feelings.

[Day] Just because God hasn't stepped in to stop abortion, homosexuality, pornography, etc. doesn't mean that those who practice such things will not stand before a just God who will judge every man according to what he has done, be it good or bad. God is patient and is not willing that anyone should perish (end up in hell) but that all come unto repentance. You can thank God that he doesn't judge us for our sins on the spot, as they deserve, or repay us according to our iniquities (Ps. 103:10). God is calling everyone to repentance. God is callling YOU to repentance. Are you listening?

But I don't impose, rather share

By banning an action, you are imposing.

[Day] Same sex marriage is the only thing that the overwhelming majority of Americans agree should be banned. This is one imposition that is worth it. What is wrong with your morals? You should be ashamed of yourself if you think men should mary men, and women marry women. You need to go see your papa

You can share your "better way" through conversation, counselling, or a myriad of other avenues, but the minute you attempt to legislate it you are imposing that view on others.

[Day] Apart from destroying babies and preventing sodomites from marrying each other, what other things do Americans and Christians want banned by law? There is a dysfunctional mentality that thinks killing babies and banging butts is OK. Have you forgotten the AIDS epidemic that Homosexuals brought among themselves? If it weren't for powerful and expensive drugs, it would have been far worse. Don't you know that God judged ancient cites for homosexuality?

Believe Jesus when he says, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish." (Luke 13:3) He loves you, died for you and wants you to have eternal life. Repent and turn to him. God will save you. Don't make the tragic mistake of thinking you don't need to be saved.

[Piper Plexed]

REMINDER
this is a thread about Abortion in the Right and Wrong Ethics, Morality, and Sin
Sub-Forum
and the question posed is

Should woman in America (or anywhere for that matter) have the right to have abortion? Or should abortion be banned?

This debate is not about gay marriage, sodomy, or how AIDS is an example of god punishing homosexuals.

[Daystar]

Ya know I generally avoid this topic, mostly because I am as uncomfortable with debating my right to self determination as I am with knowing others feel they have the right to be present during my gynecological exams and have a say in any subsequent discussions with my physician. That said there is a contradiction in the pro-life argument that I remain unable to reconcile.

I have always considered the following to be basic truths of my faith.
A- Faith in God and Jesus are a personal choice, one must accept to believe, Free Will being key to a relationship with God.
B. I am judged by God, ultimately God will determine if I lived a just life.

Why, when it comes to woman do so many feel they have the right to remove free will and to codify personal and subjective morals and beliefs into law thus removing free will from the equation.

[Day] Yes, we all have free will, but does it dovetail with God's. Man uses his free will to sin against God and obey God. We all function under the "choice" column. If the Divine standard is life, then who are we to take it? We may use our free will to justify what we think is the right thing to do. But if does not accord with God's will, then we have misappropriated our free will.

Are woman lesser beings that can not be trusted to make the right choices?

[Day] We use our free will to cohabit outside the will of God. That was our first wrong choice. Many times that cohabitation results in an unwanted pregnancy. Just because a baby results does not mean that God would want it aborted. That is the second wrong choice because man's free will does not accord with the will of God. I don't believe we can leave God out of this debate.

Assuming men and woman are equal in the eyes of God and will all meet their maker for judgment wouldn't any such intervention as laws that restrict free will be viewed negatively by God.

[Day] No, I don't think so. If we are his creation, and he has given laws and standards by which to live, and we choose to reject them, then we are using our free will in opposition to his laws.

In the end since most anti-abortionists are Christians where does Free Will and a Faith in Gods Plan go when they consider the right to self-determination for Woman?

[Day] Anyone's self-determination should accord with God's laws. God's plan does not contemplate destroying what he creates.

edited to add: As a Christian and a woman I would like to add that I find the whole pro-life argument insulting to my sense of self worth.

[Day] The worth of that which is formed in a mother's womb is equal to your worth. Imagine the pleasure that God has in the delivery of that which he created and the mother who bore it.

"Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring." (Mal. 2:15)

God's plan is for a man and woman to become "one" flesh in marrige for the purpose of raising godly children. His plan does not contemplate destroying what he creates and the purposes he has for them.

I promise that all reproductive choices that I have made in my life have been in keeping with my moral compass,

[Day] If our moral compass does not echo the morality of our Creator, then we are out of sync.

I also trust that my fellow woman will approach their choices in much the same way as I have and in the end we are all answerable to our maker or lack there of.

[Day] Consider what God's word says about life and how much he cherishes what he creates.

It is my body my life and my soul and I am responsible for these things alone.

[Day] We are not our own. We have been created by God for a purpose which is to love, glorify and serve Him.

"It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture." (Ps. 100:3)

"Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands." (Ps. 119:73)

We glorifiy God when we obey him. In the process he blesses us, and which is his will for all of us. When we disobey civil law, things don't go well. The same principle applies with Divine law. We have choices to make and we ae blessed when we make them in accord with God's will.

[Gaunt]

Piper, I think the majority of the debate has been on the narrower question proposed in response to Osteng's first reply.

Should woman in America (or anywhere for that matter) have the right to have abortion? Or should abortion be banned?

Daystar, I don't know what

Most Americans oppose same sex marriage, so don't make it look as though it's only Christians.

has to do with

Again, this is not a theocracy. Being against something on moral grounds is not justification enough for banning it for everyone. If you cannot come up with a rational explanation for why the activity should be banned, then no matter how much you are against it, you cannot justify banning it in Western society.

so, I don't think I can effectively reply to it. Homosexual marriage is not a rational justification for the banning of abortion.

Just because God hasn't stepped in to stop abortion, homosexuality, pornography, etc. doesn't mean that those who practice such things will not stand before a just God who will judge every man according to what he has done, be it good or bad. God is patient and is not willing that anyone should perish (end up in hell) but that all come unto repentance. You can thank God that he doesn't judge us for our sins on the spot, as they deserve, or repay us according to our iniquities (Ps. 103:10). God is calling everyone to repentance. God is callling YOU to repentance. Are you listening?

If God is against it, then God should be the one to judge for it. What right do you have to usurp God's authority in this matter? Let God deal with those who break God's law, and let Man deal with those who break the laws of Man.

Even if you think Abortion is Wrong, it does not make the banning of it acceptable. Without a rational justification for it that answers the arguments for allowing abortion, you are simply imposing your will on someone else based on your feelings. Great, it's a person and has worth. Abortion should still be allowed based on the rights and freedoms that are supported by the western world.

Whether God is calling me to repentance or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not women should be allowed to control their own bodies. Neither do my "sins". The Western world does not make laws based on sins. I continually say this, but we are not a theocracy. God's laws are not our laws, and though you may choose to follow God's laws in addition, forcing everyone else to is not acceptable. Removing the rights of people should take more than a "God said so."

Jesus didn't come to stop people from sinning, rather to show them a much better way; a way that ends up with eternal life and a more abundant life on earth. It's up to the individual to repent if he or she so chooses.

If Jesus himself didn't impose his views on others, what right do you have to? If it is up to the individual, why are you insisting on bringing the state into it? This sentence just confuses the heck out of me in connection with your stance on this issue. Whatever happened to "Resist ye not evil"?

Same sex marriage is the only thing that the overwhelming majority of Americans agree should be banned.

In this thread, I could not care less about homosexual marriage. I don't care that an overwhelming majority of Americans agreed it should be banned. In the 1800s an overwhelming majority of Americans agreed that women shouldn't have a voice in the democratic process, and that didn't make it any more right. Regardless, this is a tangent that is not in the scope of this thread to deal with.

This is one imposition that is worth it.

This sentence alone shows that you are not for simply sharing, but for imposing your will on another without rational justification.

What is wrong with your morals? You should be ashamed of yourself if you think men should mary men, and women marry women. You need to go see your papa

There is nothing wrong with my morals thank you very much. I do not know why you felt it necessary to attack me directly, but regardless. My morals dictate that I follow the Golden Rule. I would not want my liberty revoked because of someone else's feelings, therefore I do not try to limit the liberty of others based on my feelings.

I am not ashamed that I think two consenting adults should be able to enter into a contract and obtain the legal and economic benefits and responsibilities of it regardless of their respective genders. I don't know why you would be. My papa taught me to think for myself, so I'm not sure why I would need to see him (though he does make an excellent steak).

Apart from destroying babies and preventing sodomites from marrying each other, what other things do Americans and Christians want banned by law? There is a dysfunctional mentality that thinks killing babies and banging butts is OK. Have you forgotten the AIDS epidemic that Homosexuals brought among themselves? If it weren't for powerful and expensive drugs, it would have been far worse. Don't you know that God judged ancient cites for homosexuality?

Ok now this is just emotional bile here. It has nothing to do with the debate for or against abortion. With regards to "what other things do Americans and Christians want banned by law?" How about the prohibition of alcohol. Was that not pushed mostly by Christians? This will likely develop into another tangent, so that's all I'll say on the matter.

You are of course welcome to your opinion on whether or not it is the result of a dysfunctional mentality to have an abortion, but without a rational justification for that opinion it cannot be taken too seriously.

I don't believe we can leave God out of this debate.

No one is telling you to leave God out. The problem is that God is all you are offering.

[Piper Plexed]

[Day] Yes, we all have free will, but does it dovetail with God's. Man uses his free will to sin against God and obey God. We all function under the "choice" column. If the Divine standard is life, then who are we to take it? We may use our free will to justify what we think is the right thing to do. But if does not accord with God's will, then we have misappropriated our free will.

What about spontaneous abortion? This happens all of the time, was the fetus not viable? Why was the womb inhospitable? These questions largely go unanswered. To be honest as a gestational diabetic I could easily have lost my children early in pregnancy by mistake or on purpose, What if I through misunderstanding I did not modify my diet properly or over/under dosed my insulin the result would have been an abortion. What if in the case of my first pregnancy my daughter was still born because my Dr did not act quickly enough to C-sec me, would he be a murderer then? The only logical solution to my above predicament or any other of the countless predicaments a fetus and Mother may find themselves in is to establish personhood. The law is right to conclude that legally personhood begins when a fetus can maintain life separately from, the host mother. As I have said before in the forum of faith one can decide for themselves when personhood begins be it conception, at 4 months or at birth though the law must be fair and consistent and use facts not projections of faith. Fact is when a fetus is birthed it becomes a separate person from the mother, it is then named, given legal documentation of personhood (Birth Certificate) and here in America assigned a number XXX-XX-XXXX.
Miscarriages

Are woman lesser beings that can not be trusted to make the right choices?

[Day] We use our free will to cohabit outside the will of God. That was our first wrong choice. Many times that cohabitation results in an unwanted pregnancy. Just because a baby results does not mean that God would want it aborted. That is the second wrong choice because man's free will does not accord with the will of God. I don't believe we can leave God out of this debate.

I really don't see how this addresses my question, please reiterate why woman can't be trusted with their own self determination.

Assuming men and woman are equal in the eyes of God and will all meet their maker for judgment wouldn't any such intervention as laws that restrict free will be viewed negatively by God.

[Day] No, I don't think so. If we are his creation, and he has given laws and standards by which to live, and we choose to reject them, then we are using our free will in opposition to his laws.

Exactly that is what free will is, to accept or reject Gods Laws, when Gods laws become the laws of Man free will is removed through threat of man made consequences thus removing free will. I am then being forced to be a person of Faith and am not allowed the God given right to choose to believe and to choose to follow his laws.

We glorify God when we obey him. In the process he blesses us, and which is his will for all of us. When we disobey civil law, things don't go well. The same principle applies with Divine law. We have choices to make and we are blessed when we make them in accord with God's will.

I rather believe that we choose to Glorify God through free will and we are blessed. Mans Laws and Gods Laws are not the same. To make them the same is to remove free will.

[TQWcS]

I rather believe that we choose to Glorify God through free will and we are blessed. Mans Laws and Gods Laws are not the same. To make them the same is to remove free will.

You still have the freewill to commit the crime or not. There would just be a Earthly punishment. If you did something like in A Clockwork Orange that would be taking away freewill.

[Piper Plexed]

You still have the freewill to commit the crime or not. There would just be a Earthly punishment. If you did something like in A Clockwork Orange that would be taking away freewill.

How would a woman have free will if abortion is outlawed, it would be unavailable....period.

How about spontaneous abortion which happens all of the time and sometimes without the woman's knowledge of being pregnant, will there be a menses police and court system to determine if a woman was negligent in the care of her zygote? I know I am being a bit extreme though when I ponder the loss of control of my body this is what comes to mind. The reality is that most abortions happen within the first trimester actually I have never personally known a woman to have an abortion past the second month. Also within that time period I have known many women to miscarry for a whole variety of reasons, some preventable, some not, many we will never know why. The way I see it is that the movement to outlaw abortion is more about controlling women than some God given sense of morality. Like I said before it is the place of the Church to teach to preach to guide but when we start to codify morals into laws the line has to be drawn there, cause it is a slippery slope I would rather not take a ride on.

[TQWcS]

How would a woman have free will if abortion is outlawed, it would be unavailable....period.

Not true. It would become a black market commodity.

How about spontaneous abortion which happens all of the time and sometimes without the woman's knowledge of being pregnant, will there be a menses police and court system to determine if a woman was negligent in the care of her zygote?

If it wasn't intentional I don't see how you could press charges... If I had a child and he died of natural causes I doubt I would be charged for murder.

[Daystar]

If God is against it, then God should be the one to judge for it. What right do you have to usurp God's authority in this matter? Let God deal with those who break God's law, and let Man deal with those who break the laws of Man.

[Day] I'm not sure how this evolved from abortion to homosexuality, but those who believe in Jesus are commanded to be "light" and "salt" in a dark and unsavory world. Both abortion and homosexuality are against the will of God, as are the other immoral sins of adultery, theft and lying.

Even if you think Abortion is Wrong, it does not make the banning of it acceptable.

[Day] Yes, by man's standards, but not the one who will judge us.

Without a rational justification for it that answers the arguments for allowing abortion, you are simply imposing your will on someone else based on your feelings.

[Day] Regardless of my feelings, "Thou shall not kill" is not an emotion,

Abortion should still be allowed based on the rights and freedoms that are supported by the western world.

[Day] The "law" granting abortion will be overturned at the Bar of Divine Justice, if not sooner.

Whether God is calling me to repentance or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not women should be allowed to control their own bodies.

[Day] I didn't intend for it to have any connection with abortion, rather I was only "editorializing."

Neither do my "sins". The Western world does not make laws based on sins.

[Day] I would disagree with that. Laws governing adultery, murder, theft and perjury all have their foundation in the ten commandments.

I continually say this, but we are not a theocracy. God's laws are not our laws, and though you may choose to follow God's laws in addition, forcing everyone else to is not acceptable.

[Day] You are right that we don't have a Theocracy and it's a good thing we don't. But I think you're wrong in disassocating our laws, governing the above, from the Ten Commandments. If people fully obeyed just these four laws, communites would experience social and civil harmonylike never before. They violate these four because they reject the very first commandment: "You shall have no other gods before me."

Removing the rights of people should take more than a "God said so."

[Day] All I'm trying to say is that we will be subject to the one who gave moral laws to govern his creation. Sin is the transgression of God's laws. I agree that no court will ever rule that a law should be changed because "God said so." But the time will come when those who made laws that contravene God's laws will be accountable to Him. Please don't take any comfort in thinking that Roe v. Wade may never be overturned.

Jesus didn't come to stop people from sinning, rather to show them a much better way; a way that ends up with eternal life and a more abundant life on earth. It's up to the individual to repent if he or she so chooses.

If Jesus himself didn't impose his views on others, what right do you have to?

[Day] Do you think Jesus didn't use the influence of the Ten Commandments to show people right from wrong? You say that Jesus didn't impose his views on others. ITFP, Jesus didn't have "views." He is God and what he says is absolute. Secondly, he did impose his theology to show why we need his forgiveness. If God's law didn't say, "Thou shall not steal," there would be no transgression.

If it is up to the individual, why are you insisting on bringing the state into it?

[Day] Because the individual is responsible for obeying the civil laws whose source is the Ten Commandments. Who do you think ordained civil government? The Founders? No, God (Rom. 13:1-5) and they well understood this.

This sentence just confuses the heck out of me in connection with your stance on this issue. Whatever happened to "Resist ye not evil"?

[Day] Resist evil means don't pay back. The bumper sticker that says, "I don't get mad, I get even," is exactly what he was talking about. A follower of Christ is not to react the way convention tells us.

Same sex marriage is the only thing that the overwhelming majority of Americans agree should be banned.

In this thread, I could not care less about homosexual marriage.

[Day] Sorry, that was my mistake for picking up on something that Jose said in a previous message. I should have dropped it.

I don't care that an overwhelming majority of Americans agreed it should be banned. In the 1800s an overwhelming majority of Americans agreed that women shouldn't have a voice in the democratic process, and that didn't make it any more right. Regardless, this is a tangent that is not in the scope of this thread to deal with.

[Day] Agreed

This is one imposition that is worth it.

This sentence alone shows that you are not for simply sharing, but for imposing your will on another without rational justification.

[Day] Do you fear having something verbally "imposed" in a forum where you can respond with what you want?

What is wrong with your morals? You should be ashamed of yourself if you think men should mary men, and women marry women. You need to go see your papa

There is nothing wrong with my morals thank you very much.

[Day] If you think killing what God creates and find nothing wrong with same-sex union, then your morality is in strong opposition to God's.

I do not know why you felt it necessary to attack me directly, but regardless.

[Day] I would not classify this as an "attack" on you, rather your morality. (judging the sin, not the sinner If sin (evil) is not judged (discerned), then society collapses. Recall that ancient cites fell because they did not discern immoral behavior

My morals dictate that I follow the Golden Rule.

[Day] You are to be commended. But don't ignore God's other rules.

I would not want my liberty revoked because of someone else's feelings, therefore I do not try to limit the liberty of others based on my feelings.

[Day] There are moral standards that have been traditionally accepted. Your liberty is not being revoked when a nation stands up and says "NO" to wrong or immoral behavior. Liberty implies adherance and acceptance of traditional morality. There are people right now in hell who wished someone would have stood up and said, "Repent! Your behavior is immoral."

I am not ashamed that I think two consenting adults should be able to enter into a contract and obtain the legal and economic benefits and responsibilities of it regardless of their respective genders.

[Day] "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Prov. 14:12). This means that there are things that seem right to a person, but when held up against the light of the Divine standard, they don't pass muster. I don't believe that a law should be made that bans civil unions, but redefining marriage is another issue. Eleven states sent a strong signal and you can be sure that most Americans will not tolerate including same-sex in the definition.

I don't know why you would be. My papa taught me to think for myself, so I'm not sure why I would need to see him (though he does make an excellent steak).

[Day] Well, I do hope that your relatiionship with him extends well beyond the dinner table But I use "papas's knees" only to say that there was a time when Americans were far more moral than they are today. 50 years ago, you didn't have divorce like you do today. Back then, homosexuals stayed "in the closet." Woman brought their babies to term. Pornography was some babe in a two piece bathing suit. Since then, hem lines have gone way up, bust lines way down and there's nothing underneath. See how progressive sin is when moral standards do not have a stronghold in communities? Just give the devil and inch, and he takes a mile.

Apart from destroying babies and preventing sodomites from marrying each other, what other things do Americans and Christians want banned by law? There is a dysfunctional mentality that thinks killing babies and banging butts is OK. Have you forgotten the AIDS epidemic that Homosexuals brought among themselves? If it weren't for powerful and expensive drugs, it would have been far worse. Don't you know that God judged ancient cites for homosexuality?

Ok now this is just emotional bile here. It has nothing to do with the debate for or against abortion. With regards to "what other things do Americans and Christians want banned by law?" How about the prohibition of alcohol. Was that not pushed mostly by Christians?

[Day] To be honest, I'm not so sure about who wanted to ban alchohol. But I'll bet you a Big Mac that there are thousands of alcholics who would have wished that there should have been a ban. But llike I said, Jesus didn't come to stop people from harming or killing themselves through indulgent or immoral behavior. Man must be free to sin in order that he might see it for what it is: "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ' (Rom. 6:23)

This will likely develop into another tangent, so that's all I'll say on the matter.

[Day] I have confessed my error

You are of course welcome to your opinion on whether or not it is the result of a dysfunctional mentality to have an abortion, but without a rational justification for that opinion it cannot be taken too seriously.

[Day] I will agree, that in debating such things, reason and logic find an unwanted adversary when spirituality is introduced. There is a powerful reason for it .

I don't believe we can leave God out of this debate.

No one is telling you to leave God out. The problem is that God is all you are offering.[/quote]

[Day] I wouldn't say "all," but I do believe that God has the answer to injustice, racism, depression, failing marriages, troubled teens, drug abuse, anger, rejection, emotional hurt, etc. God is a healer, not a hinderance.

Have a nice day,