The Ten Commandments

[OnceConvinced]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). That’s 30% of the commandments! Is God’s ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like “thou shalt not covet” which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is…?

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (You’d think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as God’s concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as God’s main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

[Cathar1950]

Just a word or two:

The passages that mention "one law" for Jew and Gentile are, and have always been, considered to be referring to civil and criminal law, not to religious law. Gentiles living in Israel, for instance, were not required to be circumcised (slaves, yes. It was a different time).
It also seems odd that you would take exception to someone claiming the ability to "discern hearts and minds" and then presume to discern the heart and mind of God yourself.

In general, it isn't wise to pontificate on subjects about which one appareently knows nothing. Jewish teaching and Jewish law, for instance.

I am pretty much over my head and have more of an interest in the evolution of the writings and their backgrounds and influences.
As for the Law I am more with George Carlin but I think Paul over worked his ides about the Law and his Christ revelations. I don't think Jews would see the Law as a burden and other such Pauline Christian nonsense. That said I want to recall that even the Jews would not think their Law was for everyone and when the Persians were actually enforcing these laws they wouldn't judge another country by someone else's Law.
Sometimes the prophets looked at the laws as the covenant that if broken death others saw it as obedience to the prophets of all things and sometimes the king.
Sometimes you could repent and sometimes they couldn't.
Some prophets act like there isn't any Law.
Depending on the times and the places or when something was written.
Personally I do see some merit in religions. As a way of life, imagination, and social bonds the can be as wonderful as a pristine forest and sometimes scary.
It seems that any good Christians should obey all 613 laws and have Jesus in his heart with a personal relationship and be spirit lead believing everything the Bible say and relate it to his own times and life.
Jews they do what the decide to do and even recognize that God seems to have left it up to them. They can love their writings and find value and enjoy their traditions as the evolve still remembering.
Some Christians do the same.
I just don't see the need to make claims that are beyond their needs.
They so overstate their case as to make it unbelievable even with the supernatural,
I am just venting I guess,
Where were we?

[cnorman18]

Just a word or two:

The passages that mention "one law" for Jew and Gentile are, and have always been, considered to be referring to civil and criminal law, not to religious law.

Actually, that's both technically and historically inaccurate. Exodus 12 that if a stranger would be willing to partake in the passover they had to circumcised first. Numbers 15 also tells us the exact same thing:

Num 15:14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever [be] among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. Num 15:15 One ordinance [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the stranger be before the LORD. Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Once a gentile accepted the passover and was circumcised they were as if they were homeborn.

Gentiles living in Israel, for instance, were not required to be circumcised (slaves, yes. It was a different time).

That's true. Yet, if the volunteered to be circumcised they were allowed to do so.

All that is about conversion, which has been permitted since the days of Moses. It is not about those who choose to remain Gentiles, which was the subject of your initial post to this thread. Further, nowhere in Jewish teaching or law is it said that all Gentiles must or should become Jews.

According to the Talmud and Jewish law, it is actually forbidden for Gentiles to attempt to observe Jewish law beyond the seven Noachide laws which in Jewish tradition and teaching are obligatory for all humans - unless they choose to undergo formal conversion (which includes circumcision) and become Jews, as you noted above. If they become Jews, of course, they are no longer Gentiles, and so your statements do not apply.

I will be happy to provide links to verify all that on request, though a quick Google of "Laws of Noah" will verify it without my help.

It also seems odd that you would take exception to someone claiming the ability to "discern hearts and minds" and then presume to discern the heart and mind of God yourself.

Brother, I just read the word. Understanding God, His intentions, His character and His nature are, while complicated, not to utterly complex to understand.

Do you claim to know the mind of God?

How many Scripture quotes do you want on that subject? Let's start with "My ways are not your ways" and then consider the entire book of Job.

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? .....Surely you know, for you were born then, and the number of your years is many!" (Job 38:4, 21)

In general, it isn't wise to pontificate on subjects about which one apparently knows nothing. Jewish teaching and Jewish law, for instance.

I'm wondering if you might be willing to take your own advice? Brother if you are planning to come, come strong, and be prepared to quote the Torah and Tanakh.

Oh, I am. And are you prepared to quote Rashi and Talmud? If you plan to tell me about Jewish law and teaching, you'd better be.

You are new here. I should perhaps tell you that I am a former Methodist minister, seminary-trained in Old and New Testament studies as well as systematic and moral theology.

I am also a convert to Judaism myself, and have undergone the classes and individual study required of all converts - and a good deal more study and classes beyond that. I stopped counting the books on Judaism I have read at 300 or so. How many have you read, that were written by Jews? With what rabbis have you studied? At what seminary have you studied the works of what Bible scholars and theologians?

I know my way around the Bible and the teachings of Christianity pretty well, and I know my way around Jewish teaching better than you ever will. If you want to tell me about your own personal views of the Bible and the Christian faith, I have no arguments; you have every right to believe as you choose. But if you presume to instruct me in the laws and teachings of the Jewish people, you'd better "come strong" yourself and be prepared to quote not only the Bible, but Rashi, Maimonides, Akiva, Hillel, and the sages of the Talmud as well.

If you think that the Bible is all you need to understand Judaism, we're done already. That isn't Jewish teaching, and never was. The Oral Torah - the body of teaching and commentary and explanation that traditionally accompanied the Torah from its beginning on Sinai and is now largely contained in the Talmud - is, for Jews, essential to understanding both the Bible and the Jewish faith itself.

The details of Jewish law are not found in the Bible. If you think they are, perhaps you can show me where the details of Kosher slaughter are found, along with the details of how to make and lay tefillin and when, and the specific procedures and rituals required for formal conversion - along with many other traditions and teachings.

Speak of your own religion all you want; but if you're going to speak of mine and claim to know all about it and what it teaches and how it is and has been practiced -

Well, to quote a less-than-popular President of recent years, bring it on.

[RND]

All that is about conversion, which has been permitted since the days of Moses. It is not about those who choose to remain Gentiles, which was the subject of your initial post to this thread. Further, nowhere in Jewish teaching or law is it said that all Gentiles must or should become Jews.

The whole Torah & Tanakh speak of conversion brother. The entire imagery offered is about changing the heart and mind and looking towards God the Father. The COI of Israel had a responsibility to be "peculiar" in order to be an attractive force for God. Again, see Deu. 4.

BTW, just exactly who came out of Egypt? Hebrews or Jews? Steer me right if I'm wrong but I seem to remember it was a "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt and not a bunch of "pure breads."

After all, when Abraham was at first converted he was a "gentile."

According to the Talmud and Jewish law, it is actually forbidden for Gentiles to attempt to observe Jewish law beyond the seven Noachide laws which in Jewish tradition and teaching are obligatory for all humans - unless they choose to undergo formal conversion (which includes circumcision) and become Jews, as you noted above. If they become Jews, of course, they are no longer Gentiles, and so your statements do not apply.

We aren't talking about Rabbinic law brother - let's keep our discussion solely on the Torah and Tanakh. The origin of, and history of the Talmud is indeed questionable.

I will be happy to provide links to verify all that on request, though a quick Google of "Laws of Noah" will verify it without my help.

As they say, "Been there, done that." If you cannot, or will not, make your arguments from the book of Rav Moshe and the prophets then we haven't much to discuss.

Do you claim to know the mind of God?

Yeah, but a rather wee bit.

How many Scripture quotes do you want on that subject? Let's start with "My ways are not your ways" and then consider the entire book of Job.

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? .....Surely you know, for you were born then, and the number of your years is many!" (Job 38:4, 21)

Brother, two can play at that game.....

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Oh, and then there's Shema....

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Question: Can you reason and love someone you don't know?

Oh, I am. And are you prepared to quote Rashi and Talmud? If you plan to tell me about Jewish law and teaching, you'd better be.

Brother, that's mans law, mans tradition. Let's stay within the framework of the Holy Scriptures. I recognize Rabbinic law as much as I recognize Catholic law.

You are new here. I should perhaps tell you that I am a former Methodist minister, seminary-trained in Old and New Testament studies as well as systematic and moral theology.

Not to be rude or anything but you have no need to quote you resume to me. If you want to impress me make a logical argument based solely on the Torah and Tanakh which from what I have seen so far you have not done.

I am also a convert to Judaism myself, and have undergone the classes and individual study required of all converts - and a good deal more study and classes beyond that. I stopped counting the books on Judaism I have read at 300 or so. How many have you read, that were written by Jews? With what rabbis have you studied? At what seminary have you studied the works of what Bible scholars and theologians?

Well, I'm not a Jewsih convert so to speak. I'm an Israelite by spiritual circumcision and spiritual partaking in the passover lamb.

I have read a few books by Jewish scholars, not nearly as many as you have, but the ones I am most focused on are the 39 of the Torah and Tanakh.

I know my way around the Bible and the teachings of Christianity pretty well, and I know my way around Jewish teaching better than you ever will. If you want to tell me about your own personal views of the Bible and the Christian faith, I have no arguments; you have every right to believe as you choose. But if you presume to instruct me in the laws and teachings of the Jewish people, you'd better "come strong" yourself and be prepared to quote not only the Bible, but Rashi, Maimonides, Akiva, Hillel, and the sages of the Talmud as well.

As I've stated plainly and clearly Talmudic law and man made tradition are simply useless in the Kingdom of God.

If you think that the Bible is all you need to understand Judaism, we're done already. That isn't Jewish teaching, and never was. The Oral Torah - the body of teaching and commentary and explanation that traditionally accompanied the Torah from its beginning on Sinai and is now largely contained in the Talmud - is, for Jews, essential to understanding both the Bible and the Jewish faith itself.

That's according to you brother....not according to the scriptures themselves!

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

The details of Jewish law are not found in the Bible. If you think they are, perhaps you can show me where the details of Kosher slaughter are found, along with the details of how to make and lay tefillin and when, and the specific procedures and rituals required for formal conversion - along with many other traditions and teachings.

Lev. 17 is a start. But then again, it is fairly straight forward. No rituals were required, no blessings from the Levites.

BTW, keeping the law in little boxes attached to the forehead means absolutely -zero- to God. These are to be kept in the mind, the thoughts of man - not in little boxes! What did David say?

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Speak of your own religion all you want; but if you're going to speak of mine and claim to know all about it and what it teaches and how it is and has been practiced

Oh, I never claimed to know everything about "your religion" but I do know quite a bit about the Torah and Tanakh and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who inspired them.

Well, to quote a less-than-popular President of recent years, bring it on.

[cnorman18]

We aren't talking about Rabbinic law brother - let's keep our discussion solely on the Torah and Tanakh. The origin of, and history of the Talmud is indeed questionable....

If you cannot, or will not, make your arguments from the book of Rav Moshe and the prophets then we haven't much to discuss....

...And are you prepared to quote Rashi and Talmud? If you plan to tell me about Jewish law and teaching, you'd better be.

Brother, that's mans law, mans tradition. Let's stay within the framework of the Holy Scriptures. I recognize Rabbinic law as much as I recognize Catholic law....

As I've stated plainly and clearly Talmudic law and man made tradition are simply useless in the Kingdom of God.....

Oh, I never claimed to know everything about "your religion" but I do know quite a bit about the Torah and Tanakh and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who inspired them.....

If you want to dismiss 3,500 years of Jewish teaching and tradition and condemn Judaism as a false religion, and claim that you know the One True Truth, that's your privilege; but in that case we have nothing to talk about. You aren't talking about Judaism, but about your own arrogant and pontifical prescription for what Judaism ought to be. Thanks for making that clear.

I am under no obligation to prove anything to you, and you have no right to tell Jews what their religion should teach or what we should believe.

Have a nice day.

[I AM ALL I AM]

... and I know my way around Jewish teaching better than you ever will. ...

G'day Cnorman18.

This is a pretty bold statement.

Do you:

1. Have any proof to the veracity of this statement ???

2. Claim to know the future and what a given person will or won't know ???

Or is this part of a superiority complex that creeps out when you are questioned about the Judaic cult that you promote ???

[RND]

If you want to dismiss 3,500 years of Jewish teaching and tradition and condemn Judaism as a false religion, and claim that you know the One True Truth, that's your privilege;

Brother, there is scant, relevant information that the "Talmud" itself 3,500 years old. There is nothing in the Talmud other than a bunch of man's opinions and debates.

Also, keep in mind one thing. Those people that heard God speak and accepted His law as the covenant they would perform were not "Jews" but Hebrews. Huge difference.

Modern day "Judaism" has little to do with the Hebrew roots of which it claims.

but in that case we have nothing to talk about. You aren't talking about Judaism, but about your own arrogant and pontifical prescription for what Judaism ought to be. Thanks for making that clear.

The only thing I have made crystal clear is that I don't make arguments supported by any other truth than the Toraha, Tanakh, the Gospels and the Epistles.

Everything else is man's tradition.

I am under no obligation to prove anything to you,

Then don't "attempt" to correct me and show me where I'm "incorrect." If you do then most certainly you will have to prove something to me.

In that I've already shown you to be in gross error about what the Torah teaches as opposed to your "man made" tradition I would suspect you'd temper your arguments somewhat.

and you have no right to tell Jews what their religion should teach or what we should believe.

I never did that. I simply pointed you back to the Torah and Tanakh.

Have a nice day.

Peace out!

BTW keep this in mind, there is an old Roman legal maxim that says, "He who leaves the battlefield first loses."

[Goat]

... and I know my way around Jewish teaching better than you ever will. ...

G'day Cnorman18.

This is a pretty bold statement.

Do you:

1. Have any proof to the veracity of this statement ???

2. Claim to know the future and what a given person will or won't know ???

Or is this part of a superiority complex that creeps out when you are questioned about the Judaic cult that you promote ???

It's a matter of experience and understanding, and a number of years of Jewish learning verses understanding how certain groups make invalid claims about Judaism. It's not a 'superiority' complex at all, but an evaluation based on the evidence.

[RND]

It's a matter of experience and understanding, and a number of years of Jewish learning verses understanding how certain groups make invalid claims about Judaism.

I think modern day Judaism, which has so far departed from the absolute truth of the Torah and Tanakh in favor of "Rabbinic Tulmudism," makes the claims about its "religion" invalid in and of itself.

It's not a 'superiority' complex at all, but an evaluation based on the evidence.

Psa 59:7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords [are] in their lips: for who, [say they], doth hear?

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

[Goat]

It's a matter of experience and understanding, and a number of years of Jewish learning verses understanding how certain groups make invalid claims about Judaism.

I think modern day Judaism, which has so far departed from the absolute truth of the Torah and Tanakh in favor of "Rabbinic Tulmudism," makes the claims about its "religion" invalid in and of itself.

It's not a 'superiority' complex at all, but an evaluation based on the evidence.

Psa 59:7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords [are] in their lips: for who, [say they], doth hear?

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

[/quote]

Yes, the Jews view the Torah and the Tanakah as a 'living document' that has to be adapted for our times. That is just realism. Christianity does the same thing, many just deny they are doing that.

Fortunately,the Jews don't have to worry about meeting your expectations for what you believe they should believe

They just so happen to know their own scripture, and in depth, not out of context quotes too.

[Cathar1950]

If you want to dismiss 3,500 years of Jewish teaching and tradition and condemn Judaism as a false religion, and claim that you know the One True Truth, that's your privilege;

Brother, there is scant, relevant information that the "Talmud" itself 3,500 years old. There is nothing in the Talmud other than a bunch of man's opinions and debates.

There is othing in your Bible but the same, "a bunch of man's opinions and debates" and stories.