IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]
DIVINE INSIGHT:

Moreover, I find the verse that you have posted to be quite interesting and I use it frequently to defend my witchcraft against Christian criticism. The Christians often claim that witches get their power from Satan (just as Jesus had been accused of in the verse you've quoted).

However, like Jesus I use my powers for good works. Therefore, for the very same reasons that Jesus gave my powers cannot come from Beelzebub (or Satan) because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Therefore my powers necessarily must come from God, for precisely the same reasons that Jesus gave.

If what Jesus spoke is truth, then clearly it must also apply to me. I cannot do good works in the name of Beelzebub, demons, or Satan because that would be a house divided against itself.

So I find it rather humorous that Jesus himself has totally vindicated all witches who do good works. Because their power (according to Jesus) can only come from God. Only God's power can be used for good works.

I would like to invite you here DIVINE INSIGHT
The above post caught my attention and I would like to bring this to the light. Now in another thread I am under the impression you study Buddhism but claim not to be a Buddhist, correct?

I am totally against WitchCraft according to the Holy Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Leviticus 19:26 "Do not practice divination or seek omens"
...the list goes on.

Questions:
If Divine Insight claim to use WitchCraft for good, then could you or anyone else list those examples please?
Does one see WitchCraft as Good? or
Does one see WitchCraft as Evil?

Feel free to add on.

Thanks in advance,
Ace

[McCulloch]

We also need to be clear on the definition of evil. [...] the Scriptures mean when it speaks of evils. Evil is that which is not according to Adonai's ways. [...] It refers to a wide variety of activities, generally associated with false deities and spirits. [...] Adonai's people are permitted to be involved in the supernatural. [...] What differentiates the prophets and miracle workers of Adonai from magicians and necromancers is the source of there power. A prophet and miracle worker of Adonai is willing to bet his life on the fact that what he is doing is from the Ruach HaChedosh Adonai (Holy Spirit of Adonai) and no one else.

In other words, bluethread, what you are saying is that when your group, the believers in the One True God, are involved with the supernatural in a way approved by your God, it is a good thing. But when those who believe in a form of spirituality different from yours, get involved with the supernatural it is evil and reprehensible.

From where I sit, it seems no different from you saying, "My woo is better than their woo."

[czyz]

Divine Insight stated...

Do you mean the kind of witchcraft that has become popular in fairytales and Hollywood? Or are you talking about the serious practice of psychic transformations? One is impossible, the other is actually pretty mundane and practical, yet few people seem to truly understand it.

When posting on forums and using specific words, one assumes terms used are what is culturally understood. The term witchcraft is defined by Messr. Roget as
a : the use of sorcery or magic
b : communication with the devil or with a familiar"

Changing definitions to psychic practice or other definitions defeats the purpose of a particular thread. This thread dealt with witchcraft as is usually understood, and infusing other definitions for argumentative purposes obfuscates the debate.

[Divine Insight]

We also need to be clear on the definition of evil. [...] the Scriptures mean when it speaks of evils. Evil is that which is not according to Adonai's ways. [...] It refers to a wide variety of activities, generally associated with false deities and spirits. [...] Adonai's people are permitted to be involved in the supernatural. [...] What differentiates the prophets and miracle workers of Adonai from magicians and necromancers is the source of there power. A prophet and miracle worker of Adonai is willing to bet his life on the fact that what he is doing is from the Ruach HaChedosh Adonai (Holy Spirit of Adonai) and no one else.

In other words, bluethread, what you are saying is that when your group, the believers in the One True God, are involved with the supernatural in a way approved by your God, it is a good thing. But when those who believe in a form of spirituality different from yours, get involved with the supernatural it is evil and reprehensible.

From where I sit, it seems no different from you saying, "My woo is better than their woo."

That's exactly right. And it would need to apply to the to the two main Abrahamic sects as well.

In other words, there are the Jews, Muslims and Christians. And whatever sect is calling God "Adonai" then the other two are an abomination of Adonai.

This is precisely how these Abrahamic religions became what they are today. They were nothing more than competing cultures all trying to proclaim that they hold the patent right on "The One True God".

Although to be fair to the Jews, many Jews don't seem to be quite as arrogant about this as the Christians and Muslims are. Many Jews I've spoken with seem to give the concept of God a much wider berth and feel that their culture's interaction with God was only one example, whereas this same God could have appeared to other cultures in different forms and though different historical interactions.

But clearly the Muslims have proclaimed "Allah" to be the One True God, and with that they also hold up Muhammad as being the last true prophet of God.

The Christians proclaim the God of Abraham to be the One True God, with Jesus being his only true demigod son.

It's my understanding that the term Adonai is not even a name of a God but rather it's used in lieu of the God's name and simply means "Master" or "Lord". The actual God that is it associated with is YHWH the unpronounceable name of God associated with the Tetragrammaton which actually originated in Egypt and many people believe actually stood for the four spiritual elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Originally it wasn't even the name of a God. It's no wonder that it's not pronounceable it's not even a name. It's just a symbolic representation of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. What were considered to be be the four spiritual elements of all creation. That later got translated into Yahweh, and finally into Yehovah or Jehovah. They were trying desperately to find a personal name for a personified God.

But originally YHWH just stood for Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. And that was "god". It was a mystical view of God as being the essence of reality, not unlike the Eastern mystical view of God.

This evolved then to become the basis of the Abrahamic Religions and YHWH was taken to be some very mysterious unpronounceable name of a personified God.

The term Adonai was then used instead of the name of God which was deemed to be unpronounceable and Adonai simply means "Master" or "Lord". It was a way of addressing God without having to call him by name.

And ironically the whole idea came from magi in the first place. So the whole Abrahamic religion is just an offshoot of sorcery to begin with.

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 1 by acehighinfinity]

Witchcraft must be evil relative to good or else the practice of it it would not exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. It seems even good witches don't go to heaven. Witchcraft is cited as a work of the flesh which is in opposition to the Spirit of God.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5: 19-21

[McCulloch]

Witchcraft must be evil relative to good or else the practice of it it would not exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. It seems even good witches don't go to heaven. Witchcraft is cited as a work of the flesh which is in opposition to the Spirit of God.

If you presume that the Christian religion is true, then of course, other spiritualities including witchcraft are evil. But I don't think that debating the merits witchcraft is possible while presuming that it is both false and evil from the get go.

[YahDough]

Witchcraft must be evil relative to good or else the practice of it it would not exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. It seems even good witches don't go to heaven. Witchcraft is cited as a work of the flesh which is in opposition to the Spirit of God.

If you presume that the Christian religion is true, then of course, other spiritualities including witchcraft are evil. But I don't think that debating the merits witchcraft is possible while presuming that it is both false and evil from the get go.

The "merits" of any activity can be summed up by just knowing where (or where not) the results of practicing that activity will ultimately take a person. And we are talking about witchcraft here.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

[Divine Insight]

Witchcraft must be evil relative to good or else the practice of it it would not exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. It seems even good witches don't go to heaven. Witchcraft is cited as a work of the flesh which is in opposition to the Spirit of God.

If you presume that the Christian religion is true, then of course, other spiritualities including witchcraft are evil. But I don't think that debating the merits witchcraft is possible while presuming that it is both false and evil from the get go.

The "merits" of any activity can be summed up by just knowing where (or where not) the results of practicing that activity will ultimately take a person. And we are talking about witchcraft here.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

But you're not talking about witchcraft.

You're talking about what the Christian dogma claims about witchcraft.

The whole point of this thread is the fact that Jesus himself was accused of performing his witchcraft in the name of Beezelbub (or Satan). Jesus' defense was to claim that good works cannot be done by the power of Satan for if they were then Satan's house would be divided against itself.

Therefore anyone who does good works through sorcery or witchcraft can use the very same excuse that Jesus gave to defend the source of their magic.

In other words, if this defense is valid for Jesus (i.e. if Jesus spoke the TRUTH concerning this issue), then it must also be true for any and all witches and sorcerers who perform good works through their use of magic or witchcraft.

Jesus can't claim that this excuse is only valid for him.

Either his words are TRUE (in which case they must be TRUE for everyone), or his own defense against this actuation was a lie.

You can't have it both ways.

If Jesus told the TRUTH, then anyone who performs good works using witchcraft cannot be using the power of the devil because his house would then be divided against itself and would fall.

So says Jesus.

That was HIS excuse. And if it's a TRUE excuse, then it must be TRUE for everyone. You can't have other people then going around doing good works via the power of Satan because Jesus said that this cannot be done or Satan's House would be divided against itself and fall.

That's the whole point.

If Jesus' excuse for himself was TRUE, then it must also be TRUE for Wiccans who do good works. And Wiccans are only allowed to do good works, because if they are doing anything to harm anyone they are in violation of the Wiccan Rede of harming none.

So there you go. All Wiccan Witches are necessarily as good as Jesus and therefore their power can only come from the divine. And that's according to the words of Jesus himself.

So Jesus vindicated all Wiccans as necessarily obtaining their power from the divine. He claims that they cannot be using the power of Satan to do works that are against Satan because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

So there you have. Jesus endorses Wicca.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 16 by YahDough]

YahDough, you have provided evidence that the Christian apostle Paul believed that those who practice witchcraft shall not inherit the kingdom of God. What you have not done is to show that Paul's view on witchcraft is accurate. The question here is not whether witchcraft is approved or disapproved by the Christian religion but whether it is good or evil.

Now, Divine Insight is attempting to show that Jesus had a different opinion about this issue than Paul did. His effort is clever and could even be valid, but again not that relevant, except to show what the view of the Christian religion is towards witchcraft.

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

"Witchcraft" is neither good nor evil, it just is.

Do you have any experience with Witchcraft or this just own definition?

Now, the passages you gave in the bible are pretty badly translated.

Galatians 5:20 "..idolatry and witchcraft.."
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."

It wouldn't matter if I gave you a hundred scriptures listing Witchcraft/Sorcery. There is no mistake in the translation it is referring to 'Practicing Sorcery/Witchcraft'.

So, no, witchcraft, as a rule, is not evil.

Gees...how confident are you? I'm not interested in any assumptions. Either you have some experience or not??

Dictionary Witchcraft
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/witchcraft?s=t

Make no mistake, Witchcraft also uses craftiness too?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 16 by YahDough]

YahDough, you have provided evidence that the Christian apostle Paul believed that those who practice witchcraft shall not inherit the kingdom of God. What you have not done is to show that Paul's view on witchcraft is accurate. The question here is not whether witchcraft is approved or disapproved by the Christian religion but whether it is good or evil.

Now, Divine Insight is attempting to show that Jesus had a different opinion about this issue than Paul did. His effort is clever and could even be valid, but again not that relevant, except to show what the view of the Christian religion is towards witchcraft.

I think this is rather interesting too, because Paul could have been dead wrong.

Paul may have very well held the superstitious belief that all witches are evil and therefore cast evil spells. After all, Paul was just an evangelists presenting his own denominational beliefs.

It's clear that Paul embrace Psalms Psalms.14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul may then have incorrectly assumed that witches would be among those who do not believe in God. Especially in terms of how Paul viewed God.

However, Jesus preached that anything we ask in his name he shall do. John.14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

But what did he mean by "His Name"? The name Jesus? No of course not. Jesus was just the name of the physical body that Jesus was currently occupying in his temporary incarnation on Earth. If Jesus was claiming to be God, then when he said anything we ask in his name, means "In the name of God".

Now it is true that all witches do not believe in God. Neither are all witches Wiccans. But all Wiccans are witches. And Wiccans believe in God. They also believe that the powers they direct come from God.

No the Christians may argue, "But do the Wiccans believe in the Biblical God?"

But that's bogus argument. There is no such thing as a "biblical God". There either exists a creator or there doesn't. If there exists a creator then anyone who worships and calls upon this divine source believes in the Creator (the only God that exists). Therefore Wiccans not only believe in God, but they can't believe in the wrong God because they call upon the creator of all life. And that cannot be a false God.

So then the Wiccans are doing their magick in the name of God (which is the only thing Jesus could have meant). He certainly didn't mean to do things in the name of "Jesus". Jesus was just the name of his mortal body. Jesus is not the name of God.

So Wiccans are in total harmony with everything that Jesus taught, and it's Paul who has it all wrong. Paul grossly misunderstood what Jesus was all about.

Jesus said, John.14.12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You see, Jesus was clearly stating here that belief in God is from whence these powers come, because even he goes unto the Father. That was his source of power as he had previously claimed. His powers come from God not from Beezelbub, remember?

Jesus had no powers of his own. He was just a mortal man born of a mortal woman. All of Jesus powers came from God, and God is simply the creator of all that exists. The same creator that the Wiccans obtain their powers from.

So Wiccans are just modern day incarnations of Jesus. Assuming they do indeed follow the Wiccan Rede.

So Paul was wrong and had the totally wrong idea. Paul was an idolator of Jesus as a individual person. He didn't understand that Jesus was talking about his powers coming from God. Jesus had no powers of his own. He proclaimed himself that his powers came from God and not from Beezelbub.

So there you have it. Paul was wrong, the Wiccans are right.

The Wiccans are in perfect harmony with the teachings of Jesus. And Jesus himself proclaimed that they shall be able to do greater works than he.