Trolls on the Forum

[WinePusher]

It seems to me like there is a huge number of trolls that have recently joined this forum. Does anybody else agree, or am I just being delusional?

Luckily, I happened to join when there were an abundance of great debaters on this site and most of them have now disappeared:

ChaosBorders: GONE
AkiThePirate/LiamOS: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Lucia/Lux: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Abraxas: GONE
Jester: GONE
micatala: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
nygreenguy: GONE
achilles12604: GONE
McCulloch: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Murad: GONE
Zzyzx: GONE
cnorman18: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Confused: GONE

And what do we have now. We have a bunch of trolls that are bringing down the standard of debate on this site. I think we still have many capable debaters on this forum that post frequently, but the amount of trolls joining seems to be a problem.

1) Do you think that this forum has a 'troll' problem?

2) If so, do you think that the trolls are successfully bringing down the quality of debate on this site?

3) If so, what can be done about it?

Unless you are going to praise a user/forum member, do not mention his/her name. This thread isn't meant to be a personal assassination against anyone. I simply see a lot of these newer users as trolls and would like to know if anyone else agrees.

[Angel]

[Replying to post 1 by WinePusher]

I agree with you, WinePusher. I believe some of these newer members who are trolls are probably members who have already been banned and they've come back to cause trouble. I made a suggestion about adding a rule that in part involves improving the quality of debates on this forum and I've gotten a slow response along with some excuses which I try to be quick to shoot down. I'm trying not to be too pushy but I really have no choice when I feel that the tactic of 'buying time' (in hopes that the issue will die out, or that some better excuse will come up, etc.) is being used to AVOID dealing with the issues that I've raised. And if I'm wrong I'd prefer it if the moderators or any administrator prove me wrong by explaining precisely what I'm missing here and to do so in a reasonable time fashion like they would ANY OTHER member on here.

[Nickman]

I agree as well. I used to debate several times a day, now I just peruse the forum and add a post here or there. The amount of trolls and Poes has definitely gone up. The quality of debate has gone down. It seems that once you get into a good debate, someone comes along and messes it up.

[Angel]

It seems to me like there is a huge number of trolls that have recently joined this forum. Does anybody else agree, or am I just being delusional?

Luckily, I happened to join when there were an abundance of great debaters on this site and most of them have now disappeared:

ChaosBorders: GONE
AkiThePirate/LiamOS: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Lucia/Lux: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Abraxas: GONE
Jester: GONE
micatala: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
nygreenguy: GONE
achilles12604: GONE
McCulloch: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Murad: GONE
Zzyzx: GONE
cnorman18: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Confused: GONE

You forgot to mention Otseng. Even he rarely debates on his own forum. I'd love to misrepresent his views and drag him through countless number of posts before I admit that I'm misrepresenting his view or before I admit I have no real position or that I'm not really interested in the truth or consistency, etc, etc.

[cnorman18]

It seems to me like there is a huge number of trolls that have recently joined this forum. Does anybody else agree, or am I just being delusional?

Luckily, I happened to join when there were an abundance of great debaters on this site and most of them have now disappeared:

ChaosBorders: GONE
AkiThePirate/LiamOS: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Lucia/Lux: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Abraxas: GONE
Jester: GONE
micatala: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
nygreenguy: GONE
achilles12604: GONE
McCulloch: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Murad: GONE
Zzyzx: GONE
cnorman18: barely posts in debate threads anymore.
Confused: GONE

And what do we have now. We have a bunch of trolls that are bringing down the standard of debate on this site. I think we still have many capable debaters on this forum that post frequently, but the amount of trolls joining seems to be a problem.

1) Do you think that this forum has a 'troll' problem?

2) If so, do you think that the trolls are successfully bringing down the quality of debate on this site?

3) If so, what can be done about it?

Unless you are going to praise a user/forum member, do not mention his/her name. This thread isn't meant to be a personal assassination against anyone. I simply see a lot of these newer users as trolls and would like to know if anyone else agrees.

I TOTALLY agree. I have been virtually absent from this (formerly excellent) forum for quite a long time now, for precisely this reason. I have attempted to return several times; each time, I have been trolled and deliberately goaded and tormented by the kind of gameplaying that has been exhibited in the C&A thread on which I am currently active.

Calculated dishonesty and deception, deliberate, vicious baiting and goading, in tandem with smug refusals to even acknowledge counterarguments and protests -- these cannot be "handled in debate." Rulings from the mods have been tepid and timid at best, in the apparent hope that these vicious trolls will eventually exhibit some decency and good faith (no pun intended) in their posts, on their own. That hope is, alas, doomed to disappointment, and the trolls rock on.

It has even happened -- it happened to ME -- that outraged reactions and perfectly human responses to the trolls' baiting and smears, even when measured and reasonably expressed, have resulted in more energetic sanctions and interventions from the mods than anything applied to those who ACTUALLY and DELIBERATELY PROVOKED these reactions. This kind of stiff, inhuman adherence to the letter of the "rules," without a common-sense eye to the atmosphere and morale of this forum and to the feelings and perceptions of RESPONSIBLE members, is -- shall we say, counterproductive.

For starters: If a LIE is a LIE, and an OBVIOUS and BLATANT lie, there ought to be nothing "uncivil" about calling it what is -- and, even more importantly, there OUGHT to be some way to deal with the LIE ITSELF rather than placidly pretending it will be "handled in debate," because that approach has proven to be WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE over the last two years or so.

The gameplayers and trolls are being given a free pass, as long as they stay within the LETTER of the rules -- and those who are attempting to fight them and counter them are being hamstrung by a blinkered, lockstep devotion to those same ineffective rules. As long as this sort of thing is allowed to flourish here, and is therefore de facto condoned, this forum will continue its slide into mediocrity and irrelevance.

It's a tragedy. This was once a great place to hang out for intelligent conversation and meaningful, sincere and honest debate, and I counted many of its members as friends.

As it stands now, it's an unpleasant place filled with unpleasant people who come here only to torment and bait others. I might as well go into a biker bar and shout, "HARLEYS SUCK" as try to post an intelligent comment here. Intelligent replies aren't happening, but such comments draw the trolls like honey draws flies.

I'm tired of it. I doubt I'll be post here again, unless I see that this problem is finally getting the attention it deserves. And I'm not holding my breath. If the exits of the members named above, including myself, doesn't get anyone's attention, I don't think anything will.

[otseng]

I've gotten several PMs about this, so I'll address everyone here.

Let me state first that the primary goal of this forum is civility. All other goals are secondary in importance to this, including having an honest debate. I would love as much as the next person to only be engaging in debates that are rational, fully documented, carefully researched, and free from all fallacious arguments. But, this is not of main importance on this forum.

When you see trolls on the forum, you are free to engage with them (though I would discourage it). But, you are not free to call them liars, dishonest, a troll, or any other label. You are free to show where they are in error; and you should leave it at that.

So, if you attack a troll, guess who will more likely get admonished? Though you might not like it, it's the one who made the personal attack that will get reprimanded. Sorry if any of you do not like this policy, but it's been this way since the very beginning.

Personally, I'm open to ideas on how to make debates more "honest". But, I'm not open to placing more of a burden on the moderating team. And since I've been making most of the moderator interventions lately, that basically means more work for me. I have precious little spare time as it is. So, even to add 30 more minutes of work for me in a single day is difficult. Another difficulty is that I honestly do not see anybody that I can add as a moderator. Many posters have reports against them, so I do not see anyone that stands out as impeccable in following the rules.

Also, note that there are two sides to a coin. Even the "trolls" on the forum accuse the others as being a troll. Each side claims that the other is goading them and being dishonest. So, who's the one that is really being honest? Really, the only thing I can judge on right now is civility, not on who is being the more honest debater.

As for the debaters that are gone, it's a fact of life on the internet that people leave. Nothing is permanent. Different people have different reasons for leaving. And it's rare for anyone to last a long time on a forum. So, just because people have left does not mean much to me.

As for the forum changing, from my perspective for the past almost ten years, we have always had many poor posters. And there have always been few outstanding posters. So, I don't see this recent "huge number of trolls" that have recently been posting. It's been about the same for me judging from the post reports. So, unless people are not reporting them, I'm not seeing them.

The reason I rarely debate on the forum now is that I'm still in grad school and won't graduate until the beginning of next summer. And I have four kids ranging from infant to high school - that in itself takes up a lot of my time. Of course, I have a full time job also. I also help out with church. And I try to make time to exercise. And of course I run and moderate this forum. So, debating is a very low priority for me right now. But, after I graduate I plan on debating more often.

Let me give you one take away regarding trolls - debate them civilly if you're going to debate them at all. Civility on the forum is what is paramount. If you attack them, it is only going to lengthen the time it takes to boot them from the forum.

There is really only one distinctive about this forum - being a civil place to debate religion. I'm not going to change that and nothing else will be more important than this.

[Angel]

I've gotten several PMs about this, so I'll address everyone here.

Let me state first that the primary goal of this forum is civility. All other goals are secondary in importance to this, including having an honest debate. I would love as much as the next person to only be engaging in debates that are rational, fully documented, carefully researched, and free from all fallacious arguments. But, this is not of main importance on this forum.

Even if it is not the 'main' importance but I assume that you realize that logic, evidence, and honesty are still important factors of a debate. I question of what use a debate would be if these factors aren't present.

When you see trolls on the forum, you are free to engage with them (though I would discourage it). But, you are not free to call them liars, dishonest, a troll, or any other label. You are free to show where they are in error; and you should leave it at that.

So, if you attack a troll, guess who will more likely get admonished? Though you might not like it, it's the one who made the personal attack that will get reprimanded. Sorry if any of you do not like this policy, but it's been this way since the very beginning.

So you say in response to trolls, "leave it at that". That amounts to saying, whatever damage and distraction the trolls are doing to people's views and threads, it's okay in your good judgment. The trolls can damage and distract just as long as they do it "civilly". That has got to be one of the WEAKEST and most PASSIVE responsess I've heard in my life.

The ONLY reason I have to engage with a dishonest person or troll is because I have to protect my views and my threads and to keep other unsuspecting people from being misled. When I call out the dishonest person or troll for what they are just to get to specifics, your response to that is to punish ME and other debaters who are under the impression that THiS forum would only have mature and honest debates. Again, this is WEAK and PASSIVE on your part. You expect people to remain civil when their threads and views are being damaged and being filled with distractions?

Personally, I'm open to ideas on how to make debates more "honest". But, I'm not open to placing more of a burden on the moderating team. And since I've been making most of the moderator interventions lately, that basically means more work for me. I have precious little spare time as it is. So, even to add 30 more minutes of work for me in a single day is difficult. Another difficulty is that I honestly do not see anybody that I can add as a moderator. Many posters have reports against them, so I do not see anyone that stands out as impeccable in following the rules.

I don't feel sorry for you because you want to pass off this forum as being highly respected, high quality, and challenging but you refuse to do the work to foster an environment for such debates to take place. Based on your statements, the REAL issue here may be that you don't have the time and resources to accept/enforce these suggestions, and probably even some of the rules you already have on the forum, like rule #5 - supporting your claim with evidence. If you and your moderators can't handle the workload then I'd recommend that you lower your standards and get more moderators or at least let honest debaters moderate their own threads. No one would have as much interest than me in ensuring that MY threads stay on track in terms of civility, supporting views, etc.

Also, note that there are two sides to a coin. Even the "trolls" on the forum accuse the others as being a troll. Each side claims that the other is goading them and being dishonest. So, who's the one that is really being honest? Really, the only thing I can judge on right now is civility, not on who is being the more honest debater.

If I present evidence of someone claiming to have no views on God and then I catch them asserting some view on God, apparently you still wouldn't do anything about it.

[olavisjo]

.

If you and your moderators can't handle the workload then I'd recommend that you lower your standards and get more moderators or at least let honest debaters moderate their own threads. No one would have as much interest than me in ensuring that MY threads stay on track in terms of civility, supporting views, etc.

I have a suggestion that you can try.

Pick a topic you want to debate, then find someone who is willing to debate you.
Then start a head-to-head debate with that person.
Also, start a parallel thread where anyone who wants to post, in response to the topic, can post.
Then you and your H2H opponent can copy and paste any responses that you feel are intelligent enough to be included in the debate.
The trolls can still post in the parallel thread, but they will be ignored in the H2H thread.
This will effectively make you and your opponent the moderators of your own thread.

If I present evidence of someone claiming to have no views on God and then I catch them asserting some view on God, apparently you still wouldn't do anything about it.

This is a debate site, if I want to argue for something in one thread, I should be able to argue against it in another. The mark of a good debater is being able to argue effectively for or against any position. So, we should be allowed to hold contradictory views if we so desire.

[Angel]

.

If you and your moderators can't handle the workload then I'd recommend that you lower your standards and get more moderators or at least let honest debaters moderate their own threads. No one would have as much interest than me in ensuring that MY threads stay on track in terms of civility, supporting views, etc.

I have a suggestion that you can try.

Pick a topic you want to debate, then find someone who is willing to debate you.
Then start a head-to-head debate with that person.
Also, start a parallel thread where anyone who wants to post, in response to the topic, can post.
Then you and your H2H opponent can copy and paste any responses that you feel are intelligent enough to be included in the debate.
The trolls can still post in the parallel thread, but they will be ignored in the H2H thread.
This will effectively make you and your opponent the moderators of your own thread.

This would be good if I'm looking for a head-to-head debate but it would not be practical to challenge every single point I want to debate in a head-to-head format. Besides that, your suggestion does nothing to solve the problem of trolls and other dishonest behavior even in head-to-head debates.

If I present evidence of someone claiming to have no views on God and then I catch them asserting some view on God, apparently you still wouldn't do anything about it.

This is a debate site, if I want to argue for something in one thread, I should be able to argue against it in another. The mark of a good debater is being able to argue effectively for or against any position. So, we should be allowed to hold contradictory views if we so desire.

Yes this is a debate site and I should be able to figure out what I'm arguing against before arguing, esp. in a head-to-head debate that you suggested to me earlier. I shouldn't have to waste many posts arguing over someone's weak atheist position that SUPPOSEDLY involved NO views on God just to find that same weak atheist making claims that God doesn't exist. Then to have that person denying, trying to cover up, or flat out lying about their inconsistency. If this weak atheist believed God didn't exist then many posts were wasted and debaters and I were misled.

My issue is not so much restricting people from switching their position but rather it involves being able to know what a person's position is AFTER i inform them of their inconsistency that has to do with an ONGOING debate. You can't argue both as being logical and it would certainly be dishonest to keep shifting your position as soon as I disprove you on one and you deny it, lie about it, or continue being inconsistent AFTEr I bring it to your attention.

Now if you want to argue for or against a position just for PRACTICE, then you should have no problem admitting that you're doing it just to practice. If I bring up an inconsistency and you try to dodge it, hide it, or lie about it, then don't expect me to assume that you have good intentions.

[Darias]

I've been on other forums that have a rating system, a system which minimizes posts that receive negative attention. I personally don't like that system as good posts can be hidden along with bad ones.

The best way to avoid trolls is to not engage with them. If you must state your views, go ahead, but don't continue to drive yourself crazy if they're just in it to irritate you.

As of late, I've been busy with other things, but I always come back to this place because I think this forum has a great system even if trolls come and go.